discussion All we know about Nalan's hunt, return of spren, Desolation and Recreance - is Nalan just insane?

[Stormgate]

Reading Ym's Interlude, Nalan said that it took a while to discover his infraction. This indicates the Herald is searching for Radiants, and trying desperately to prevent the Desolation. In a twisted fashion, of course, but the goal seems to be there.

[DocHoliday]

Okay first thing I want to add after reading OP: Surgebinders existed BEFORE the Heralds imposed Orders, as per Dalinars Nohadon visions.

We also know that a Desolation occurred immediately after a Surgebinder went rogue, but BEFORE the Orders.

We have visual proof that it was a bad Desolation.

I wonder if simply using Surges unchecked doubt somehow power up the destructive potential during a Desolation

[Oversleep]

Okay first thing I want to add after reading OP: Surgebinders existed BEFORE the Heralds imposed Orders, as per Dalinars Nohadon visions.

Yeah, I know:

• At first, Heralds were the only Surgebinders.
• At one point, spren figured out what Honor did and started bonding humans which resulted in Surgebinders.
  "The Honorblades are what we are based on, Kaladin. Honor gave these to men, and those men gained powers from them. Spren figured out what He’d done, and we imitated it. We’re bits of His power, after all, like this sword." ~Syl

• Heralds became patrons of the Orders, at the same time imposing organisation on them.
  "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

We also know that a Desolation occurred immediately after a Surgebinder went rogue, but BEFORE the Orders.

We have visual proof that it was a bad Desolation.

I wonder if simply using Surges unchecked doubt somehow power up the destructive potential during a Desolation

Are you implying that Alakavish "going rogue" caused Desolation? I doubt it.

[DocHoliday]

for the sake of argument, why not I ask?

The timing is suspicious if nothing else

[Pathfinder]

for the sake of argument, why not I ask?

The timing is suspicious if nothing else

Because of the oath pact which created the heralds to begin with. The heralds were created to fight the desolations. The knights radiant came later when they learned from the heralds. Storms its in their names, they herald the coming of a desolation and come to help people survive it. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Pathfinder

[natc]

It's amusing how the Heralds have been exalted as deities and heroes in their own right in modern Rosharan religion, when their very name almost certainly implies that they herald the end of the world with their arrival.

[CaptainRyan]

Because of the oath pact which created the heralds to begin with. The heralds were created to fight the desolations. The knights radiant came later when they learned from the heralds. Storms its in their names, they herald the coming of a desolation and come to help people survive it. 

 

It's amusing how the Heralds have been exalted as deities and heroes in their own right in modern Rosharan religion, when their very name almost certainly implies that they herald the end of the world with their arrival.

 

I think it could be argued that they are Heralds (of the Almighty). Remember that the information on how to properly clean and care for wounds came from a Herald, the information on how to farm came from a Herald etc. I am not sure their status as "Heralds" is limited to announcing the Desolations. My impression is that Brandon is, basically, using the term Herald as a less earthly form of "Apostle".

[Pathfinder]

I think it could be argued that they are Heralds (of the Almighty). Remember that the information on how to properly clean and care for wounds came from a Herald, the information on how to farm came from a Herald etc. I am not sure their status as "Heralds" is limited to announcing the Desolations. My impression is that Brandon is, basically, using the term Herald as a less earthly form of "Apostle".

I took that as to try and get the recovering humanity back up to a level of technology and know how to get ready for the next Desolation that they herald is coming. Basically I take it as "hey a whole storm of bad things is coming. You need to get ready for it. Here is how you make weapons to kill the things coming. Here is how you heal people to hopefully not have a ton of people die when the things coming to kill you come. Here is how you can get more food to store and ration to survive the things coming to kill you. 

[CaptainRyan]

I took that as to try and get the recovering humanity back up to a level of technology and know how to get ready for the next Desolation that they herald is coming. Basically I take it as "hey a whole storm of bad things is coming. You need to get ready for it. Here is how you make weapons to kill the things coming. Here is how you heal people to hopefully not have a ton of people die when the things coming to kill you come. Here is how you can get more food to store and ration to survive the things coming to kill you. 

 

Excellent points all. While the answer has little-to-no value in figuring out more about the Cosmere I am academically interested in Brandon's thought process and have added this to my (growing) list of questions to pose to Brandon the next time I can make it to a signing. Most likely that will be next year if I fly to Utah for the midnight release of SA3. (I am so hoping that my wife and I can do this!)

[DocHoliday]

Because of the oath pact which created the heralds to begin with. The heralds were created to fight the desolations. The knights radiant came later when they learned from the heralds. Storms its in their names, they herald the coming of a desolation and come to help people survive it.

They do all of that and more. None of which is relevant to the subject at hand

[Pathfinder]

They do all of that and more. None of which is relevant to the subject at hand

How is that not relevant? What would be the purpose of the heralds prior to the desolations if by your theory they preceded it? Humanity would not need the leg up in technology, medicine, and etc as it hadn't been destroyed in the past. They wouldn't need protecting as there isn't anything coming to destroy them. So if the Heralds are not tied to the desolations, and it is only due to the surgebinder's betrayal, then what was their function prior to it all?

[Eki]

Hang on, the Heralds didn't set up the Knights, did they? There are quotes saying the Heralds had to be convinced to become the leaders of the orders, and I think Taln says something that implies they had nothing to do with their beginnings as well.

The Heralds were probably normal people before the Oathpact. I think Jezrien says they agreed to the pact by their own will, which is weird if they were created just to be part of it. Unless you mean that's what gave them their Heraldic powers. That would make sense, I think.

[Pathfinder]

Hang on, the Heralds didn't set up the Knights, did they? There are quotes saying the Heralds had to be convinced to become the leaders of the orders, and I think Taln says something that implies they had nothing to do with their beginnings as well.

The Heralds were probably normal people before the Oathpact. I think Jezrien says they agreed to the pact by their own will, which is weird if they were created just to be part of it. Unless you mean that's what gave them their Heraldic powers. That would make sense, I think.

If I recall correctly, I believe the order of operations was thus:

 

Oathpact with Heralds gives them their blades/powers

Heralds fight off a bunch of desolations

Spren mimicking the honor blades bond surgebinders

surgebinders out of control are reigned in by heralds and told they have to abide by rules or be destroyed

the surgebinders then become the knights radiant whose order each has a herald as a patron

 

That was at least the impression I got. 

[Eki]

If I recall correctly, I believe the order of operations was thus:

 

Oathpact with Heralds gives them their blades/powers

Heralds fight off a bunch of desolations

Spren mimicking the honor blades bond surgebinders

surgebinders out of control are reigned in by heralds and told they have to abide by rules or be destroyed

the surgebinders then become the knights radiant whose order each has a herald as a patron

 

That was at least the impression I got. 

Yeah, apparently you're right...

 

I can't find that Taln quote, where he's rambling about the Knights... But if I recall it correctly, he's talking about them as if they were humanity's idea... Hm...

[Pathfinder]

Yeah, apparently you're right...

 

I can't find that Taln quote, where he's rambling about the Knights... But if I recall it correctly, he's talking about them as if they were humanity's idea... Hm...

My summary is a little vague. Basically I believe the surgebinders went out of control. The heralds showed up and gave them rules to abide by or threatened to destroy them, and then the heralds went to do their own thing. The humans/knights radiants to be then decided to form orders and asked the heralds to sponsor them. So the radiant orders were the people's idea. Just the orders popped up as a result of the herald's warning. So I believe we are both right in that regard at least  

Edited June 1, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Jondesu]

Hang on, the Heralds didn't set up the Knights, did they? There are quotes saying the Heralds had to be convinced to become the leaders of the orders, and I think Taln says something that implies they had nothing to do with their beginnings as well.

In order:

1. The Heralds were either created, changed, or whatever, by Honor, as part of or prior to the Oathpact.

2. The spren learn to imitate the surges and Honorblades, and begin bonding without oaths being required (or ones that are unique to each spren, with no organization).

3. Ishar (a Herald), concerned that Surgebinding is dangerous without checks on its use, forces the Oaths and Organization on the Surgebinders and spren somehow, forming what became the Knights Radiant.

4. The other Heralds eventually take leadership of their respective orders, some grudgingly.

Edit: I wonder if the Oathpact has anything to do with the fact that the Oaths are now required to be a Knight Radiant? The naming of it certainly points to that. Perhaps forcing the bonds to use Oaths has somehow led to Odium being trapped.

jW

Edited June 1, 2016 by Jondesu

[DreamEternal]

In order:

1. The Heralds were either created, changed, or whatever, by Honor, as part of or prior to the Oathpact.

2. The spren learn to imitate the surges and Honorblades, and begin bonding without oaths being required (or ones that are unique to each spren, with no organization).

3. Ishar (a Herald), concerned that Surgebinding is dangerous without checks on its use, forces the Oaths and Organization on the Surgebinders and spren somehow, forming what became the Knights Radiant.

4. The other Heralds eventually take leadership of their respective orders, some grudgingly.

Adding to this, I believe there was a step 2.5:

Nohadon, dissilusioned with the actions of rogue surgebinders, forces all surgebinders in the lands he conquered to follow strict rules, and use his book as philosophical guidance. Ishar took those surgebinders as a model of what the Knights should be.

[Eki]

I think the common theme of oaths have more to do with the fact that it's all connected to Honor.

[Jondesu]

Adding to this, I believe there was a step 2.5:

Nohadon, dissilusioned with the actions of rogue surgebinders, forces all surgebinders in the lands he conquered to follow strict rules, and use his book as philosophical guidance. Ishar took those surgebinders as a model of what the Knights should be.

Maybe, but I suspect the book was written after that. Nohadon was more concerned about the actual action of uniting and bringing peace than about writing a book at the time we saw him in Dalinar's vision, and I suspect that persisted until late in life.

jW

[DreamEternal]

Maybe, but I suspect the book was written after that. Nohadon was more concerned about the actual action of uniting and bringing peace than about writing a book at the time we saw him in Dalinar's vision, and I suspect that persisted until late in life.

jW

Later than what? I meant he wrote the book after uniting his land, and while or after he imposed special laws upon the surgebinders, so I guess we agree but I wrote it in a unclear way.

[Jondesu]

Later than what? I meant he wrote the book after uniting his land, and while or after he imposed special laws upon the surgebinders, so I guess we agree but I wrote it in a unclear way.

I was saying I think he wrote the book after Ishar forced the organization on the spren and the Knights. That would make it step 3.5 instead of 2.5. :-)

jW

[DreamEternal]

I was saying I think he wrote the book after Ishar forced the organization on the spren and the Knights. That would make it step 3.5 instead of 2.5. :-)

jW

That would mean he lived throught multiple desolations, since in his time as a king right after a desolation Radiants were not bound to any rules other than their own, something possible depending on the limits of Stormlight, but very unlikely. He writing the book and making laws for his newly unified land, not exactly in that order, and Ishar taking them as inspiration seems more likely, IMO. Edited June 3, 2016 by DreamEternal

[dvoraen]

I'm probably obsessed with this idea, but I do think there's one point not really accounted for:

 

- How much influence are the Unmade having on the once Heralds?

 

There has been quite a bit of implication that the Honorblades, besides granting Surge pairs, go above-and-beyond what the spren chose to imitate.  The Prelude with Kalak's POV corroborates this, and "Taln's", if we assume he's the real one.  Between whatever the Gift is, in addition to the fact that the Honorblades show nothing of their elaborate and beautiful designs (more on this in a sec), it's clear that the Heralds had something else going on for them beyond simply having access to their two Surges.

 

What does this have to do with the Unmade?  I'm getting there, but first:  "I'm worried about Ash." ... "She's getting worse.  We weren't supposed to get worse."

 

Why would they need to worry about "getting worse" unless they're being affected by something?  This implies that the Heralds previously were not, again suggestive of some form of protection they no longer have.  Note also, that this observation of 'getting worse' happened to transpire exactly six years ago, which is when the initial candidates were being chosen for Nahel bonds.  Jasnah had her pronounced experience right before that overheard conversation, and this is also the time period Shallan had it occur as well*, which is also identified by Taravangian as when Moelach's Death Rattles began.

 

Between the presumed Heralds 'getting worse', and a sudden change in certain supernatural events, I think it's safe to say that the Listeners' gods -- who I think are pretty clearly the Unmade -- were starting to stir, and thereby plucking at people more so than they would in the past**.  We have both WoB (about Shallan's father) and even a direct Hoid statement (to Shallan***) that people on Roshar can be affected to take a darker -- dare I say more destructive? -- mindset on matters, to say nothing of what the Thrill does to people.  It stands to reason, therefore, that if something is happening to the Heralds, enough so that it's observable and a concern to at least one of them, then it stands to reason that they are likely being targetted by this.  After all, 'the enemy' would surely know who they are, what they represent, and very much want to get them out of the way of being a threat.  How better to do that than to corrupt them into doing the enemy's work while making it seem their own idea?  Odium may not be able to do so directly (because of the Oathpact, perhaps), but he does have Splinters of his Shard on Roshar (the Unmade) that undoubtedly could do that for him... especially if the Heralds had rescinded each and every bond to their Honorblades that gave them that extra bit of advantage.

 

So do I think Nale's crazy?  Yes and no.  I think he's going down a similar path that Shalash is, but "meting out Justice" in a more twisted way.  I think that this nudging towards the Dark Side, so to speak, is what's really going on, and then he just kept on going because the strings had been attached on account of no longer being bound to the Oathpact's protective aspect.  And I do think there is evidence that the Heralds had that and more going for them.  Their extended lifespans are only part of that.

 

The real question is what did Nale and the others really do to themselves when they foreswore their oaths?

 

 

 

 

* She states she's seventeen to Sebarial, and her flashback identifies her as eleven years when her mother died, which pinpoints her learning to Lightweave as the same era as the other original candidates (she hadn't done it for a long time before her mother's death).

 

** I'd give a great deal to know how active they were during non-Desolation periods, or if they mostly slumbered.

 

*** He states what Shallan is fighting isn't completely natural.  It's debatable how natural the Shard Odium is in general, but either way it's pretty clear that something supernatural is going on with her father, and so far only the Unmade really fall into the category of "direct supernatural antagonist", as shown by Nohadon's in-passing statement regarding Yelig-nar.

[Rasarr]

Dvoraen, that's some excellent point you've raised. From narrative standpoint, this would also work - after all, our heroes wouldn't look so great if there were ten physical gods running about, saving the day (and imagine this moment of realization - "Heralds work for Odium now!"  ). It'd be also interesting to note that going by your theory, the most insane of all Heralds is also the only one still afforded the Oathpact protection - which, again, does little to help the heroes.

 

Regarding the question you've posed by the end, I suppose this: the Heralds could have some sort of splinters of Honor merged with them - much like Listeners or Returned do with spren and Divine Breath - which would bestow them with additional abilities, including longevity and whatever lets them use their Shardblades more ergonomically, Stormlight-wise. What happens after the Aharietiam is that those splinters are ripped out by the act of breaking of the Oathpact, turning Heralds into Slivers (thus, preservation of skills like immortality), but leaving part of Spiritweb "dangling", so to put it and opening Heralds to other influence that can fill in the space that was earlier occupied by the Honor splinter. As we have a WoB that if you were to survive hemalurgic spiking, you'd be severely impacted due to lacking parts of Spiritweb, it could also be that the breaking of Oathpact contributed to insanity, and Odium utilized "broken mind" to influence the Heralds.

[Oversleep]

Perhaps what makes Herald is a double mechanism - Honorblade which grants Surgebinding (I think it's safe to say that Honorblades are kind of a hack or artificial spren) but Heralds are also augmented... So power was bestowed into their blades and into them themselves, and to be a full Herald they need both parts to be connected - and that's why they left their Honorblades behind, in an attempt to break the bond and their 'Heraldry' ('Heraldiness'?).

Also, when I've gone through the last dialouge Shallan and Jasnah had (on the ship, when Jasnah gave Shallan WoR) Jasnah said that many new Knights popped up before a Desolation.