Wayne Disapproval Thread (Potential Wayne-related spoilers)

[Master Elodin]

I like Wayne for three reasons

1. Although he is comic relief, he certainly does have his moments e.g. BoM

2. He can add two and two to get a pickle

3. The small crimes he commits are largely outweighed by the good he has done

[junior]

I've got a few comments to add -

 

 

First, Wayne has a strong moral sense.  It's true that his personal actions sometimes seem to fly in the face of it.  But that's a problem of perception on his part.  Where the big picture is concerned, morals and fairness are important to him.  Case in point, at the end of SoS he starts financing a young inventor, and it appears that the primary reason that he's doing so is because her father was cheated out of the credit for his inventions.

 

Second, Wayne's damaged.  It's not clear how or why.  But the "Wax is dead" scene in BoM left me with a very strong impression that Wayne has something dark inside of him.  He uses his Wayne persona to help Wax, and that apparently keeps the darkness in check.  But I'm left wondering if we've ever really met Wayne.  It's possible that his need for fronts is why he has the "trading" problem, and why he was so obsessive about Ranette (note that as soon as Marasi tells him that it's possible for people to get over someone, he gets over Ranette).  Hopefully his new relationship with MeLaan will continue, and she can keep him from falling to darkness.

[Stormgate]

Wayne...can be seen as a simple comic relief with kleptomaniac tendencies. There is obviously a large number of people who think otherwise.

Those who love Wayne have the rest of this forum to praise, adore, support, and otherwise express their opinions on Wayne. Please, allow those who don't share your opinions to express them without the online scorching that the Internet is known for.

Note: On the subject of Wayne, I think his character can be debated. This is not, however, the place for that argument.

[killersquirrel59]

Ok, I really like Wayne as a character, so just posting my bias upfront. I've been absent from the forums for a while and this is the first I'm hearing of the Church of Wayne, but will most likely become a proud member.

 

That said...

 

I think your issue with starting this bitching thread is that you started it with the idea of not liking Wayne due to his purpose in story, noting how you feel he has grown into a one-dimensional and pointless charicature whose purpose has been served and is now diminishing the story. These are objections on a meta-level that have nothing to do with his in-character choices or personality traits, and yet every single person who has responded (on either side I'll add) has completely ignored the OP and been fighting to attack/defend his actions rather than his purpose. This seems to miss the point entirely. That's my $0.02 anyway.

 

@Kaymyth:

Oh, and speaking as a high functioning autistic myself, if someone were to offer me a cure, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Sorry to burst your self-appointed PC bubble oh great Speaker for the Autistic.

[Kaymyth]

@Kaymyth:

Oh, and speaking as a high functioning autistic myself, if someone were to offer me a cure, I'd take it in a heartbeat. Sorry to burst your self-appointed PC bubble oh great Speaker for the Autistic.

 

You are, in fact, the first autistic person I know who has expressed this opinion to me.  I have quite a few RL friends on the spectrum, and the universally consider it to be part and parcel of their personality.  To the point where I've heard them go off on some rather vitriolic rants about charities like Autism Speaks and flat-out classify it as a hate group.

 

But thank you for the different perspective.

[killersquirrel59]

You are, in fact, the first autistic person I know who has expressed this opinion to me.  I have quite a few RL friends on the spectrum, and the universally consider it to be part and parcel of their personality.  To the point where I've heard them go off on some rather vitriolic rants about charities like Autism Speaks and flat-out classify it as a hate group.

 

But thank you for the different perspective.

As a culture we have decided that if something is a disease, whether mental or physical, that somehow means it should carry a stigma of something wrong with the person. We have a tendency to define a person by a condition they have. I flagrantly disagree with this cultural phenomenon. It was wrong when we ostracized those suffering a horrific disease as lepers, it was wrong when we discriminated against gay people as deviants, and I think it is just as wrong (though admittedly more benevolently intended) to cling to a condition such as Autism as a cultural identifier. When we allow ourselves to be defined by a flaw, that flaw will be all anyone else will see. I am not an Autistic, I am a person who suffers from a condition of Autism. And it has profoundly affected my life, sometimes in positive ways, but mostly not. If I refused to accept it as flaw and a disease, I would never have developed the skills and coping mechanisms I needed to overcome the obstacles it presents in my life.

 

I apologize for snapping at you a bit. I have known far too many others on the spectrum who are the type you have mentioned. In my experience their refusal to accept it as the disease it is simply gives an excuse for them not to work to overcome it, which I find very frustrating to watch. There is nothing wrong with accepting a condition as part of your life, but that doesn't free you from the responsibility of working to function as best you can despite your weaknesses. I know I'm speaking in generalities and I cannot speak for those you know, but in my experience, the refusal to call it what it is has been nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify giving up.

[Kaymyth]

As a culture we have decided that if something is a disease, whether mental or physical, that somehow means it should carry a stigma of something wrong with the person. We have a tendency to define a person by a condition they have. I flagrantly disagree with this cultural phenomenon. It was wrong when we ostracized those suffering a horrific disease as lepers, it was wrong when we discriminated against gay people as deviants, and I think it is just as wrong (though admittedly more benevolently intended) to cling to a condition such as Autism as a cultural identifier. When we allow ourselves to be defined by a flaw, that flaw will be all anyone else will see. I am not an Autistic, I am a person who suffers from a condition of Autism. And it has profoundly affected my life, sometimes in positive ways, but mostly not. If I refused to accept it as flaw and a disease, I would never have developed the skills and coping mechanisms I needed to overcome the obstacles it presents in my life.

 

I apologize for snapping at you a bit. I have known far too many others on the spectrum who are the type you have mentioned. In my experience their refusal to accept it as the disease it is simply gives an excuse for them not to work to overcome it, which I find very frustrating to watch. There is nothing wrong with accepting a condition as part of your life, but that doesn't free you from the responsibility of working to function as best you can despite your weaknesses. I know I'm speaking in generalities and I cannot speak for those you know, but in my experience, the refusal to call it what it is has been nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to justify giving up.

 

This is actually rather different from my experiences with the people I know.  Most of them have extremely good coping skills; a couple to the point where I had no idea that they were autistic until they told me, and then I could see some of the markers.  They are able to both accept the differences in their brain wiring as being part of who they are and still acknowledge that they need to put in the work to be able to function in a society that isn't designed for them.

 

I do think it's possible to embrace your inner awesome while still owning the fact that your differences will still cause challenges in your everyday life.  And I really want for my nephew to be able to grow up in a world that can simultaneously accommodate his differences and teach him the skills to be able to function and thrive and still not bombard him with the daily message that he is somehow broken and flawed.

[stgermaine]

Wayne is basically just Matt Cauthon. Wayne is to Matt as Force Awakens is to New Hope. Simple ripoff with the most minor of changes.

 

Edit: I got the new Star Wars name wrong...humiliating.

Edited April 29, 2016 by stgermaine

[Citadel16]

Wayne is basically just Matt Cauthon. Wayne is to Matt as Force Unleashed is to New Hope. Simple ripoff with the most minor of changes.

nah, cant be. 

 

cauthon has WAY more pride than wayne.

 

that being said. I like wayne as a fictional character.

 

if I met him in real life, well... he probably will never have enough health for that encounter.

 

just remember all the good things he did.

 

-gave that landlady person a huge tip for leaving her to deal with the police (see page 244. he sort of disguises it as a trade for putting his feet on the furniture)

 

-he fed a bunch of orphaned children (haha get it? bunch? no? ok).

 

-often times he steals trades things for things of more value.  he threw around aluminum guns and bullets like they were lint from his pockets it seemed (a metaphor worthy of david).

 

he has a soft spot for people who are worse off than he, or that didn't deserve some trouble that he caused.

 

but I dislike most of his more inappropriate comments and he definitely needs someone who isnt bothered by shooting him in the foot every once in a while.

[AerionBFII]

I don't hate him but if the whole book was about him i probably couldn't read it.

I just don't enjoy him, he has a few good parts don't get me wrong but he is not my kind of character.

[Erinzard]

Wayne is basically just Matt Cauthon. Wayne is to Matt as Force Unleashed is to New Hope. Simple ripoff with the most minor of changes.

I got a much different vibe from Wayne in SoS and most of BoM than from Alloy. I kept thinking of Mat too because it felt like Brandon had just sat down at a table and said, "Ok, what sort of whacky things can Wayne say? We have two bad metaphors, one over the top outburst, and an outlandish claim." 

 

It just sort of jarred me out of the story a bit when he would speak with his, "Whelp I reckon you fellers is right good" talk that I didn't remember being so prominent or pronounced in Alloy. Maybe he's losing himself in his accents like Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder...If that's the case that would actually be kind of cool that he forgot his own original accent, but unlikely since he's so good at managing them.

 

That said, I did like his character growth and imagery at the end of Bands, I like him as a character and I like the dynamic he creates with Wax and Marasi and the tension between him and Steris but I feel the execution is somewhat lacking. Brandon is amazing and I deeply appreciate him, his work, and his connection to fans and the community. At the same time, I can't help but thinking another month or two of editing could have taken SoS and BoM from pretty enjoyable to absolutely stellar. End rant. Continue rabid Sanderson fanhood.

 

Also, stgermaine, did you mean The Force Awakens? If so, I respectfully disagree. If not, ignore this and have a great day.

[stgermaine]

I did mean the Force Awakens, as a big Star Wars fan that is incredible embarrassing! I would have rather forgotten one of my kids' names! The plot was identical, which is fine, just underwhelming

[Erinzard]

No worries, the other day I meant to say Star Wars and I accidentally said Star Trek. Don't tell anyone guys, the nerd-cred I would lose if my other friends found out.... 

[stgermaine]

Did you see they are launching a new Star Trek series? Never watched one before, but I might give it a try.

[the winter system]

Wayne's reaction to Ranette being LGBT was TOTALLY uncalled for! "It's just a phase?" The threesome proposal! Yes, he's supposed to be vulgar, but not in a homophobic manner! He could've put those homophobic comments in the mouth of a bad character, not a good one. It's totally wrong! I get it's all "historical accuracy," but at least put it in the mouth of a character who ISN'T supposed to be a favorite! Those lines kind of spoiled Wayne's character for me! I loved him as a character, but those offensive comments!? NO! I'm biromantic gay myself and I hate the way it made him a horrible person. 

[stgermaine]

Ok. You are being a little over sensitive there. Plenty to dislike about him, but he is not a homophobe. He also said her shooting at him is a sign of her love. He says funny, but completely ridiculous and obviously untrue statements. It's his thing.

I am truly sorry if you have had to deal with hate, it's absolutely horrible and unspeakable and our country is finally turning around. Let's funnel our energy into "attacking" the work of the politicians and religious leaders whom actually harm people, not fictional characters.

[the winter system]

He's not, but seriously, don't say 'overreacting' or 'too sensitive.' I don't mean he's a homophobe, I mean he said a few homophobic things which could reinforce behavior of already homophobic people. I know a lot of bi and lesbian girls have to deal with threesome requests on a daily basis, even if they don't even like threesomes. Same with being told it's just a phase. The thing is, it hurts me when I read it from someone I like. It hurt me.

 

Again, I'm not attacking Brandon Sanderson. I'm disagreeing with this harmful part of his writing. Media does not exist in a vacumn. 

[Vissy]

This is actually rather different from my experiences with the people I know.  Most of them have extremely good coping skills; a couple to the point where I had no idea that they were autistic until they told me, and then I could see some of the markers.  They are able to both accept the differences in their brain wiring as being part of who they are and still acknowledge that they need to put in the work to be able to function in a society that isn't designed for them.

 

I do think it's possible to embrace your inner awesome while still owning the fact that your differences will still cause challenges in your everyday life.  And I really want for my nephew to be able to grow up in a world that can simultaneously accommodate his differences and teach him the skills to be able to function and thrive and still not bombard him with the daily message that he is somehow broken and flawed.

 

The only way to avoid being defined by your flaws is, unfortunately, to do your best to ignore them and trying to live as if they did not affect you. 

[Citadel16]

The only way to avoid being defined by your flaws is, unfortunately, to do your best to ignore them and trying to live as if they did not affect you. 

 

is a man defined by the loss of an arm? well let me tell you, he can probably use his remaining arm with three times the dexterity that you can. did he do that by ignoring his lost arm? nope. he accepted the fact and then moved on. he is not defined by his lost arm he is defined by how he reacts to losing his arm.

 

you aren't defined by your flaws, You are defined by how you react to your flaws.

 

does that make sense?

Edited May 19, 2016 by WarriorMark16

[the winter system]

Ok. You are being a little over sensitive there. Plenty to dislike about him, but he is not a homophobe. He also said her shooting at him is a sign of her love. He says funny, but completely ridiculous and obviously untrue statements. It's his thing.

I am truly sorry if you have had to deal with hate, it's absolutely horrible and unspeakable and our country is finally turning around. Let's funnel our energy into "attacking" the work of the politicians and religious leaders whom actually harm people, not fictional characters.

Can you not say I'm being oversensative? That's kind of rude. I didn't say he was a homophobe, he said some homophobic things. I'm not attacking Brandon Sanderson. I'm just annoyed by some messed up lines that ticked me off and made me feel invalid. The whole "It's just a phase," and the threesome reference are common responses to coming out as a lesbian or bi, and some people react the same way you did when one of us protests it. 

[Vissy]

What I said.

[the winter system]

(Sorry I posted that twice. Thought my computer had messed up and it hadn't posted) 

[CaptainRyan]

Wayne's reaction to Ranette being LGBT was TOTALLY uncalled for! "It's just a phase?" The threesome proposal! Yes, he's supposed to be vulgar, but not in a homophobic manner! He could've put those homophobic comments in the mouth of a bad character, not a good one. It's totally wrong! I get it's all "historical accuracy," but at least put it in the mouth of a character who ISN'T supposed to be a favorite! Those lines kind of spoiled Wayne's character for me! I loved him as a character, but those offensive comments!? NO! I'm biromantic gay myself and I hate the way it made him a horrible person. 

 

If anything, I am of the opinion that having a "good" character make awkward, hurtful, insensitive etc. comments is a positive thing. Why? Because it can help us recognize that even "good" people hold "bad" opinions, ideas etc. Wayne is a good person who puts himself in harm's way to save total strangers on a regular basis. He is also, apparently, insensitive to the struggles of the LGBTA+ community. If a "bad" character had said those things we would just have a one-dimensional bad character. By having a "good" character, maybe even a character some of us admire, say those things then it can become a moment of self-reflection. 

 

Of course, this is just my opinion and every reader is entitled to their own opinion but I really do feel like Sanderson's characters having flaws, "bad" opinions, etc. helps make them more real and more relatable. 

[Arrae]

If anything, I am of the opinion that having a "good" character make awkward, hurtful, insensitive etc. comments is a positive thing. Why? Because it can help us recognize that even "good" people hold "bad" opinions, ideas etc. Wayne is a good person who puts himself in harm's way to save total strangers on a regular basis. He is also, apparently, insensitive to the struggles of the LGBTA+ community. If a "bad" character had said those things we would just have a one-dimensional bad character. By having a "good" character, maybe even a character some of us admire, say those things then it can become a moment of self-reflection. 

 

Of course, this is just my opinion and every reader is entitled to their own opinion but I really do feel like Sanderson's characters having flaws, "bad" opinions, etc. helps make them more real and more relatable. 

 

It's true that characters need flaws and limitations to be interesting, but authors have to be careful. If not blatantly obvious or pointed out by the story, people might see a "good" character espousing a "bad" belief, and think that it's perfectly alright because the "good" character is saying it.

 

In fact, a "good" character with "bad" beliefs might be interpreted as the author themself promoting the "bad" belief. This is further compounded if the "bad" belief is still prevalent in many parts of the world. For example, readers might react poorly if a male protagonist says that a woman's boobs are more important than her abilities, especially if nothing happens in the story to suggest that attitude is wrong.

 

Authors have to be careful with they beliefs the give their characters. In this case, Wayne was being insensitive to the struggles of the LGBTA+ community with his "it's just a phase" and threesome suggestions, and it might not have been the best decision to put that in there, especially since many LGBTA+ people face similar situations in real life.

 

Wayne's comments were insensitive, vulgar, and homophopic. However, we can and should assume that Brandon intended to show Wayne's character, not preach opinions about LGBTA+ people.

[CaptainRyan]

It's true that characters need flaws and limitations to be interesting, but authors have to be careful. If not blatantly obvious or pointed out by the story, people might see a "good" character espousing a "bad" belief, and think that it's perfectly alright because the "good" character is saying it.

 

In fact, a "good" character with "bad" beliefs might be interpreted as the author themself promoting the "bad" belief. This is further compounded if the "bad" belief is still prevalent in many parts of the world. For example, readers might react poorly if a male protagonist says that a woman's boobs are more important than her abilities, especially if nothing happens in the story to suggest that attitude is wrong.

 

Authors have to be careful with they beliefs the give their characters. In this case, Wayne was being insensitive to the struggles of the LGBTA+ community with his "it's just a phase" and threesome suggestions, and it might not have been the best decision to put that in there, especially since many LGBTA+ people face similar situations in real life.

 

Wayne's comments were insensitive, vulgar, and homophopic. However, we can and should assume that Brandon intended to show Wayne's character, not preach opinions about LGBTA+ people.

 

Excellent point and one with which I agree.

 

IIRC, Wayne was corrected on both occasions by the people he was speaking with - Marasi made it quite clear that Ranette's interest in women was not a "phase" and Ranette reacted negatively to Wayne's suggestion of a threesome. Wayne himself even backed away from the remark.

 

Perhaps, because I understand that Wayne's remarks were insensitive, I am reading too heavily in to the reactions that other, less "aware" people, might miss but I like to think that Sanderson, through those negative reactions to Wayne's comments, made it clear that Wayne was in the wrong for saying those things.