Why is it difficult to store speed?

[Voidus]

Not too bad but yeah, good point, I keep forgetting that we're still in spoiler time for SoS since Bands just came out.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

If that was the case, then what happens when you store mental speed? And what would happen if you store mental and physical speed at the same time?

A drooling mess is my guess.

Edit- Can you store two feruchemical abilities at once? I think I recall you can't, but that may just be my brain messin with me.

Edited February 24, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Observer]

In WoA Sazed stores a whole bunch at once to prepare for the battle.

I'm just wondering if the perceptive boost is 1:1 alongside the speed. If I double my speed, do I get double the thought speed, or only 150% or less? Depending on how fast Bleeder was moving, she may not have needed too good a ratio for speed of thought to keep up with herself.

[Voidus]

In WoA Sazed stores a whole bunch at once to prepare for the battle.

I'm just wondering if the perceptive boost is 1:1 alongside the speed. If I double my speed, do I get double the thought speed, or only 150% or less? Depending on how fast Bleeder was moving, she may not have needed too good a ratio for speed of thought to keep up with herself.

Not necessarily 1:1 you're right but your reflexes at least would need to be close to that to make actual running possible.

[Oversleep]

I say storing physical speed alone makes you trapped in slow body, while storing mental speed alone makes you a slow thinker.

Storing both zinc and steel (at the same storing rates) makes you slow thinker in slow body, so it cancels itself out a bit. You don't experience body lag nor body lag, but at a whole you're slower than universe around you.

[Three1415]

I've always interpreted F-Zinc as storing intelligence (i.e, more stupid when storing, more genius when tapping) rather than processing speed, because we have pretty conclusive evidence that that's not really what happens; F-Steel is what gives you bullet time. 

 

It's quite possible, of course (and indeed Brandon suggests it) that processing speed is overlapped between them, so I imagine it's a sort of middle ground (i.e, being smarter allows you to sort through possibilities faster, but being physically faster gives you more time to do it). 

 

So I imagine that when storing both you both become somewhat dumber (that's what we mean when we saw someone is 'a little slow,' after all) and see the world as sped up.

[Pathfinder]

Can somebody post the quote from SoS, for the record, that shows tapping F!Steel as increasing perception speed? It's the one where Bleeder is seen to move and react as if in real time when viewed from inside a Bendalloy bubble.

 

Your ability to hold up your own weight is something we do see decrease when storing, in BOM. It's not quite bone strength, but Wax notes that making himself lighter actually does weaken his muscles and ability to move, the opposite of his not getting crushed when becoming heavier than a building. As perception is something gained from tapping F!Steel, it's very likely you will lose perception speed while storing.

Of course, it's hard to tell how much you gain/lose. It could be that your perception is much like Wax's ability to hold himself up.

Ex: When Wax makes himself heavier than a truck, iirc, he has difficulty walking to some degree. He can hold himself up, but he's not given many favors in regards to being able to move around. Much the same way storing weight does allow Wax to move differently and physically jump heigher, but impacts his ability to do things like lift himself. Steel might give you just enough perception to not kill yourself, but doesn't give you enough to do anything beyond that. This either means Bleeder was forced to stick to more or less basic motor functions while using Steel, or is means that as a Kandra she was able to do something to her mind to make up for the difference.

(Assuming I'm right)

Please provide quotes from the book that show Wax's muscles and or bones become weaker/brittle when he stores his weight, which he does when walking around 90 percent of the time. What I was stating was that Wax's boon for being able to store/tap weight is that his bones can handle his increased weight. He does not need to store it, it is just a boon that lets him deal with it. With steel the runner still suffers from friction but can run without needing to tap mental speed. I state that that is a steel runners boon. The capacity to run at those speeds but to have the reflexes to use that speed despite the reflexes not having a source as it is with Wax. We have never seen anywhere it shown that when storing only physical speed that the perception of the storer slow down, and just because some may think it is implied does not make it fact. If anyone can provide me with quotes that can show otherwise instead of stating "well it didn't explicitly say it doesn't happen so it must happen" then I will be happy to concede but till then this is all a strawman. I am the one making the effort to research the topic and provide information, that is just being told it "isn't good enough". Well if it isn't good enough, then give me some actual references to respond to. Otherwise this isn't discourse, this isn't a debate, its two people shutting their ears and yelling at each other "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA". I will only respond from here on out when anyone has made the actual effort to provide quotes or WoB that show this. 

[Voidus]

 

Please provide quotes from the book that show Wax's muscles and or bones become weaker/brittle when he stores his weight, which he does when walking around 90 percent of the time. What I was stating was that Wax's boon for being able to store/tap weight is that his bones can handle his increased weight. He does not need to store it, it is just a boon that lets him deal with it. With steel the runner still suffers from friction but can run without needing to tap mental speed. I state that that is a steel runners boon. The capacity to run at those speeds but to have the reflexes to use that speed despite the reflexes not having a source as it is with Wax. We have never seen anywhere it shown that when storing only physical speed that the perception of the storer slow down, and just because some may think it is implied does not make it fact. If anyone can provide me with quotes that can show otherwise instead of stating "well it didn't explicitly say it doesn't happen so it must happen" then I will be happy to concede but till then this is all a strawman. I am the one making the effort to research the topic and provide information, that is just being told it "isn't good enough". Well if it isn't good enough, then give me some actual references to respond to. Otherwise this isn't discourse, this isn't a debate, its two people shutting their ears and yelling at each other "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA". I will only respond from here on out when anyone has made the actual effort to provide quotes or WoB that show this. 

Ok, a few points.
1. Since there is reasonable basis for the assumption (ie. when a feruchemical trait is tapped we have yet to see any boon that we know for certain is not stored when storing the metalmind) it's not simply 'since it doesn't say it doesn't happen therefore it does' it's 'we have reasonable evidence that it should happen and no evidence to the contrary'
2. A strawman is something different, it's where you suggest that you know what your opponents argument is and argue against that rather than argue against the actual argument. (For instance saying that someones argument is just  "well it didn't explicitly say it doesn't happen so it must happen")
3. "I am the one making the effort to research the topic and provide information" Sorry to have to be harsh here but you don't get points for effort, simply pulling up random irrelevant quotes doesn't earn you winning points. And again, these are all well known facts, do you actually dispute that Steelrunning causes an increase in perception? Or that feruchemy doesn't give you something for nothing? Because I've made plenty of points that you could respond to but you seem to prefer instead simply arguing about who's putting in more work, which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, it's a red herring (The term I think you were looking for when you used strawman before, but I can't be sure since that doesn't quite fit either)

The quote Observer is talking about is from Bands which I' unfortunately lent out but since you really seem to be getting upset that people aren't quoting as much as you'd like I messaged a friend and we found it, the quote is (more or less)
Bands spoilers

 

He made himself lighter which helped but he still had to stop and catch his breath on the fifth tier. Just as making his body heavier granted him the strength to move his oversized muscles getting lighter always seemed to cost him some of his strength.

[Citadel16]

No they don't become more durable just able to withstand the weight increase, it's one of those feruchemical weirdness things like why doesn't tapping a bunch of strength rip your skin open or why doesn't tapping speed cause all of your bones to break when you take a step, you're immune to the direct results of your overtapping, not anything else.

From the same place, storing it. If you retained your former strength when storing weight you'd be able to do all sorts of weird things, paradoxically you'd be able to lift larger objects because less stress is placed on you from your own body.

did anyone else notice the change in the magic system?

 

sazed said multiple times how the weight made it hard for him to move, how his hands felt like Iron balls on his wrists.

 

then POOF!

 

wax becomes strong enough to support his weight and is seriously badchull because of it.

[Voidus]

did anyone else notice the change in the magic system?

 

sazed said multiple times how the weight made it hard for him to move, how his hands felt like Iron balls on his wrists.

 

then POOF!

 

wax becomes strong enough to support his weight and is seriously badchull because of it.

I think it was largely due to changing how weight worked behind the scenes, it's always been a weird trait.

[natc]

How often haa Wax actually stayed heavy and moved with his muscles though?

The power can support your weight, obviously, it doesn't crush you like normal gravity does to beached whales and whatnot, but moving would be a different matter right?

[Voidus]

How often haa Wax actually stayed heavy and moved with his muscles though?

The power can support your weight, obviously, it doesn't crush you like normal gravity does to beached whales and whatnot, but moving would be a different matter right?

Depends how exactly you were changed to cope with it, if it just gave you magic pewter-style strength then it depends how exactly it scales to how much you tap, does it just give you enough to not be crushed and that's it? Or does it just greatly increase your bodies compressive strength? In which case pulling your leg up to walk would be impossible without snapping every muscle fiber. 

[Observer]

I always assumed that since Wax can have an easier time moving around while lighter, albeit at the cost of muscle strength and ability to hold himself up (which is irrelevant unless he's climbing or doing something against gravity without Steel), that taping weight would make it proportionately difficult to move himself, at least enough to be noticeable.

Thanks for the Bands quote, by the way. That was the one. It does seem that the "compensation" aspect of feruchemy does cut both ways. Otherwise somebody lightweight would be much more powerful than they should be, or somebody storing strength would....I have no idea what that would do but it would be weird. 

 

I am willing to buy that the mental aspect of speed is not 1:1. That actually makes more sense to me. I'd also be willing to buy that what appears to be perception speed is actually a mix between heightened perception speed and heightened reflexes. But regardless of that, the evidence points to you losing at minimum some of your "speed of thought" while storing Steel. How much isn't really important.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Observer

[Master_Moridin]

Depends how exactly you were changed to cope with it, if it just gave you magic pewter-style strength then it depends how exactly it scales to how much you tap, does it just give you enough to not be crushed and that's it? Or does it just greatly increase your bodies compressive strength? In which case pulling your leg up to walk would be impossible without snapping every muscle fiber. 

 

I wonder if it's directly affecting his body's ability to generate force.  

 

When he taps mass his body starts generating enough force to keep from collapsing in on itself, but not enough to make moving as easier as before, and when he stores the force his body outputs drops to a point it makes doing something like a pull-up more difficult, but not enough to make moving around difficult.

 

So like, if he taps 2x mass, he generates 1.3x force and if he stores 0.5x mass, he generates 0.7x force?

 

(just to put some vague unfounded numbers there)

[Voidus]

I always assumed that since Wax can have an easier time moving around while lighter, albeit at the cost of muscle strength and ability to hold himself up (which is irrelevant unless he's climbing or doing something against gravity without Steel), that taping weight would make it proportionately difficult to move himself, at least enough to be noticeable.

Thanks for the Bands quote, by the way. That was the one. It does seem that the "compensation" aspect of feruchemy does cut both ways. Otherwise somebody lightweight would be much more powerful than they should be, or somebody storing strength would....I have no idea what that would do but it would be weird. 

 

I am willing to buy that the mental aspect of speed is not 1:1. That actually makes more sense to me. I'd also be willing to buy that what appears to be perception speed is actually a mix between heightened perception speed and heightened reflexes. But regardless of that, the evidence points to you losing at minimum some of your "speed of thought" while storing Steel. How much isn't really important.

Have really floppy skin while their muscles shrank?

[Observer]

Somebody needs to ask Brandon if you have to move to store speed. It would answer a lot of questions about how it works.

(Putting money on the table he's going to take time in TLM to demonstrate why Steelrunners aren't ruling the world. It wouldn't be that hard to make it Awesome Yet Impractical.)

[Voidus]

Somebody needs to ask Brandon if you have to move to store speed. It would answer a lot of questions about how it works.

(Putting money on the table he's going to take time in TLM to demonstrate why Steelrunners aren't ruling the world. It wouldn't be that hard to make it Awesome Yet Impractical.)

Someone (Pathfinder I think) Brought up before that Sazed stored some while stationary at some point in a lock. Also now that I think of it while he was studying he was storing some, so it's possible at least, though maybe not as effective.

[CancerPuppy]

But it functions completely different because of all the reasons that allomancy is different then feruchemy. 

I understand their differences, but wouldn't their similarities and their origin give them more common ground? If allomancer A can slow down time, including the way you perceive it (inside the bubble), then wouldn't Feruchemist A have power along the same lines? It just seems like our perceptions only allow for speed to be the useful one, but in a balanced system wouldn't slowing down time be just as useful? and is it equally hard to store slowness as it is to store speed?

 

hmmm maybe ignore these for now. I wasn't aware that three pages had popped up behind my last reply lol

 

alright screw this I'm back. Wax can tap his weight abilities, meaning that if he goes one way, he's storing up the other right? why not with speed? perhaps the way it works is simply mental? you need to slow down, you tap slow and speed is stored up to compensate? why not? seriously, I'd love for this to be toppled over completely.

Edited February 24, 2016 by CancerPuppy

[Observer]

When Wax wants to be lighter he has to store weight. It's not possible afaik to tap "lightweightedness". And it isn't possible to "Tap slowness". We know that it isn't just a matter of perception because you can actually fill up a metalmind with an attribute. Unless we're saying that all storing is, in fact, just tapping the opposite, which makes no sense because that would mean all metal was just naturally filled with a given attribute. That, and you could do that, people would just store away weakness in metalminds to become stupidly strong without ever bothering to do it the normal way. It cheats the main drawback of Feruchemy.

 

I have no idea if that's what you were talking about :/

[Yata]

I was thinking:

Speed is one of the attributes (with for example Healing) that need "high multiplicator" (with a loss of power) to be very useful in battle.

Much more is probably limited in the max Store-rate (like Strenght and Healing).

 

But why is Healing Feruchemy more usable ?

I have a possible answer: To use Speed you have tap enough Feruchemical charge to influence the whole body, while with the Healing you influence only the damaged part of body.

 

Well this is a possible explaination of the difficult to use Speed Feruchemy, just a mix of: Low Storage rate, High multiplex and high consume to influence the whole body.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Yata