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Nethseäar

Hemalurgic Idea and Question [Bands Spoilers]

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Idea: Use hemalurgic bullets to allow Harmony to control Set members. As an agent of Harmony, it makes a lot of sense to have a dedicated gun for shooting hemalurgic earrings. Of course, Harmony would need to be complicit, and I don't know how he'd feel about that, but he was willing to do it to stop Paalm, so why not for Telsin?

Question: Can hemalurgy be used to steal memories? It stands to reason that it could, seeing as you can steal physical strength (Koloss) and such. If so, hemalurgy could be used against captured spies, and becomes all the more terrifying. 

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Idea: Use hemalurgic bullets to allow Harmony to control Set members. As an agent of Harmony, it makes a lot of sense to have a dedicated gun for shooting hemalurgic earrings. Of course, Harmony would need to be complicit, and I don't know how he'd feel about that, but he was willing to do it to stop Paalm, so why not for Telsin?

Question: Can hemalurgy be used to steal memories? It stands to reason that it could, seeing as you can steal physical strength (Koloss) and such. If so, hemalurgy could be used against captured spies, and becomes all the more terrifying. 

Well you need bullets that are hemalurgic so you'd have to kill someone else and also precisely hit a bindpoint.

Hemalurgic copper I believe can be used to that effect, not sure how accurate it would be though and you'd need a lot of research before you could use it for interrogation. It'd also probably drive you insane.

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Voidus if I remember right the Cognitive Human's Attributes Stealable through Hemalurgy are already on the books and there is no "memories", therefore you problably can't steal memories.

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Plus humans require more spikes to be controlled. While Telsin may have enough spikes (her and Edward knew the limit for control and used one spike less I believe) that one more could allow control, I doubt other members are allowed as much power. Kandra are also less likely to need specific bind points to make a spike active than humans.

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Well you need bullets that are hemalurgic so you'd have to kill someone else and also precisely hit a bindpoint.

Does the spike need to hit a bindpoint for the 'controlled by Ruin' effect to work?

Speculation:

My impression is that having a spike placed anywhere increases influence by Ruin. But evidence for or against that impression is uncertain. I thought I saw a WoB to the effect that kandra created organs around hemalurgic spikes, and therefore their bindpoints could be just about anywhere.

Now, of course, I can't find the WoB. The closest I could get is that they have 'fluid bindpoints' (which could mean: changeable but they need to make the appropriate organ to be spiked, or literally fluid so that everywhere is a bindpoint).

When Bleeder was shot with the earring, Harmony was able to take control. Did Bleeder create an organ around the earring, thus giving it a bindpoint and allowing Harmony to take control? I don't think so - there was neither time nor definite desire to make an organ. So, if kandra need organs for bindpoints, this suggests that an unbound spike still lets Ruin influence you. 

On the other hand, Bleeder fell onto spikes to change them without being controlled. Did she create the necessary organ and carefully position herself to ensure the spike would be bound? The process is definitely much easier if it doesn't require organs for bindpoints, and the spike merely needs to pierce a kandra anywhere to be bound.

There is also the issue of initially awakening kandra -- do mistwraiths instictively form organs around spikes, and therefore bind them to gain sentience? Or, more likely, are the spikes bound simply by being inside the mistwraith, and organs are not required?

Hero of Ages has scenes where Ruin is using Marsh to spike people -- I vaguely recall him sometimes being less particular toward the end about where to spike people. I'll check through and see if there is any evidence to be had there.

As an aside,

Wax's earring works for Harmony to contact him. Vin's earring was bronze, and apparently the earlobe is a bindpoint for bronze, because she was granted additional Seeking power. Does that mean Wax's earring is made of bronze? If so, apparently the kandra are very limited in the making of Pathian earrings -- only the bronze spikes can be used. Or, if it isn't bronze, it's not in the appropriate bindpoint for whatever metal it is. (Unless there's some overlap in bindpoints, or left ear is bronze, right is another metal . . . we know so little!) Which would suggest that, for Ruin to influence you, the specific bind point is less important, or not at all important. We haven't seen Wax gain any power from the earring, but since it's probably extremely decayed, that doesn't mean anything.

SO: If you do need to hit a bindpoint, the whole thing is much less practical. But I'm not sure you actually need to.

As for the bullets being hemalurgic, you can just use the Kandra supply of hemalurgic earrings as bullets, and re-use them as necessary. Admittedly, there aren't many, but maybe enough for four shots, to be re-used.

 

 

Plus humans require more spikes to be controlled. While Telsin may have enough spikes (her and Edward knew the limit for control and used one spike less I believe) that one more could allow control, I doubt other members are allowed as much power. Kandra are also less likely to need specific bind points to make a spike active than humans.

True, and it would be of limited use for that reason. But on a mission to stop Telsin, it's exactly the kind of Ranette-tech for the job.

 

Hemalurgic copper I believe can be used to that effect, not sure how accurate it would be though and you'd need a lot of research before you could use it for interrogation. It'd also probably drive you insane.

 

Voidus if I remember right the Cognitive Human's Attributes Stealable through Hemalurgy are already on the books and there is no "memories", therefore you problably can't steal memories.

Copper seems the appropriate metal for stealing memory, if such a thing is possible. The Coppermind says the Hero of Ages Ars Arcanum says Copper steals human mental fortitude, though apparently the Mistborn Adventure Game does have it stealing memories. Even though MAG isn't canon, that's intriguing. Since hemalurgy is the least well defined of the metallic arts, and there is so much subtlety to determining what to steal, I wouldn't be surprised if memory can also be stolen by copper. After all, Pewter, Brass, Bronze, Aluminum, Duralumin, and Gold all steal sets of power -- the specific power stolen is determined by the placement of the spike. Who knows. We've already seen more from hemalurgy in Era 2 (Chimeras, smaller spikes, kandra gaining allomancy from hemalurgy, using blood to prevent decay), and almost no one knows that it even exists. The future is wide open for terrifying hemalurgic discovery.

And if nothing else, apparently MAG players can have deliciously dark Big Bads who will spike the memory out of captured spies, and drive their fanatical followers insane by giving them the memories so they can reveal secrets.

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I see using Hemalurgy to steal Feruchemical Copper as stealing capacity for memory, rather than the persons actual memory. Having a copper spike would grant you increased short or long term memory capacity, or perhaps perfect recall for more memories (The Lord Ruler?).

Edit: That's largely because I see Feruchemical Copper as a memory storage system, not specifically as memories. It stores the ability to recall memories, therefore, not the memories themselves (those never leave your mind and are just recalled when you tap).

jW

Edited by Jondesu
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That cannot be true, because then the coin medallion Wax receives from Hoid would be useless.

Instead it plays back a 300+ years old memory.

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Edit: That's largely because I see Feruchemical Copper as a memory storage system, not specifically as memories. It stores the ability to recall memories, therefore, not the memories themselves (those never leave your mind and are just recalled when you tap).

 

That cannot be true, because then the coin medallion Wax receives from Hoid would be useless.

Instead it plays back a 300+ years old memory.

Indeed; we know from Sazed in Era 1 that Feruchemical Copper actually does store memories, not the capacity to remember. Metalminds are like libraries, and need to be indexed for ease of access. Memories of words/thoughts are easier and more useful to store than sights, smells, or touch, because those degrade so quickly.

 

I see using Hemalurgy to steal Feruchemical Copper as stealing capacity for memory, rather than the persons actual memory. Having a copper spike would grant you increased short or long term memory capacity, or perhaps perfect recall for more memories (The Lord Ruler?).

It's confirmed in the Hero of Ages Ars Arcanum that you can use Hemalurgy to steal Feruchemical Copper (using Brass to steal Cognitive Feruchemy), and thus expand your capacity to remember by storing memories. But I mean that in addition to stealing Feruchemical Copper, it wouldn't be unreasonable or surprising if Hemalurgy can also steal actual memories. After all, it's confirmed that Hemalurgy can steal both Feruchemical Copper and mental fortitude. Why not also memories?

Hemalurgy can steal Feruchemical Petwer (Hemalurgic Pewter), Allomantic Pewter (Hemalurgic Steel), and plain old physical strength (Hemalurgic Iron, used to make Koloss). The three are aspects of the same thing, especially Feruchemical Pewter and plain strength. (Allomantic Pewter also enhances reaction time, balance, and coordination, but Feruchemical Pewter is just strength, through muscle mass).

Since:
1) Strength can be stolen in three different ways, each a different kind of strength
2) One kind of metal can steal multiple abilities (some metals can steal any one of a set of 4 Allomantic or Feruchemical powers)

It follows that it is possible (maybe even probable) that:
Actual memories can be stolen, and are stolen by Hemalurgic Copper (which also steals mental fortitude).

It still comes down to Word of Brandon, but I think it totally fits with what we know of the 3 realms and Hemalurgy. And I think it would be cool in a terrifying sort of way to see Hemalurgic interrogation by Era 3 criminal organizations or hostile foreign states.

Edited by Nethseäar
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Thanks for the quotes, blows my theory out of the water. :-P

jW

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IIRC, spiking copper feruchemy out of someone does not grant you all their memories, but it does grant you access to any copperminds they may have made. There's probably a way to take memories themselves, but that would fall under the "you can do most anything with hemalurgy, but no one knows how" umbrella.

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Hemalurgy

 

Direct quote under Copper: "Steals Intelligence and memory". 

 

Now that is not necessarily conclusive proof since the source they're quoting in that article is the MAG. However, I do believe there is a statement from Brandon that the MAG is to be considered canon unless he later contradicts it (as he DEFINITELY did in BoM with regards to Nicrosil). Therefore, with regards to copper hemalurgy, this should still be considered the definitive source until Brandon covers the subject himself, and thus canon.

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