Hoid, a Certain WoB, and Adonalsium

[GenericMastermindAnt]

Foreword: I, evidently, have the worst memory ever because half of the terms used I use because I have forgotten the actual word Sanderson uses. "Attuned", etc. is one such term. <- not anymore it isn't.

 

So, one of the (admittedly few) WoB I know of states that the weapon used to kill Adonalsium and make the 16 shards does not exist as it once did, or something to that effect. My proposition, although it may have already been disproved in a different WoB or another source, is that Hoid is the weapon. 

 

A theory I saw recently suggested that Adonalsium was not a great being to kill in terms of difficulty, because he, like Preservation in Mistborn, added parts of himself to everything, severely weakening himself in the process. 

 

From BoM we know that Feruchemical stores attune to one's soul have an Identity specific to the Feruchemist, but also that they can be specially made (IIRC only by full Feruchemists) to not be attuned to anyone. This makes such items, like the titular Bands of Mourning, valuable weapons and artefacts, because anyone, Feruchemist or otherwise, can use them.

 

The way I think Hoid could be the weapon used to kill Adonalsium is if he has nothing in his soul, like one of the Bands, which makes him attuned to a specific thing. Therefore, in theory, Adonalsium might not be able to have any control over his actions and so Hoid, or whatever he was before killing him, could do what he likes. This would explain why Hoid did not gain a Shard while the others did (possibly). It had nothing to bind to him with, because he is like a blank sheet of paper.

 

 

Endnote: before anyone questions a detail I might end up contradicting, I mostly posted this to see what the community would come up with, and it seemed more appropriate to add some reasoning instead of having a 2 line post quoting the WoB then saying "'Oi d'ya think it's Hoid?". That said I hope I don't contradict myself as it wouldn't exactly add any credibility to the theory.

 

EDIT 2(?): I have no clue how this affects it, but in WoK I stumbled upon this most interesting of quotes regarding Hoid's beginning which I hadn't considered: when he speaks to Kaladin on the Shattered plains (or rather, plays to Kaladin for a large portion of the meeting) he says that he "began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole [at this point he is talking about the fact he is a thief]. Myself."

Edited March 4, 2016 by GenericMastermindAnt

[The Invested Beard]

The only question I would have is how Hoid is no longer in the form he was when he shattered Adonalsium? What form was he in before? If nothing's changed about him that renders the theory pretty dead in light of the WOB about the weapon no longer existing in it's original form.

Edited March 1, 2016 by The Invested Beard

[Unodus]

The only question I would have is how Hoid is no longer in the form he was when he shattered Adonalsium? What form was he in before? If nothing's changed about him that renders the theory pretty dead in light of the WOB about the weapon no longer existing in it's original form.

 

Well, this is all just assumption, but there is a very clear missing link between Midius (I know he's not really canon yet, but...) and the post-Hoid/ Wit we know and love. We see post-Hoid using an array of magic systems, so we know he's willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals- yet we don't see him using dragonsteel related magics (I think), which we know were relevant to the breaking of the god of gods (and, hopefully, dragons).

 

The Letters do give us an inkling on the missing link though. Hoid mentions "The Element" and his passion to intervene- if Hoid did once hold a power capable of shattering the god of gods this would suggest he can't do it now as he hasn't used it since, and the line "I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say" does support GMA's argument that the weapon is a physical part of Hoid.

Also, the replying letter  says "Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?". Perhaps that is the change which therefore qualifies Hoid as the weapon that was broken- without the gemstone, Hoid can't access that power. The recipient also notes how Hoid as a Harbinger of Chaos, what could be more worthy of the title than the one who shattered god?

 

Just a thought :V

[Observer]

I believe the gemstone refers to the little pinkish gems on Yolen. We know they're still canon despite being from Liar of Partinel because Mraize has one preserved in fluid in his study. The crystals are notable for being Yolen's version of a Nahel-bond, making it the second type of Investiture to be copied almost wholesale by Honor/Cultivation. They were extremely fragile, which is why Mraize keeps the one he has in suspension. I've always assumed that Hoid was unable to preserve whichever one he was trying to keep alive.

[The Invested Beard]

Well, this is all just assumption, but there is a very clear missing link between Midius (I know he's not really canon yet, but...) and the post-Hoid/ Wit we know and love. We see post-Hoid using an array of magic systems, so we know he's willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals- yet we don't see him using dragonsteel related magics (I think), which we know were relevant to the breaking of the god of gods (and, hopefully, dragons).

 

The Letters do give us an inkling on the missing link though. Hoid mentions "The Element" and his passion to intervene- if Hoid did once hold a power capable of shattering the god of gods this would suggest he can't do it now as he hasn't used it since, and the line "I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say" does support GMA's argument that the weapon is a physical part of Hoid.s

Also, the replying letter  says "Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?". Perhaps that is the change which therefore qualifies Hoid as the weapon that was broken- without the gemstone, Hoid can't access that power. The recipient also notes how Hoid as a Harbinger of Chaos, what could be more worthy of the title than the one who shattered god?

 

Just a thought :V

 

My only issue comes from the wording of the WOB. Just losing the gemstone or some magical abilities to me doesn't really constitute "no longer exists in the same form". To me that sounds more drastic and fundamental.

[PallonianFire]

 

 

yet we don't see him using dragonsteel related magics

 

Hoid uses Yolenish Lightweaving in both Warbreaker and Way of Kings.

[Pechvarry]

I believe the gemstone refers to the little pinkish gems on Yolen. We know they're still canon despite being from Liar of Partinel because Mraize has one preserved in fluid in his study. The crystals are notable for being Yolen's version of a Nahel-bond, making it the second type of Investiture to be copied almost wholesale by Honor/Cultivation. They were extremely fragile, which is why Mraize keeps the one he has in suspension. I've always assumed that Hoid was unable to preserve whichever one he was trying to keep alive.

Counterpoint: those crystals could be from Aether of Night, which is apparently back on the table. As I understand it (and I could be mistaken), the titular aethers were ripped from Dragonsteel.

None of this means they will no longer exist on Yolen, but rather that we can't say "this proves Yolen crystals are still canon" because Brandon may choose to relocate the crystals.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Pechvarry

[Pagerunner]

You actually have that backwards, Pechvarry; Brandon attempted to repurpose Aethers in Liar of Partinel. Last he mentioned it, he didn't plan on leaving them there. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1094#45

 

Elsewhere, Peter has said that Aethers are canon, but hasn't explained why (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/21542-the-status-of-aether-of-night/) . I do agree with what Observer said, that the pinkish crystal was either an Aether of the byproduct of an Aether, even though Brandon hasn't finalized the backstory behind the Aethers yet.

[The Invested Beard]

I've had a half formed theory in my brain about Aethers and their importance/involvement in the pre-shattering cosmere, especially concerning Hoid. I'm really curious to see if what I think is going to pan out pans out.

[King's Twit]

Yep, I think that Hoid was the weapon too. I also think that he was intentionally created to be the weapon, possibly by the Sixteen, to kill Adonalsium. It makes about a million Hoid quotes make more sense, and partly explains his obsession with stories and storytelling.

 

Edit: Also one minor correction.

 

From BoM we know that Feruchemical stores attune to one's soul, but also that they can be specially made (IIRC only by full Feruchemists) to not be attuned to anyone. This makes such items, like the titular Bands of Mourning, valuable weapons and artefacts, because anyone, Feruchemist or otherwise, can use them.

 

My understanding of the Bands was that they didn't just work for anyone because they were created without Identity, and so weren't "attuned" to anyone as you say. This lack of identity on the metalminds (I'm going to call them unkeyed metalminds from here on out) lets them be used by any Feruchemist, either a full Feruchemist or an appropriate Ferring, but not any person. You still need the genetic ability to do Feruchemy to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind.

 

The aspect of the Bands that lets them be used by anyone is the Nicrosilmind. Tapping this (also unkeyed) metalmind overrides the information in your Spiritweb and makes you functionally a genetic Feruchemist as long as you are tapping the nicrosilmind. Once you are effectively a normal full Feruchemist, you can now tap or store into any of the other unkeyed metalminds that constitute the Bands.

Edited March 2, 2016 by King's Twit

[spirit]

My only issue comes from the wording of the WOB. Just losing the gemstone or some magical abilities to me doesn't really constitute "no longer exists in the same form". To me that sounds more drastic and fundamental.

INTERVIEW: Mar 22nd, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Argent (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Is Hoid human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid was human a long time ago. Now... It's complicated. We would call him human, and so will pretty much everyone else, but he is not exactly that.

could fit possible

[The Invested Beard]

INTERVIEW: Mar 22nd, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Argent (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Is Hoid human?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hoid was human a long time ago. Now... It's complicated. We would call him human, and so will pretty much everyone else, but he is not exactly that.

could fit possible

 

 

Okay yeah I can see the point of view where that would make sense.

[GenericMastermindAnt]

My only issue comes from the wording of the WOB. Just losing the gemstone or some magical abilities to me doesn't really constitute "no longer exists in the same form". To me that sounds more drastic and fundamental.

 

The reason IMO that it does work is because - and this ties in to King's Twit's point about Hoid being made specifically to kill Adonalsium - if you think back to the Wheel of Time, with the 3 male and 3 female gholam: basically they were magic-impervious living weapons made to look like humans. And while Brandon did specifically say that he was originally human, so don't take this as perfectly literal, it makes sense to me that Hoid might have been the Brutus of the bunch: made the frontman due to being close to the target, then padded up and made to be good for killing him. But I probably shouldn't talk about Brutus as I'd be getting into speculation of an entirely different kind about a different author in a different century.

 

Yep, I think that Hoid was the weapon too. I also think that he was intentionally created to be the weapon, possibly by the Sixteen, to kill Adonalsium. It makes about a million Hoid quotes make more sense, and partly explains his obsession with stories and storytelling.

 

Edit: Also one minor correction.

 

 

My understanding of the Bands was that they didn't just work for anyone because they were created without Identity, and so weren't "attuned" to anyone as you say. This lack of identity on the metalminds (I'm going to call them unkeyed metalminds from here on out) lets them be used by any Feruchemist, either a full Feruchemist or an appropriate Ferring, but not any person. You still need the genetic ability to do Feruchemy to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind.

 

The aspect of the Bands that lets them be used by anyone is the Nicrosilmind. Tapping this (also unkeyed) metalmind overrides the information in your Spiritweb and makes you functionally a genetic Feruchemist as long as you are tapping the nicrosilmind. Once you are effectively a normal full Feruchemist, you can now tap or store into any of the other unkeyed metalminds that constitute the Bands.

 

AAH! Finally! The fact I forgot about Identity has been bugging me to hell. Thank you.

[imriel452]

I have always believed that the pinkish gem was an Aether (having read AoN, it sounds very much like an Amberite Aether...)

[emailanimal]

Is there a WoB somewhere that I am missing that says that Hoid has "nothing in his soul"?

 

Color me skeptical.  Some of the OP premises are not correct: Hoid, as it has been pointed out, did use Yolish  Lightweaving in Warbreaker, and in Stormlight Archive. One of his archetypes appears to be the Storyteller ("but there was a white haired man there who offered to tell me a story" - I am probably somewhat misquoting it....), and it seems like he combines storytelling with some amount of Yolish Lightweaving.

 

My other concern is the usual pair of questions: what evidence supports this theory? and what will this theory, if true, explain about Cosmere/Hoid?   

 

Finally, some things contradict the theory. Leras in Secret History made an observation about Cephandrius that is not very consistent with Leras using Cephandrius as a weapon to shatter Adonalsium. (unless you think that what he really meant is "he did not want to be a a part of our cabal, so we turned him into our weapon of mass destruction).

[imriel452]

A simple argument could be that Hoid was human pre-Shattering, but since everything has been going on, he has been collecting elements of Adonalsium - having a bead of Lerasium turned Elend Venture into one of the most powerful Mistborn who ever lived - Hoid has a bead, alongside other relics of power throughout the Cosmere.

 

My hope is that we end up with a showdown with another collector of Cosmere artifacts...

[GenericMastermindAnt]

Is there a WoB somewhere that I am missing that says that Hoid has "nothing in his soul"?

 

Color me skeptical.  Some of the OP premises are not correct: Hoid, as it has been pointed out, did use Yolish  Lightweaving in Warbreaker, and in Stormlight Archive. One of his archetypes appears to be the Storyteller ("but there was a white haired man there who offered to tell me a story" - I am probably somewhat misquoting it....), and it seems like he combines storytelling with some amount of Yolish Lightweaving.

 

My other concern is the usual pair of questions: what evidence supports this theory? and what will this theory, if true, explain about Cosmere/Hoid?   

 

Finally, some things contradict the theory. Leras in Secret History made an observation about Cephandrius that is not very consistent with Leras using Cephandrius as a weapon to shatter Adonalsium. (unless you think that what he really meant is "he did not want to be a a part of our cabal, so we turned him into our weapon of mass destruction).

Honestly there isn't much evidence, just some idle thoughts and the beginnings of proper evidence I scrounged up with a very small amount of digging. Most of this, as (I hope) I mentioned earlier, was intended to just stir up the fire that represents the most vocal users, and see what comes out.

[AnikoliNightmareVision]

So, one of the (admittedly few) WoB I know of states that the weapon used to kill Adonalsium and make the 16 shards does not exist as it once did, or something to that effect. My proposition, although it may have already been disproved in a different WoB or another source, is that Hoid is the weapon.

Maybe I've mistaken something but wasn't there a WoB that states that there was a failed attemp to kill Adonalsium and also that it was tried with some weapon that no longer exists in it's original form? I am now confused. Maybe I just mixed up some differente things and from it made some totaly new in my head that's not true, I'm new to all that. Can you link that WoB/WoBs that you made your theory about?

[imriel452]

Anikoli, you are right - it was in one of my most recent posts - both of those were WoB I received in my books.

[AnikoliNightmareVision]

Well, good to know that

[emailanimal]

A simple argument could be that Hoid was human pre-Shattering, but since everything has been going on, he has been collecting elements of Adonalsium - having a bead of Lerasium turned Elend Venture into one of the most powerful Mistborn who ever lived - Hoid has a bead, alongside other relics of power throughout the Cosmere.

 

My hope is that we end up with a showdown with another collector of Cosmere artifacts...

 

Simply eating lerasium does not make one "not human".  In Cosmere books and in WoBs, "not human" has been used to refer to:

 

 * hemalurgic constructs: kandra, koloss, Inquisitors

 

 * Aimians: both races, although we only was one race.

 

 * Parshendi/Parshmen

 

Two of the three appear to be sentient lives that emerged through different evolutionary paths. One - results of heavy modification due to tempering with Investiture.  So, there may be something to an argument that getting Invested through one's eyebrows changes one's humanity.  But it would take more than a lerasium bead - Elend did not stop being human, after all.

[imriel452]

I was thinking more along the lines that different levels of Investiture from different Shardworlds may have altered Hoid's sDNA - we have not really seen ( as far as I am aware) the effects two or more different types of Investiture would have on a human...

[Robot Aztec]

 

Simply eating lerasium does not make one "not human".  In Cosmere books and in WoBs, "not human" has been used to refer to:

 

 * hemalurgic constructs: kandra, koloss, Inquisitors

 

 * Aimians: both races, although we only was one race.

 

 * Parshendi/Parshmen

 

Two of the three appear to be sentient lives that emerged through different evolutionary paths. One - results of heavy modification due to tempering with Investiture.  So, there may be something to an argument that getting Invested through one's eyebrows changes one's humanity.  But it would take more than a lerasium bead - Elend did not stop being human, after all.

4) savants

[Ari]

Hoid uses Yolenish Lightweaving in both Warbreaker and Way of Kings.

 

I've generally seen it as "Yolish", which makes sense IMO.

 

How would we reconcile this with Hoid's statement about not being able to hurt people? Do you think this is the "change in form"?

 

It just seems like such a convoluted way to refer to a person and Brandon doesn't try to actively throw people off track, just RAFOs or uses any latitude given by overly general or poorly-phrased questions.

[I Am Stick]

I'm assuming that the "gemstone" is Hoid himself. I felt he was talking about what he, personality or magic based, was and if the recipient of the letter had given up on him and his ideals. I could be wrong but wasn't Topaz one of Hoids assumed names?

Edited March 6, 2016 by I Am Stick