Threnody was a Shard

[Ari]

Haha okay, it was just a random counter-example as far as I was concerned though.

[Zmann966]

Haha okay, it was just a random counter-example as far as I was concerned though.

Lol, don't care. I'm throwing all my spheres in on this one.

I noticed the link when Dirigible brought up the Svrakiss during the Denver signing, and the theory spiraled out form there:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53042-calamity-tour-denver/?p=407907

Random counter-example? Or prophetic providence? 

 

[natc]

But doesn't this sort of assume that the world had to have been made by a Shard? Yolen existed pre-Shattering, and it would be pretty weird if it were the only planet that did.

Having this many worlds be suitable for life within a single dwarf galaxy seems a bit of a stretch.

Actually, for all we know Adonalsium made Yolen. He certainly had influence on the formation of Roshar, according to the Letter.

[Voidus]

Having this many worlds be suitable for life within a single dwarf galaxy seems a bit of a stretch.

Actually, for all we know Adonalsium made Yolen. He certainly had influence on the formation of Roshar, according to the Letter.

There are a lot of stars in a galaxy and we have no idea how rare life sustaining planets are so it's kind of hard to say whether or not it would be unlikely.

[Rasarr]

Having this many worlds be suitable for life within a single dwarf galaxy seems a bit of a stretch.

 

Remember that it's the galaxy with presence of Adonalsium (A.K.A. intelligent mind with worldmaking) and huge amounts of Investiture, which our universe - arguably - lacks, and both of which seem to increase the chances of intelligent life forming on planets, so I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Rasarr

[natc]

And now we've gone before shardic engineering of life, huh.

Part of me thinks something Adonalsium made would be Roshar levels of bizarre, but . . . eh.

Edited February 27, 2016 by natc

[Batemenace]

I just reread the story, looking for clues. Right there in the intro, we learn that Isaac, Brandon's art guy, named the world after reading the novella. So, there might not be any deep clues about other Shards or the history of the planet; it might just be a poetic way of saying it's a graveyard.

 

However, Isaac is on Twitter, @IzykStewart. I don't have an account, but someone else could ask him about how he came up with the name, and what the meaning behind it is.

 

This is a pretty important point. While it might be fun to speculate about one of the unknown shards, Threnody certainly isn't one of them. Brandon already has each one worked out, and wouldn't simply rewrite or retcon Threnody as one of the shards because Isaac came up with a cool name that would work on a bunch of levels. 

 

Of course, that wouldn't stop Brandon from mixing previously unknown, less developed aspects of the cosmere with Threnody. I wouldn't put it past Brandon to have decided that something or someone important is interred beneath Threnody...

[Blackhoof]

Well we know that Odium has splintered at least one other Shard.

 

I think it likely that this Shard was Justice- after all, Silence does say "Justice died on Homeland".
 

What if Homeland was an entirely different planet? And one day, after Hell starts being settled, Odium comes along and splinters Justice, destroying Homeland in the process, or at least cutting off the method of travelling between the worlds. Hence, Threnody named in memorial to Justice, and without a Shard of its own, technically. The fact that it is a world without "god", from the perspective of the pilgrims, makes the whole "land of the damned" and "hell" thing make sense on a whole new level.
 

And we know that Silence and her family at least worship the God Beyond. Is this new, since their god died? Is it a Forescout thing, or does the whole society worship the God Beyond now, or did they always do so? 

 

Heck, since Brandon didn't plan Threnody too far in advance, perhaps he pre-retconned it. Maybe Justice's death was already in the backstory and he just added Threnody and the refugees settling there when it occurred to him to?

 

And in reference to Brandon's answer- if the Evil is Odium then it certainly relates to Ruin in an indirect way, both being Shards.

[Nashan’Elin]

Justice always seemed like it would be a Splinter of Honor to me, especially one associated with the Skybreakers. It could be another Shard, though

[Stormgate]

I agree with the theory that the Homeland was another planet.

[Dracnor]

Justice always seemed like it would be a Splinter of Honor to me, especially one associated with the Skybreakers. It could be another Shard, though

I think that these are two fundementaly different thematic: Honor is about doing what is just (yeah, the vocabulary makes strange things), moral, fair, whereas Justice is about what is dued, what is legal. As I see it (and yes, it's totally subjective and could lead to awesome philosophical reflexions), many conclusion of justice aren't honorable, and many honorable acts aren't legal. I'd say that Honor is what we call natural laws and Justice human laws.

And I don't know if it can be taken as a proof, but what we konw about Skybreaker-Windrunner relations shows that honor and justice don't mix very well.

[Pagerunner]

I've made a case elsewhere for why I think Justice and Honor are two distinct Shards. (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52690-unknown-shards-and-opposition-in-the-cosmere/page-2#entry395974) It boils down to what the definition of Honor is. I think there's a faulty but easy assumption commonly held that Honor is a synonym for doing good. I have a different definition: I think it means "keeping your promises." Oathpact, Oathgates, the Radiants' Oaths and how they abandoned them... making agreements or covenants seems to be an integral part of how the Shard of Honor interacts with the world. He even managed to bind Odium to some sort of contract or agreement, trapping him in the Roshar system and setting up a system where they would name 'champions.'

 

So, the ways that the various Knights Radiant act aren't necessarily the best definitions of Honorable (capital "H") actions. Windrunners take an oath to defend others, Skybreakers take an oath to be enact justice, Stonewardens take an oath to stand firm when others fall... but it's not what they do that is Honorable, but that they do what they promised to.

 

Justice, on the other hand, is independent of any agreements or promises; it is tied to the inherent morality of actions. Murder isn't wrong just because everyone agreed not to do it; it's wrong because it is wrong! So, Dracnor, I actually hold the opposite view of what you've presented; Justice is the natural laws, and Honor would be more concerned with the human compacts we call the legal system.

 

I have an illustration, but I don't think it makes things that much clearer and has a ton of potential tangents, so I'm just gonna throw it in spoiler tags.

I'm gonna stretch what happened with the Knights Radiant, but let's say there's nothing inherently immoral about resigning from duty. Justice would say, they have not done any wrong to the people they defend, and in fact they have done much good by fighting Voidbringers and Midnight Essence and all that good stuff. Honor, however, says that they've made a promise to fight until their deaths (and possibly even after their deaths, but that's a topic I'll post once I've fully fleshed it out), and that breaking their promise voids the whole deal, affecting everyone involved.

 

Now, with any Shards, there's going to be overlap and conflict. If humans have a right to Autonomy, then how does that play with Justice? Is Ruining someone else unJust? In the same way, compromising your Honor and breaking your promises is also a betrayal of Justice. But a Shard concerned with Honor will behave differently than a Shard concerned with Justice.

 

Uh oh. In that example, I was talking about violating the terms of a contracting, rendering it... VOID. More contractual-style language coming from Roshar, and I didn't even realize it until I was proofreading my post.

 

Anyways, a much simpler example would be S1 Rumplestiltskin from Once Upon A Time. He kept all of his deals to the letter, but he was in no way Just with how he executed them.

[Blackhoof]

And to take a Pathfinder/D+D look at it- honour is being Lawful- whether Lawful Good, Neutral or Evil. All keep their promises and prioritise telling the truth over lies. But Justice is more any of the Good alignments- all believing in their own interpretations and beliefs about what is just, good, and how to restore justice.

[Irkutsk]

In regards to the original thread, it seems to me that the homeland could be Scadrial, and therefore if the planet was named for a Shard, then perhaps it was named for the death of Leras (and Ati) during the final Ascension.

I believe Thredony to be in the Scadrian planetary system, so this would work out well.

Evidence:

-Silver, a metal, is very important to Thredony because of the Shades. If we assume that planets in the same system have similar focuses (which is impossible to prove at this point) then it isn't too far of a stretch to assume that metals' importance to magic on Scadrial and Thredony are related.

-Mistborn SH spoilers:

Thredony and Scadrial are apparently close to each other, at least in the cognitive realm. Kelsier managed to walk to the Ire fortress, which is near the Thredony border.

Now, world hopping doesn't seem to be especially well-known on Scadrial in the first era, (which would be required if we assume the Homeland is Scadrial and the Thredonites are workshop ping refugees) so perhaps the naming of Thredony was not for Leras and Ati, but something that happens at the end of Mistborn second era? It's impossible to tell, but it would depend on where Shadows for Silence falls in the chronology- before or after Mistborn era 2.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Irkutsk

[Argel]

I thought we had a WoB that Threnody is in it's own planetary system. And how do we know the Ire fortress is near the Threnody border?

[Irkutsk]

I thought we had a WoB that Threnody is in it's own planetary system. And how do we know the Ire fortress is near the Threnody border?

I don't know about any WoB, but I think I remember the Ire talking about how they were worried about cognitive shadows coming from the Thredonite border, and that they had some device to detect them. I'll find a quote if I can. It makes logical sense to me that being near each other in the cognitive realm (near enough to walk at least) then they would be near each other physically as well.

Edit:

"“Well,” the captain said from behind, voice echoing. “Nobody from Threnody within a day’s march of here. Looks like a false alarm after all.”"

-Mistborn: Secret History, Page 279 iBooks

So it looks like I was a bit off, Thredony is at least a day's March away from the Ire fortress, which itself is very near the Scadrial border. Thredony is still close, but not necessarily directly bordering Scadrial.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Irkutsk

[PallonianFire]

For Threnody to be named in memorial of Leras, the timelines would have to be way, way different. We know for sure that it's called Threnody during Era 1, and Leras is still alive then.

[Argel]

I would be careful reading too much into that. Nazh is from Threnody and for all we know that device might detect him even though he is not a CS. It's probably a subtle hint that Threnody is near Sel, but e.g. it could be closer to Sel than to Scadrial (or equidistant if the three make up an equilateral triangle). Could be Brandon was cackling with glee after writing that, given all the speculation that the people in SoS came from either Sel or Scadrial.

[Dracnor]

So, the ways that the various Knights Radiant act aren't necessarily the best definitions of Honorable (capital "H") actions. Windrunners take an oath to defend others, Skybreakers take an oath to be enact justice, Stonewardens take an oath to stand firm when others fall... but it's not what they do that is Honorable, but that they do what they promised to.

 

Justice, on the other hand, is independent of any agreements or promises; it is tied to the inherent morality of actions. Murder isn't wrong just because everyone agreed not to do it; it's wrong because it is wrong! So, Dracnor, I actually hold the opposite view of what you've presented; Justice is the natural laws, and Honor would be more concerned with the human compacts we call the legal system.

Well, we at least agree on the significant point: honor is not justice. We just disagree on our definitions of honor and justice.

In fact, I think that  I consider Justice as the structure man made, and you as the concern of being just, fair (what I do call Honor). So you're rigth: I call Justice what you call Honor, and Honor what you call Justice. Hum.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Dracnor

[Shagomir]

I thought we had a WoB that Threnody is in it's own planetary system. And how do we know the Ire fortress is near the Threnody border?

We actually have a WoB that indicates otherwise: 

 

 

PALADIN BREWER

Is Threnody in the same planetary system as Sel?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it is.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1150#5

[happyman]

We actually have a WoB that indicates otherwise: 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that was mis-reported.  Brandon certainly claims to have never said it.

[Rasarr]

We actually have a WoB that indicates otherwise: 

 

 

It's incorrect. I actually started a thread on this one and after a while, Peter popped in and clarified that Brandon was exhausted and thus answered incorrectly. They're not in the same system. This WoB should probably be deleted from Theoryland.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Rasarr

[Nedyah Drallid]

Remember that it's the galaxy with presence of Adonalsium (A.K.A. intelligent mind with worldmaking) and huge amounts of Investiture, which our universe - arguably - lacks, and both of which seem to increase the chances of intelligent life forming on planets, so I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

Do you really want to get into a theology debate here?

[the.fulgid]

It's incorrect. I actually started a thread on this one and after a while, Peter popped in and clarified that Brandon was exhausted and thus answered incorrectly. They're not in the same system. This WoB should probably be deleted from Theoryland.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe from both Threnody and Scadrial you can see a bright patch of starts in the sky, which is supposed to be the same star belt. Not that that really means a whole lot I guess, as stars can be seen from near incomprehensible distances away. But given that it's not mentioned on Sel I would assume it's not near the other two.

[Argel]

And from Roshar as well IIRC. Everything is in the same dwarf galaxy so a lot of the astronomical features will look the same.