The Evil in SSFH [SH Spoilers]

[MikeBridgeFour]

I don't know how to do spoiler tags, so I am stating here in the beginning of the post that there are spoilers for Mistborn: Secret History. If you haven't read that and also read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, you should not read this thread unless you don't mind those books being spoiled. Having said that, I will move on to my theory.

 

I believe the Evil mentioned in SSFH is the Ire. From what is known of the timeline the first era Mistborn books are set 200 to 300 years before SSFH. In it, the Ire seem to be working against people from Threnody or at least working to keep the Threnodites out of what they are trying to accomplish. The relationship seems adversarial with the Ire even stating that they had forces on the Threnodite border. The Ire are concerned about shadows from Threnody and have what seems to be some kind of fabrial that can sense whether someone from Threnody is within a day's march of their fortress.

I believe that at this point whatever happened to turn the shadows into the dangerous creatures we see in SSFH, hasn't happened yet. I believe this for a few reasons. One the Ire were concerned about a Cognitive Shadow from Threnody not a Shade. Two, Alonoe muses about the powers of Threnody wishing to join the main stage, which implies a level of intelligence and motivation that the shades don't seem to exhibit. And three, when Nazh meets Kelsier, he says, "One doesn't merely decide to become a shadow! It's an important rite! With requirements and traditions." This seems to imply that Shadows on Threnody were created on purpose and were seen as something good, at least when Nazh was there.

If Cognitive Shadows were on Threnody at this time but did not behave as the Shades we see in SSFH, then something happened to make them that way between Mistborn era one and SSFH. My theory, which has no actual support except that it fits with what little we know, is that the Ire did something to Threnody to prevent them from interfering with the Ire's goals. They did something to Threnody that fundamentally changed the way Cognitive Shadows behaved.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Pagerunner]

Hmm, it's an interesting thought. You're right, since we have seen definitive conflict between Threnodites and the Ire, that there could be deeper connections between the two worlds. However, I think we need to clarify between the Evil (which destroyed Homeland) and the Shades (which had always been on Hell). The Forescouts, including Silence's grandparents, left Homeland to colonize Hell before the Evil occurred, and they still had to follow the basic rules. So, we can take away that in the ~80 years since Hell was colonized (a generous estimate, but since William Ann was the daughter of one of the original settlers, it gives us a small upper boundary on the time), the Shades have always been aggressive towards the settlers. The Evil happened sometime between the original colonization of Hell and the time of SSFH, and it affected the Homeland, but not Hell (which had already been called Hell, and was referred to by that name in Silence's old book). The Evil is not responsible for causing the Shades to act as they do; the Ire could very have been behind the Evil as some kind of response to the Shades, but not to cause the Shades to act as they do.

 

Furthermore, I think Nazh's use of the term "Shadows" means that Secret History is after the colonization of Hell, which means the Shades had been violent since before he was born. To spell it out step-by-step:

• There were no Shades on Homeland, so Nazh would only curse as he does if he was born on Hell.
• Since Nazh was in Secret History, the story occurs after Nazh's birth, and therefore after the original colonization.
• As mentioned above, Hell was always known as Hell to the original colonists, so the violent Shades precede Nazh's birth, and therefore also precede Secret History.

Also, even though the Ire and Threnodites are in conflict, I'm not sure that their war is the primary goal of the Ire. They were looking for a Shard to pick up, and there are no Shards on Threnody. Roshar might be on their radar, since there is another dead Shard. (I wonder if we'll see any of them lurking around Shadesmar, waiting for something to happen to the Stormfather.) However, I agree with you that the Ire seem like more than a one-off group of villains; they have grand goals for the Cosmere, and I expect we'll see their touch elsewhere. Just maybe not with Threnody.

[MikeBridgeFour]

I think in my original post, I misconstrued the Evil and should adjust my premise. The Ire might not be the Evil that drove the Threnodites from their homeland. As Pagerunner correctly pointed out above, that could be a separate thing than what created the shades.

 

I still think the Ire are the reason that the shades behave the way they do. Although there is no actual support for why, more of a gut feeling. Threnody does not have a Shard so the Ire don't seem to have a reason to go there, but they do seem concerned about interference from Cognitive Shadows from Threnody to the point of placing forces on the border. If they did something to confine the Cognitive Shadows to Threnody it could have affected the way those Shadows interact with the physical realm creating the shades we see in SSFH.

The timeline is not exact on when SSFH takes place but Brandon has placed SSFH in the later half of the cosmere sequence but before the Stormlight Archive which should place it after Mistborn era one books. Nazh curses with the word Shadows not Shades as the residents of the forest refer to them and Nazh speaks of Shadows almost reverently. His using the word Shadows as a curse does not imply that he views them as bad anymore than someone yelling Jesus Christ is implying something negative about the Christian messiah.

[Pechvarry]

• There were no Shades on Homeland, so Nazh would only curse as he does if he was born on Hell.
• Since Nazh was in Secret History, the story occurs after Nazh's birth, and therefore after the original colonization.
• As mentioned above, Hell was always known as Hell to the original colonists, so the violent Shades precede Nazh's birth, and therefore also precede Secret History.

 

Occam's Razor says you're right, but I find it worth noting that if the Shades' behavior wasn't changed by the exodus to Hell, that means they were like this before they arrived. 

 

Nazh is a worldhopper, so it's entirely possible he knew all about Hell and the shades long before The Evil even happened.

[Yata]

Occam's Razor says you're right, but I find it worth noting that if the Shades' behavior wasn't changed by the exodus to Hell, that means they were like this before they arrived. 

 

Nazh is a worldhopper, so it's entirely possible he knew all about Hell and the shades long before The Evil even happened.

The Hell has lifeforms adaped by the presence of Shades (no predator at all) if the current situation with the Shades was recent, we will find an ecosystem not so stable.

The death of predators will create a lot of over popolation in the prey with great conseguences for the whole ecosystem.

 

This may be a proof for "the Shades was there with their manners and their rules" for a very long time.

[Shagomir]

I think the way that Nazh talks about Cognitive Shadows reverently and is sort of upset that Kelsier was able to become one himself without following the ritual indicates that (some) Threnodites no longer consider the Shadows to be evil, and that they actively create them for some reason. 

It's possible that Nazh comes from a Pre-Evil Threnody, as Mistborn is relatively early in the Cosmere timeline, and Nazh is already working for Khriss. 

That would mean that the Shades in Hell are some degenerate form of whatever it was that the previous inhabitants in Hell/Threnody did to create Shades/Shadows. 

[kenod]

That could mean that the current shades are basically like spren, they somehow came more into the physical realm, that way losing their intelligence.

[Erunion]

Hrmmm.... My gut is telling me that one of two things is true.

 

Either Nazh was born a LONG time after SSFH, or he was born a LONG time before SSFH.

 

If after: They've tamed the forest, maybe even beaten the evil, and made the shades to be less awful! Yay! Happy ending for everyone. Ish.

 

If before: The Forests of Hell used to be a populated continent. They would convert people to Shades using ceremony, and those shades would likely linger and talk and interact with people. 

Then Something Happened. 

By the time the Evil strikes the Homeland, all of Nazh's people have been destroyed and turned into shades, possibly for hundreds of years. 
 

So our options? A happy ending, or a horrific apocalyptic backstory. 

Somehow, I feel the apocalyptic backstory fits better: remember, a lot of SSFH's inspiration came from puritan colonists to North America. And what had happened to the native population? An epidemic had swept through the Americas, killing upwards of 95% of the population, leaving the colonists a post-apocalyptic, desolate continent to settle. 

[Pathfinder]

Well according to the coppermind chronology, SSFH comes up in the later half but before stormlight. Nazh was seen during the events of Era 1 mistborn. So that would indicate to me, Nazh was around prior to SSFH. 

[Erunion]

Well according to the coppermind chronology, SSFH comes up in the later half but before stormlight. Nazh was seen during the events of Era 1 mistborn. So that would indicate to me, Nazh was around prior to SSFH. 

 

Good research!

So are we banking on unspeakable tragedy then? Or is there a third option?

[The Invested Beard]

Good research!

So are we banking on unspeakable tragedy then? Or is there a third option?

 

Always bank on unspeakable tragedy. That way if you're wrong you're pleasantly surprised.

[Jonathon]

On 4/12/2016 at 1:19 PM, Erunion said:

 

Good research!

So are we banking on unspeakable tragedy then? Or is there a third option?

Okay so while out of the given theories here I find the 'unspeakable tragedy' most likely, it just feels like it's too easy. After all, our main evidence comes from a conversation between Nazh and Kelsier. What every happened to "there's always another secret"? I find it plausible that something else may have happened, or some other force is behind this. 

Also I remember a quote from the story that could easily be glanced by. Silence was speaking to one of her daughters and she said "Justice died in the homeland". While I could easily be overthinking this and it could just be nothing, what if she wasn't referring to the judicial concept of justice? What if, instead, she was referring to another shard? The shard of justice. Could it be possible that after Odium's fight with ambition another shard made its way to threnody, perhaps while Odium was distracted? Or maybe, the problem is that Odium wasn't distracted. If Odium noticed perhaps he came and destroyed justice and then that's what caused the "Evil" in the homeland. 

Finally, Brandon has said that Hoid doesn't appear in this story, however Peter Ahlstrom has suggested that he does appear. Could Hoid be Earnest? After all we know that Hoid generally appears before bad things happen, and Earnest appears at the beginning of the story and then once more at the very end. 

 

Anyway let me know your thoughts on my probably half-baked theories. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable on the cosmere so let me know any holes in my theories so that I could perhaps adjust them or even throw them away altogether. Thanks!

[A Secret Corner]

8 hours ago, Jonathon said:

Okay so while out of the given theories here I find the 'unspeakable tragedy' most likely, it just feels like it's too easy. After all, our main evidence comes from a conversation between Nazh and Kelsier. What every happened to "there's always another secret"? I find it plausible that something else may have happened, or some other force is behind this. 

Also I remember a quote from the story that could easily be glanced by. Silence was speaking to one of her daughters and she said "Justice died in the homeland". While I could easily be overthinking this and it could just be nothing, what if she wasn't referring to the judicial concept of justice? What if, instead, she was referring to another shard? The shard of justice. Could it be possible that after Odium's fight with ambition another shard made its way to threnody, perhaps while Odium was distracted? Or maybe, the problem is that Odium wasn't distracted. If Odium noticed perhaps he came and destroyed justice and then that's what caused the "Evil" in the homeland. 

Finally, Brandon has said that Hoid doesn't appear in this story, however Peter Ahlstrom has suggested that he does appear. Could Hoid be Earnest? After all we know that Hoid generally appears before bad things happen, and Earnest appears at the beginning of the story and then once more at the very end. 

 

Anyway let me know your thoughts on my probably half-baked theories. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable on the cosmere so let me know any holes in my theories so that I could perhaps adjust them or even throw them away altogether. Thanks!

All I have to say is...

 

[Solarserpent]

Perhaps the Ire worked with or messed with the people of Threnody. Both the Ire and Threnody seem to have very strong investiture in the Cognitive realm.  Perhaps they messed up the Investiture that was left over from Ambition. That Investiture may have been controlling/containing the transformation of people into shadows (cognitive shadows). Removing/Changing it may have caused the Evil to occur. Seems like a nice idea but lacks any proof. Just that for some reason the Ire were afraid of something coming from Threnody, had specific defenses against it. They also wanted to obtain a shard for protection or some strong reason.