Returned, Divine Breath, and Splinters

[Corax]

Okay, it's very possible that this has already been answered or addressed elsewhere and I missed it (in which case, please point me there), but I'm a little unclear about who exactly, the Returned are.

 

What I mean is that the other Splinters we've seen in the Cosmere are sapient, whereas the Divine Breath is referred to as a Splinter, but not the Returned. The Returned themselves are almost entirely tabula rasa, so are their souls still there, but somehow cut off from their Identity, or are the bodies simply vessels/meat suits for the Divine Breaths? 

 

Personally, I'd suspect that they are more the former, but Bonded so tightly with their partnering Divine Breath as to be functionally indistinguishable. 

 

I know a lot of that is very much the citation-needed sort of speculation, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Corax

[Oversleep]

I actually suspect it's something similar to Parshendi Forms. Merging with the Splinter.

[Nashan’Elin]

It seems that Returned can remember, rarely

Like Lightsong at the end of Warbreaker

so it seems to suggest that their Identity is just repressed by the Splinter. 

Also, I would just like to say I love the term "meat suits" 

[Corax]

It seems that Returned can remember, rarely

Like Lightsong at the end of Warbreaker

so it seems to suggest that their Identity is just repressed by the Splinter.

Also, I would just like to say I love the term "meat suits"

Hehehe, thank you. *bow*

I agree with you, and for that reason, too. The only reason I fielded the other option was due to Vasher's description in chapter 46 wherein he refers to them by his own (and presumably the Five Scholars') nomenclature: Type One BioChromatic Entity; Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestation in a Deceased Host. I fully expect that Vasher, while old and well-traveled, may not have a huge understanding of Realmistic Theory, and the name may be intentionally or unintentionally misleading with the word "Host."

I wonder, though, where are the minds of the Splinters that are the Divine Breaths. Maybe not all Splinters are fully sapient? Maybe they exist in a state similar to (Stormlight spoiler)

spren who have only a weak connection to their Bonded, like Syl after Kaladin goes against his oaths?

But that doesn't quite feel like it fits. All the other Splinters we've met have been intelligent: Skaze, Seons,

(Stormlight spoiler)

some spren

and I suspect even

(Bands of Mourning/Secret History spoiler)

the few Splinters Ruin managed to hack off of Fuzz, if that is indeed why Khriss and Nazh put out an advert in the broadsheets asking if people had tools that talked to them.

So where are the minds of the Divine Breaths? (And that makes me wonder if each Splinter is part of how Hallandren Returned are named?)

Edited February 22, 2016 by Corax

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

And that makes me wonder if each Splinter is part of how Hallandren Returned are named?

 

Nope, sorry, the Returned are named by the priesthood.

Apart from their epiteths (the bold etc.) which are probably based on the way the host died, I get the feeling it's pretty arbitrary.

[Argent]

This is pretty much the exact question I intend to find the answer to during tonight's Chicago signing.

[Oversleep]

Splinters doesn't necessarily have to be intelligent, right?

[Argent]

One of Brandon's definitions reads: "A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness."

 

So self-aware. That could be interpreted as intelligent, depending on how you define those things.

[Corax]

Ah, thank you, Argent. I was just about to look for that WoB.

About their names, I know the priests name them and that Lightsong thinks they're dumb, but I think he might be a little off with his theory of... was it drunken monkeys? If someone is taking the religion seriously, there would be at least something that influences the names of Hallandren Returned. It might be unconnected to anything significant to the Cosmere, but it's probably beyond pulling adjectives and nouns out of their respective hats. (Or I'm being silly and there's info out there that says that's exactly what they're doing.)

[Nashan’Elin]

I don't know about the names meaning anything, they seem pretty random to me (see Mirthgiver- God of Laughter. Described by Lightsong as being ugly as a rock and twice as dull)

But do we have confirmation that Splinters have to know anything? The Returned's mind could just be a brand-new Splinter that has awareness but no memories

[natc]

One of Brandon's definitions reads: "A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness."

So self-aware. That could be interpreted as intelligent, depending on how you define those things.

Unless it just refers to things like repeatedly saying "I am a stick" forever.

[Argent]

So I did ask my question. And Brandon misunderstood it at first, so by the time I got around to correcting him, I was riding the hype train so hard, I legitimately forgot what he answered me... But it should be in the Chicago audio, so somebody is going to dig it out soon hopefully.

[King's Twit]

I don't know about the names meaning anything, they seem pretty random to me (see Mirthgiver- God of Laughter. Described by Lightsong as being ugly as a rock and twice as dull)

But do we have confirmation that Splinters have to know anything? The Returned's mind could just be a brand-new Splinter that has awareness but no memories

 

But at least one of the names has turned out to be prophetic. Vasher was named Warbreaker by the cult of the Returned, and he was the one who ended the Manywar and who will probably play a role in ending the war to come. This could be a coincidence, of course, but it might be a hint at the importance of the names as well.

 

I can't remember the exact details or find it, but I recall a section of the annotations where Brandon describes the process of how the Cult of the Returned pick the names, or at least how they once did, and it had something to do with a process involving Commands revealing the name to the priests.

Edited February 23, 2016 by King's Twit

[Corax]

@Argent: that's awesome! I'll try to listen to the audio myself, if I can.

@King's Twit: that does seem to ring a bell. I've just started going through the annotations in order, so I'll keep an eye out for that.

[Yata]

I always though (and some Sharder dislike my view) the Divine Breaths are Splinters that Enodwment creates for the specific Deadman when he/she accepts to Return (and reclaim it when the Returned dies). They develop some kind of self awares (at the level to a not-Radiant Spren) but they are soon Bond with the Returned himself. this prevent further mental develop.

 

The power after all "want to be used" and without guide begin to develop a mind of its own.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu]

Sorry to resurrect a mostly dead thread, but I didn't want to create a new one when this one fits so well.

The discussion has mostly centered around the fact that Splinters are supposed to be "Power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no… no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness." (Thanks @Argent).  Divine Breaths don't seem to have any self-awareness of their own, any self-awareness, yet they're considered Splinters, and that seems confusing, but I think I have one possible answer.

We have at least surmised (not sure if it's confirmed) that regular Breaths carry a Cognitive command with them, part of the Awakeners own mind, as it were, and that they actually gain a bit of sapience or at least sentience from that, since that Breath is originally part of someone's soul.

What if Endowment is imprinting knowledge from the original person when she Returns them, but it's actually the Divine Breath that is aware and in control, and the person themselves has already passed into the Beyond?  The body of the person who was Returned would be used by the Splinter that is the Divine Breath, and she would imprint that person's original Breath onto it to give it a starting point for developing it's own self-awareness, and then that Splinter is bound by a portion of Endowment's own Intent to find it's intended beneficiary and Endow them with the healing abilities of that Divine Breath.

That would seem to me to wrap up the confusion between Divine Breath, Splinter, and the splinter not seeming to have it's own self-awareness, without anything needing to suppress it's self-awareness.

jW

[Argent]

I've had a very similar theory (but I don't remember if it was refuted in some way). I believed that Splinter of Endowment, the Divine Breath, might be the driver behind each Returned - the mind behind the (reshaped) body of the deceased. In other words, Stennimar and Lightsong are two different entities, with a tiny bit of Stennimar occasionally bleeding through for whatever reason. But really it's Lightsong, the Divine Breath, that's driving things.

[Jondesu]

45 minutes ago, Argent said:

I've had a very similar theory (but I don't remember if it was refuted in some way). I believed that Splinter of Endowment, the Divine Breath, might be the driver behind each Returned - the mind behind the (reshaped) body of the deceased. In other words, Stennimar and Lightsong are two different entities, with a tiny bit of Stennimar occasionally bleeding through for whatever reason. But really it's Lightsong, the Divine Breath, that's driving things.

Yep, basically exactly what I was describing.

jW

[Argent]

Yeah, I don't know what happened to that theory. I know I was going to ask Brandon at one point, but I don't think I did. 

[Yata]

I considerated this possibility some time ago. But someone posted me a WoB who said that the Divine Breath are not sapient and this stop me to develop further the theory.

To be honest I think that the "a breath every week to stay alive" may be a proof of the mortal's soul in a Returned. I interpret this as the Investiture needed from the Returned's soul/mind to avoid the call of the Beyond. It's a deadman after all.

[hellfun]

After reading this threed i thought what if

(Stormlight spoiler)

Spoiler

Returned bonded with with their divine bereath like sprens with humans. Sort of like a nahel-bond only the other way round.

 

That would explain the los of memories as well as they ganing investure and beeing unable to split that ivesture up( like turning the Divine Breaths into many normal breathes)

The breath a week would be an investure that was expended for the bond (on roschar there is enought stormlight that nobody would notic such a little drain)

Edited September 30, 2016 by hellfun