IntentAwesome

Kaladin and What Sadeas Is Not

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Namely, alive. 

 

Does anyone else think that Kaladin is in trouble? Just hours after Sadeas' murder--and likely before the murder was even discovered--Kaladin takes off with a bag full of valuable spheres. Kaladin has a known grudge against Sadeas, has demonstrated publicly that he's fond of the idea of revenge, and has proven his fighting capability and his resourcefulness. It seems like he is the obvious culprit. 

 

I think Dalinar trusts Kaladin too much to immediately suspect him. But the other highprinces? And if Kaladin gets delayed on his trip to Kholinar (much like Shallan's extended stay in the Unclaimed HIlls), then it may seem more and more like Kaladin split. 

 

And will Adolin use this as an opportunity to divert suspicion from himself? Or will he feel guilty about betraying someone who has repeatedly saved his life? 

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Kaladin is now an open Radiant, who saved the king and Dalinar in perhaps one of the most flashiest rescues ever written, and he's known throughout the camps for how Dalinar trusts him. Someone's going to have to put up some serious falsified evidence up to even being up the notion that Kaladin killed Sadeas. Which of course, might happen. But no, I don't think he's in any immediate danger. Plus, iirc, wasn't Kaladin talking to Dalinar when Adolin murdered Sadeas at the tower? I think he has a solid alibi and enough people to back him up.

Edited by Onceler
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You're right. If I recall correctly, Kaladin was meeting with Dalinar when Sadeas was killed, but will they be able to pin the timing down well enough to prove that? Kaladin could easily have done it right before or right after that meeting. 

 

Judging from the guards' reaction to Shallan in Urithiru, and the fact that the Radiants' betrayal has been deeply indoctrinated in these people, I would say that Kaladin's Radiant status is more likely to make people nervous about him and his motives, rather than trust/revere him. I think it is enough for them to maybe not openly go against him, but not enough to remove suspicion. 

 

And, yes, Kaladin has repeatedly saved the King and the rest of the Kholin family, but is anybody else really privy to this knowledge except the Kholins? Did Sebarial witness his fight with Szeth? Dalinar is making strides politically, but it's still not clear that he has all the highprinces behind him. 

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That's an awesome theory, and I can definitely see how Brandon could choose to go that way. It would be interesting to see Adolin's sense of honor conflicting with his intent to keep his murder of Sadeas secret, and that could lead to him leaving in penance as some have suggested (with or without confessing first).

jW

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I personally would prefer if Kaladin stayed clear of those accusations. This isn't his arc, I'd rather if he stayed out of this one. Besides, as others have pointed out, he had a alibi: he was talking with Dalinar at the time. Afterwards, he was preparing himself to leave, so the probability of Kaladinbeing unaccounted for is extremely low. In other words, there likely are enough people to testify Kaladin was no where near the crime scenes.

 

This being said, the marks on the wall will point out towards a member of the exploration parties.... Sure Adolin erased his, but a keen eye would notice it. Moreover, he likely left other marks on the wall on his way there which he didn't erase and he likely didn't make the required new marks in the area he pretended to be in... Anyone investigating the crime scene would conclude a member of those parties likely is the culprit and since Adolin is the only individual unaccounted for... Now they likely won't narrow on him this easily, but Kaladin should be beyond suspicions.

 

As for leaving in penance, it isn't impossible, but I'd point out Brandon is already using the "exile" story arc with Szeth. I doubt he is going to use the same plot with another, more minor, character.

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Would be interesting whether the Alethi would even be capable of holding Kaladin. And I suspect Adolin would own up in those circumstances

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Those of you who think Dalinar might be a good alibi for Kaladin are forgetting of course that Dalinar has his own strong motives for eliminating Sadeas...

 

Plus, Kaladin has become a kind of enforcer for Dalinar, hasn't he? I would think a lot of Alethi would think that Kaladin was just Dalinar's hatchet man doing his wet work for him.

 

Need a better alibi.

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IndigoAjah is probably right. I don't see the Adolin we know and love letting Kaladin get blamed for a crime he didn't commit. 

 

Before anybody says "Oh, but he walked away from Sadeas without owning up! He`s a murderer! He`s going to go evil!" I'd just like to say... don't.

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To be honest, wouldn't leaving the shardblade next to the body have incriminated any suspects less? If it was just there they'd eventually decide that the culprit couldn't hide the blade during an escape and had to leave it, presumably only wanting to kill Sadeas. The trail goes cold faster. Now that it's gone, they'll look for the blade as the main lead, and if they do find it in the bush and realize it was thrown out the window then the suspicion falls towards people in that part of the building that would expect themselves to be seen in that area specifically soon after the murder.

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I think the more likely event is that Adoline will be found out and Dalinar will have to risk his Honor spren because I'm sure he'll say something like "we will bring the killer to justice" or something like that. I think Adoline is in more trouble than Kaladin

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Dalinar doesn't have an honorspren though. He just has Stormfather, who may not care for all we know. As a bondsmith he may eventually place keeping Alethkar together over causing an entire scandal to keep a promise or uphold justice. This is not the time for the Kholin house to be the subject of doubt.

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Dalinar doesn't have an honorspren though. He just has Stormfather, who may not care for all we know. As a bondsmith he may eventually place keeping Alethkar together over causing an entire scandal to keep a promise or uphold justice. This is not the time for the Kholin house to be the subject of doubt.

good point

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This is not the time for the Kholin house to be the subject of doubt.

And letting a family member get away with murdering a Highprince because he was a bastard anyway isn't going to make Alethkar any more united, nor it is going to help the Radiants keep the newfound legitimacy they gained after ending the War of Reckoning.

A leader must be impartial and have the right priorities. Unfortunately for the Kholins, keeping your family together ranks very lower than keeping your nation from collapse.

Edited by DreamEternal
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And letting a family member get away with murdering a Highprince because he was a bastard anyway isn't going to make Alethkar any more united, nor it is going to help the Radiants keep the newfound legitimacy they gained after ending the War of Reckoning.

A leader must be impartial abd have the right priorities. Unfortunately for the Kholins, keeping your family together ranks very lower than keeping your nation from collapse.

Actually, considering that particular Highprince was actively involved in trying to split up and destroy Highprinces so that he could claim power for himself, I think the Stormfather might be just fine with that. We'll see.

jW

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Actually, considering that particular Highprince was actively involved in trying to split up and destroy Highprinces so that he could claim power for himself, I think the Stormfather might be just fine with that. We'll see.

It is not about the Stormfather. It is about the stability of what remains of Alethkar, and about not losing the credibility the Radiants gained and will need, lest they be considered blasphemers and heirs of traitors instead of a return to what the Radiants of old once stood for.

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It is not about the Stormfather. It is about the stability of what remains of Alethkar, and about not losing the credibility the Radiants gained and will need, lest they be considered blasphemers and heirs of traitors instead of a return to what the Radiants of old once stood for.

I seriously doubt the Stormfather would be concerned, though, so Dalinar's status as a Radiant isn't likely in jeopardy (which is the part of the debate I was connecting this to). Sure, could cause all kinds of problems for the Radiants from the Alethi, but Dalinar's Bondsmith status is probably going to be fine.

jW

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There are more than one ramification for Dalinar to assess when it comes to Adolin murdering Sadeas. This sole event will impact Dalinar on several facets: military, political and emotional.

 

It is a political mess because, as others have pointed out, Dalinar can't profess to hold the higher moral ground if he fails to apply the written law to his own son. He can't be seen playing favorite, especially towards his own blood, for fear of destroying all the work he has achieved. There is also the fact, being a Radiant, Dalinar will face adversity. We would all be fools to think everyone is going to be pleased with the return of the Radiants and everyone will gladly follow Dalinar on the day he becomes one. The word Radiant is tied with fear, hate and mistrust: Dalinar can't afford to jeopardize the little trust he has managed to installed within the other princedom if he is to keep the kingdom united.

 

In other words, political ramifications will want Dalinar to take extraordinary measures against his son. Had the circumstances been different, Adolin could have likely walk out of the ordeal unscathed as he had cause enough to justify his actions and his princedom would have protected him. As it stands, his princedom will be his greatest enemy.

 

It is a military mess because by punishing Adolin, Dalinar is depriving himself of a valuable resource. Adolin does a lot of work around the princedom: he is Dalinar's right hand man and the new leader of the Kholin army. They can't spare him, he isn't easily replaceable, but they may have to remove him from the line of duty. It isn't a punishment if Adolin is seen to continue his day to day activities without any impact nor difference.

 

Hence, military wise Dalinar will have to work without Adolin.

 

It is an emotional mess because there is something fishy in between the Dalinar/Adolin relationship. Dalinar has groomed his perfect son to be exactly the man he wished he had been from the start without even giving any thought as to which man Adolin was to begin with. In other words, Adolin has been given a very strict mold to follow, a tight line to walk on and has never been allowed to make a mistake. To see his most prized creation commit the worst of crimes will severely impact Dalinar. The emotional ramifications will bring him back to his warmonger years as the Blackthorn and the deception will make him react more harshly than he would have had the culprit be anyone else, but Adolin.

 

Emotionally wise, Dalinar will have to prosecute a son he alternatively loves and hates for having failed to meet his expectations. How far can Dalinar push it before his "father's instincts" quick back in? How deeply are those buried when it comes to his eldest son?

 

This being said, it will be complete mess on all front. I get the sad feeling Adolin is going to be a piece of chess being thrown on every side of the board without anyone sharing any thought as to whether they may be irrevocably hurt him.

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Could someone upvote rmart for me?

Fat fingers on my phone, sorry about that!

Anyways, this is Adolin's arc. I'd like to see him take responsibility at some point, honestly. I don't think a Dustbringer would try to hide from this, and I really want Adolin to be a Dustbringer

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Could someone upvote rmart for me?

Fat fingers on my phone, sorry about that!

Anyways, this is Adolin's arc. I'd like to see him take responsibility at some point, honestly. I don't think a Dustbringer would try to hide from this, and I really want Adolin to be a Dustbringer

 

Done! 

 

Speaking of Adolin's arc, I'm actually fairly convinced about Edgedancers (I-don't-remember-who wrote a venerable essay about this that has me thoroughly convinced), and given the possible "let's revive the Blade" arc, it's either this or Truthwatcher (and honestly, does anyone see Adolin as a Truthwatcher?). Not to mention that with his Blade skills, Adolin could be really, really awesome with Abrasion. Dustbringers could also be interesting, plot- and characterization-wise, but still, I'm firmly with Adolin-as-Edgedancer camp. 

 

Out of curiosity, if I may, why Dustbringers? Something about their Order or Adolin himself?

 

Generally, though, I'd agree that Adolin isn't the one to hide himself when accusations for his actions fall on somebody else's head. The only other option I could see would be Ialai blackmailing him with the knowledge to get him to do <insert something nefarious here>. Ooor... why not both? Ialai threatening blackmail, only for Adolin to shrug it off and reveal his participation in the murders himself... I'm not quite certain if this would be more funny or more heartbreaking.

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Anyways, this is Adolin's arc. I'd like to see him take responsibility at some point, honestly. I don't think a Dustbringer would try to hide from this, and I really want Adolin to be a Dustbringer

 

I hope it will be Adolin's arc, but I fear it may turn out being solely Dalinar's arc... As much as it saddens me, there is the possibility Adolin isn't an important enough character to own his personal arc. It may be Adolin will continue to act as a foil to everyone else, much to my greatest despair, but I don't think Brandon intends to write much of Adolin.

 

This being said, Adolin can't be a Dustbringers. For one, based on the little we know, he is unsuitable for this order. For second, Brandon confirmed we would need to wait for proto-Dustbringer to become a main character before we learn more about them. Moreover, this character may or may not have had a POV, which marks him/her as a rather minor character into the present tense story. As a result, Adolin, who can't be anything else than a minor KR, won't be used to explore an order for which the main protagonist hasn't been introduced yet.

 

It is practically impossible, narrative wise, for Adolin to become a Dustbringer which combined with the fact more advanced and detailed character analysis practically rules out this order for him. 

 

It is a near impossibility.

 

 

Done! 

 

Speaking of Adolin's arc, I'm actually fairly convinced about Edgedancers (I-don't-remember-who wrote a venerable essay about this that has me thoroughly convinced), and given the possible "let's revive the Blade" arc, it's either this or Truthwatcher (and honestly, does anyone see Adolin as a Truthwatcher?). Not to mention that with his Blade skills, Adolin could be really, really awesome with Abrasion. Dustbringers could also be interesting, plot- and characterization-wise, but still, I'm firmly with Adolin-as-Edgedancer camp. 

 

It was probably me B)  I tend to be the one who writes such essay, whenever they are requested  -_- As for the Truthwatcher, I don't know where you get this idea... Adolin's Blade as been confirmed as an Edgedancer Blade, there is no Truthwatcher looming into this theory. 

 

 

Out of curiosity, if I may, why Dustbringers? Something about their Order or Adolin himself?

 

There are several reasons why posters started to place-hold Adolin within the order of the Dustbringer. In book, the order has been described anger-filled and feared all across the land: their surges appear rather powerful which made most people think they would suit Adolin the Soldier. Also, since Adolin is seen to react in anger to certain stimulus, namely when he killed Sadeas, a lot of people thought it would make him a prime candidate. Combining these idea with the fact we were lacking the 10th flashback/main protagonist for the longest time, many of us thought the last spot should go to Adolin, more so since no one else listed befit this order.

 

Turns out not only Adolin is not getting the last spot, Shalash is, but he won't even ever be promoted to main protagonist which came out as a knife being thrust into the heart of his numerous fans  :(

 

As for the remainder of the theory, it doesn't pass in-depth character analysis. Adolin may react with anger, but it mostly is an expression of his emotional side: in other words, as an extroverted feeler, Adolin reacts to new unexpected situations by strong emotions first. Anger is just one of the emotion we see him channeling: there is also fear, joy, excitement, nervousness and sadness. They all make an interesting mix as we see Adolin surf on these as events unfold around him up until he gets shove too hard into one corner.

 

Also, the Dustbringer's main attribute is bravery. A lot of readers took it Adolin surely was very brave, which nobody is going to argue with, but it strikes to many he would need to be extraordinary brave in order to fill-in the order's requirement, just as Kaladin is extraordinary protective. Turns out Adolin isn't so brave when you further analyse him. He is very brave when it comes to battles, fights, but deep down, he is scared of developing relationship with others... a fear he has yet to both acknowledge and confront.

 

People are going to argue having fears is the main requirement to be called brave, to which I would answer facing his fears certainly isn't Adolin most striking attribute. He doesn't face his fears, he shoves them deeper within himself. Combined with the fact Adolin is more keen on helping others than soldering, warfare or anything traditionally "Dustbringer-related", it more or less puts the last nail into the coffin of this theory.

 

 

Generally, though, I'd agree that Adolin isn't the one to hide himself when accusations for his actions fall on somebody else's head. The only other option I could see would be Ialai blackmailing him with the knowledge to get him to do <insert something nefarious here>. Ooor... why not both? Ialai threatening blackmail, only for Adolin to shrug it off and reveal his participation in the murders himself... I'm not quite certain if this would be more funny or more heartbreaking.

 

Adolin doesn't deal well with changes, uncertainties and is deeply insecure. The snarling over-confidence wrap in arrogance is just a front: the real Adolin is afraid he won't meet up to his father numerous expectations. He is basically afraid to fail, so having to deal with actual failure is going to be extremely hard for him. 

 

I don't see Adolin owning the murder or reacting with an excess of self-confidence, not when he has shown himself to deal quite badly with unexpected circumstances. Based on the character we have read so far, the logical reaction would be for him to crumble under stress and anxiety as he tries to process and accept the fact he has just broken down all of his father's hopes, dreams and expectations. Adolin has never been allowed to make a decision for himself: all his life he has followed Dalinar's lead and done exactly what Dalinar asked him to do. The one department his father gave him the freedom to choose, marriage, he backs away each time a girl gets too close, deeply afraid he won't be good enough, he won't meet up whatever expectations the girl may have. He can't make this decision, he is too afraid, hence he is relieved when Navani takes it in her hand. It is also why he is happy for the arranged courtship with Shallan. 

 

Adolin doesn't want to make decisions. He wants to be told what to do, because as long as it isn't his choice, he can't truly fail. Now he has taken a decision and it was a horrible one. He has failed his father.

 

He can't possibly realistically deal with it by shrugging it of before he deals with the rest. It would be terribly OOC for him to behave in such a nonchalant way. It is Adolin we are talking about, Adolin who gets nerve raked because there is a glyph written on a wall, Adolin who spends an entire night at his father's doorstep, in his Plate, for fear the Assassin may come back which leads to later fail at controlling his own Blade. 

 

If he is that nervous after those events, let's try to imagine how nervous he'll be after murdering Sadeas.

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Well, letting someone get away with murder is a serious problem . . . but technically since Dalinar basically runs the place nobody has to know :ph34r:

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Well, letting someone get away with murder is a serious problem . . . but technically since Dalinar basically runs the place nobody has to know :ph34r:

 

It isn't I disagree with you, but I think Dalinar is too honorable to keep it a secret  :ph34r:

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I thought it was Skybreaker that Adoline couldn't be a member of, and that Sanderson specifically said Dustbringers would still take him? Could someone check on that for me? I'm not really sure where to begin...

 

Also, I feel like the original question is based on flawed assumptions. The question you should be asking is: Given what the people have seen of Kal's abilities, and how little they know about his limitations, would any of them be brave or stupid enough to chalenge his honor? If he has the ability to walk into a back hall somewhere and murder someone - which is what they'd be claiming, wouldn't they want to be VERY careful about how they went about accusing him? Too, it seems like Alethi culture is largely Might Makes Right at this point. If you don't have the power to fight someone or assassinate them, you're not going to challenge them. Given Kal's healing abilities, it seems unlikely they'd try that approach either. If any of them have two brain cells to rub together at this point, they're not going to try and pin this on Kal.

 

... and I want this to be Adoline's and Dalinar's arc(but mostly Adoline).

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I thought it was Skybreaker that Adoline couldn't be a member of, and that Sanderson specifically said Dustbringers would still take him? Could someone check on that for me? I'm not really sure where to begin...

 

Also, I feel like the original question is based on flawed assumptions. The question you should be asking is: Given what the people have seen of Kal's abilities, and how little they know about his limitations, would any of them be brave or stupid enough to chalenge his honor? If he has the ability to walk into a back hall somewhere and murder someone - which is what they'd be claiming, wouldn't they want to be VERY careful about how they went about accusing him? Too, it seems like Alethi culture is largely Might Makes Right at this point. If you don't have the power to fight someone or assassinate them, you're not going to challenge them. Given Kal's healing abilities, it seems unlikely they'd try that approach either. If any of them have two brain cells to rub together at this point, they're not going to try and pin this on Kal.

 

... and I want this to be Adoline's and Dalinar's arc(but mostly Adoline).

My thing with this is people are largely ignorant of the radiants and what their abilities are. The people immediately at the battle (most of which are dead, or already on the Kholin side) are the only ones that got to see what Kaladin can do. Waves and waves of people were thrown at Szeth, and he had a massive body count under his belt. Didn't stop them from trying. The typical population and rulers wouldn't know that Kaladin is practically a one man army. Then the question would be, would Kal murder someone just to prove he can to make everyone fall in line and still be able to be a radiant holding to his oaths? I think not. Now regarding the secret societies that do know what a radiant can do, they could come up with ways to deal with them. Nale (although yes he is a herald), was very effective in dealing with radiants and all he needed was a little winged crab thingie. If these secret societies are as powerful behind the scenes as they seem, I do not think it is far fetched that they could get their hands on one or more themselves. Then you have a radiant with no stormlight, no healing, and no abilities except the spren blade, which arguably would mean little if your surrounded by archers/crossbowmen that fill you with arrows/quarrels. 

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He can't possibly realistically deal with it by shrugging it of before he deals with the rest. It would be terribly OOC for him to behave in such a nonchalant way. It is Adolin we are talking about, Adolin who gets nerve raked because there is a glyph written on a wall, Adolin who spends an entire night at his father's doorstep, in his Plate, for fear the Assassin may come back which leads to later fail at controlling his own Blade. 

 

The "shrugged" part was very much a mental shortcut of mine - I know very well he wouldn't be able to take this easily. I must admit, I personally hope that if Ialai tries to blackmail him with Sadeas' murder, he'll do the right thing (as far as there can be such thing as "the right thing" in this mess of a situation) and go to his father, but I fear - and agree with your analysis - that he'll hide this out of his fear of revealing to his father that he failed him.

 

Hmm, it would be interesting if Dalinar's flashbacks dealt not only with his time merrily unifying Alethkar under Gavilar's banner, but also his relationships with his kids. This could be as close to "Adolin book" as we're likely to get.  :(

 

My comment about the Truthwatcher referred to the fact that they're the only order beside Edgedancers who have the Progression to bring the Blade back to life. As I said, unlikely Adolin would end up joining them, especially given his Blade.

 

... and I want this to be Adoline's and Dalinar's arc(but mostly Adoline).

 

I think it will be. Keep in mind that Kaladin ended the story flying off to Hearthstone. I suspect his arc in Oathbringer will be taking place largely in Desolation-torn (or is it?) Alethkar, while Urithiru business will fall to the Kholins.

 

Funnily enough, his absence may actually help fuel rumours that he's the one who murdered Sadeas - after all, an absent man can't defend himself, nor can he cut you down for accusing him. This could give Adolin some sort of "alibi" and cover, which he might be thankful for, even if he'll spend all of his waking hours and larger parts of his sleeping ones fearing the day someone discovers it wasn't Kaladin but him. What I'm getting at is that even seeing Kaladin getting accused, he might not come out and reveal the truth until Kal is about to be prosecuted for the crime he didn't commit.

 

Another question would be, of course, what Shallan will have to say. Adolin is extrovertic - she'll notice something's off about him. Here's hoping he won't drive her away with his behaviour, which, knowing his relationship history, might just happen.

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