Yata Posted November 8, 2016 Report Share Posted November 8, 2016 9 hours ago, Pagerunner said: Maybe this is only news to me, I just noticed that crandonsanderson.com has an extensive FAQ section. A lot of questions are lifted straight from the Theoryland database, but I figured I'd check and see if I could find any new stuff, and, hey, what do you know? Confirmation of SSFH's place in the timeline. It's after Warbreaker. I discovered it just now But we don'w know how far Warbreaker is from Mistborn so in the end we know quite nothing more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelheart Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 (edited) On 2/24/2016 at 1:08 PM, Pagerunner said: I re-read it last night. A few things jumped out at me, so I'm gonna throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see if any of it sticks. Please feel free to tear these apart - mostly, I'm just spitballing, so I won't take it personal. Timeline. I'm trying to reconcile the time line of this story with Nazh and his actions in the rest of the Cosmere. We definitely know that Nazh was born prior to Mistborn. But he swears with "Shadows" and has a silver knife, which indicates (to me) that he comes from Hell, not from Homeland. Silence's grandparents were the among first to land on Hell, so let's generously say that SSFH happened 70 years after the first Forescouts went there. If SSFH is after Mistborn chronologically, that means that the Forescouts can only have settled Hell, at most, 70 years before Mistborn 1, most likely much less (depending on the when Nazh and Silence were born). So, I'm not even sure if SSFH happens before or after (or concurrent with) the original Mistborn trilogy. But, we have confirmation that the story happens in the "back half" of the Cosmere sequence, prior to Stormlight. Does that mean that Mistborn is also in the back half of the Cosmere sequence? What is the first half, anyways? Dragonsteel, White Sand, Elantris? Also, Hoid had to be somewhere else during this story. What would tie him down, so he couldn't even stop in for a cameo? What if he had to be on Scadrial? What if SSFH happens concurrently with Mistborn? Mistborn: Secret History. Well... spoilers. Reveal hidden contents Assuming SSFH happens around the same time as Mistborn, it seems like the reason the Shades are more active is because people are moving in on their territory. They're getting driven out by the Fortfolk and all their silver, so they're setting out on the Cognitive Realm to find other places. Since the Elantrians are used to seeing Shades, but Kelsier doesn't see one in Mistborn, it causes me to think that Threnody is closer to Sel than to Scadrial. Homeland. Since the book was inspired partly by the Puritan settlement of the New World, my original interpretation was that the Evil was a social or religious event (possibly supernatural in nature) that had occurred on the mainland, and the Forescouts had fled to another continent to live under their own laws. I also thought the Evil had been responsible for the Shades; a mass Cognition that changed the very land the Forescouts went to. The second read-through, however, raised some questions. The Evil killed; Silence states that explicitly. It could be Spanish-Inquisition-like executions, or it could be Alderaan-like destruction of a planet. Much vaguer. The Shades (and Hell) had existed well before the Evil; the Forescouts knew it was Hell before they went there. So, I need to amend my interpretation. Now, I think Homeland is gone, not just hostile to the Forescouts and their descendants. And even though there are clear allusions in the text to travel across the sea (A major fort is Lastport, and it's referred to as the most powerful fort on "this continent"), I'm not sure that Homeland and Hell are actually on the same world? We've seen large Shardpools before - the Purelake on Roshar is a huge Perpendicularity, and three members of the 17th Shard used it to Worldhop. What if the Forescouts Worldhopped on accident, winding up on another world (Threnody) while leaving behind their own world (Homeland)? Heck, there are very few references to how the Forescouts and later settlers arrived; maybe they knew they were Worldhopping, and just didn't mention it to their descendants? (Since we only get Silence's point-of-view, it may have just been that her grandparents didn't think it necessary to mention to her all the details of how they got from Homeland to Hell.) And, as one final point in this rambling section, they never refer to their homeland as "Threnody." There is "Homeland," and there is "Hell." The name of the planet is only mentioned in the author's introduction. So, to sum it all up, Homeland is destroyed, it might be another Shardworld. (If you look ahead to the next point, it might even be a major Shardworld.) Justice. "Justice died in Homeland." This helped drive my previous interpretation of Homeland, that it was a religious or social corruption that denied justice to those who left to Hell. Discarding that interpretation, it takes on a very different meaning. Since we're hyper-aware of anything that might sound like a Shard, I'm sure this jumped out to a lot of us. But, then, we learned there was no Shard on Threnody, so this couldn't be a Shard of Justice. But if Homeland is a different world than Threnody, a Shard of Justice could have died in Homeland, while the inhabitants of the world escaped to Threnody. (The fact that I recently proposed Justice as a new Shard in another thread is immaterial to the topic. Please move along.) Concrete. Is this an anachronism, for a 1600-s American analogue? Silence uses it to mount silver rings into the ground around her waystop. Could it have come from another Shardworld? God Beyond. Silence mentions "old books," which talk of the God Beyond and call the "this land the home of the damned." The God Beyond is a concept going across the Cosmere; I wonder what else is in these books. It might give Hell a broader context throughout the Cosmere; it might not just be the souls of people from Homeland, but from all the fallen worlds. (Who was just wondering if svrakiss were Shades?) Questions for Brandon. If anyone sees these before going to a Calamity signing, here are some questions that I think would be fruitful (unless they've been answered and I've missed them, in which case please point me towards the answer and ask something else): When does SSFH happen with respect to Secret History? How long after the Forescouts landed was Nazh born? Is Homeland on Threnody? How did Silence have concrete? It seems out of place technologically. In terms of the Shard, Khriss explicitly states that Spoiler "Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Ambition Shard here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location." It's at the introduction to the Threnodite System right before SfSinFoH. Edited November 28, 2016 by Steelheart Hid spoilers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted November 23, 2016 Report Share Posted November 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Steelheart said: In terms of the Shard, Khriss explicitly states that "Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Ambition Shard here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location." It's at the introduction to the Threnodite System right before SfSinFoH. Yeah, I know that now! I wish I had some of that knowledge a year or so back when I first proposed this theory. Oh, well, you can't win 'em all... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Please put arcanum unbounded stuff in spoiler tags...my copy hasn´t arrived yet and it seems i can´t even visit threads which are unmarked for arcanum unbounded spoilers because someone is always taking about it without spoilertags... (sorry i´m a bit mad) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PewterAGoldF Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) The grandma seems to think their lineage is very important, more than just family pride? This may possibly even explain why the grandmother has a stronger cognitive shadow, she may have had more investiture through bloodline. Plus, help me out if you can because I dont have my copy right now. One of the characters ponders if there really is a shade of Silence's husband and notes that he doesnt recall her ever having a husband. IIRC he then thinks something like "that would mean that the girl is..." So is there something there?? Did she have a husband and if not where did her oldest daughter come from? Also, Arcanum Unbounded Spoilers: Ambition was a shard there and died there but was shattered somewhere else, this probably means the shard vessel died and could be the cause of the name threnody. If the shard was invested in the planet and had no vessel then how did it leave to be shattered somewhere else, could it have been ripped away thus leaving some investiture behind? Lastly, Kriss said that perpendicularities are difficult to predict and not nice in the way they come about, anyone know whats up with that? Edited February 2, 2017 by PewterAGoldF Getting Spoiler tags right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 1 hour ago, PewterAGoldF said: Spoiler Ambition was a shard there and died there but was shattered somewhere else, this probably means the shard vessel died and could be the cause of the name threnody. If the shard was invested in the planet and had no vessel then how did it leave to be shattered somewhere else, could it have been ripped away thus leaving some investiture behind? AU spoilers as well: Spoiler The way Khriss described it sounded to me like Ambition never Invested in Threnody, but instead in the fight with Odium, "chunks" of his power were somehow torn off and hit Threnody, likely by accident. I don't think Ambition's Vessel died there either, but was wounded, and then limped off elsewhere to where he/she/it was finally shattered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrae Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 10 hours ago, PewterAGoldF said: Plus, help me out if you can because I dont have my copy right now. One of the characters ponders if there really is a shade of Silence's husband and notes that he doesnt recall her ever having a husband. IIRC he then thinks something like "that would mean that the girl is..." So is there something there?? Did she have a husband and if not where did her oldest daughter come from? I think it's likely that the train of thought would be something like "so that would mean that the girl was born from unmarried parents" (in a more concise form, at least). I'm very certain that Silence talked about her dead husband, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, PewterAGoldF said: The grandma seems to think their lineage is very important, more than just family pride? This may possibly even explain why the grandmother has a stronger cognitive shadow, she may have had more investiture through bloodline. Grandma-Shade isn't "stronger" or anything like that...It's just fresh (for a standard Shades) and some part of her aren't erased yet. This would happen to any other fresh Shades, simply usually it is hard to make a specific fresh Shades meets someone important in his life Edited February 3, 2017 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, PewterAGoldF said: Plus, help me out if you can because I dont have my copy right now. One of the characters ponders if there really is a shade of Silence's husband and notes that he doesnt recall her ever having a husband. IIRC he then thinks something like "that would mean that the girl is..." So is there something there?? Did she have a husband and if not where did her oldest daughter come from? Uh.... Quote "I'm with child," Silence said. Grandmother stopped. "William?" "Who else?" Grandmother continued on. "No condemnations?" Silence asked, turning, folding her arms. "It's done," Grandmother said. "We are Forescouts. If this is how we must continue, so be it." Edited February 3, 2017 by Pagerunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) William Ann's parentage came up when they were discussing ownership of the tavern. My impression of the scene was that Theopolis was combining an overt insult (calling Silence's daughter a bastard) with a veiled threat: if she wasn't a legitimate child, her claim to inherit the property might be more easily challenged once Silence is gone. As for the shade, I disagree with Yata. The grandmother is clearly more self aware than any other shade we've seen, and doesn't go berserk when blood is shed. She's been dead for years, so it can't possibly be freshness. Lineage is one possibility, but I think it is more likely to be a combination of her inherent mental strength (by all accounts she was a stubbornly tough woman) and her life experiences. Recall that she forces Silence to practice fighting real shades, during which Silence gets shade touched and healed repeatedly. That lessens the trauma when the actual attack happens in the story. I suspect that when Grandma died she was less traumatized by the transition to shade since she had been touched enough times before, with the result that her mind remained more intact. Edited February 4, 2017 by ccstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ccstat said: As for the shade, I disagree with Yata. The grandmother is clearly more self aware than any other shade we've seen, and doesn't go berserk when blood is shed. She's been dead for years, so it can't possibly be freshness. Lineage is one possibility, but I think it is more likely to be a combination of her inherent mental strength (by all accounts she was a stubbornly tough woman) and her life experiences. Recall that she forces Silence to practice fighting real shades, during which Silence gets shade touched and healed repeatedly. That lessens the trauma when the actual attack happens in the story. I suspect that when Grandma died she was less traumatized by the transition to shade since she had been touched enough times before, with the result that her mind remained more intact. Actually Grandmother goes berserk if blood is shed. She simply doesn't specifically attack Silence...never. I talked about fresh Shades because for the Shades' standard 10-15 years seems to be not much. Actually there may be many Shades like Grandmother in the Forests...it's really hard (or impossible) to understand their weirdness (it's very unlikely that a Shade with a specific "untouchable person" will meet that person. Imagine if Silence didn't trapped Grandmother and instead GM Shade is free in the Forests....how unlikely a possible meeting with Silence is ? Turning into a Shade is described like a tomour forgery....your Soul is actually overwritten, so it's possible the process isn't real finished when the Shade "spawn" and it tooks years to be actually complete Edited February 4, 2017 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccstat Posted February 5, 2017 Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Hmm. I guess you and I interpret that scene differently. I don't see any evidence the she entered the same frenzy that was induced by bloodshed in previous scenes. I agree that there is more to shades than the people of Threnody know, (similar to the way there is more self-awareness in Lifeless than Nalthians believe), but the grandmother still seems special to me. Perhaps not a true outlier, but definitely out on one side of the bell curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesa Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 From what i read in Arcanum unbound, i think the reason she doesnt attack silence (and may be more aware), is because silence has a strong connection in her mind to her grandmothers mind. We have seen how spiritual bonds can create links in the cognitive realm, and im pretty sure their spiritual bond was really strong for better or worse. it may even be silence's cognitive impression of her grandmother feeding the shades identification as her grandmother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) I find it interesting that "Ambitious" things summon the Shades. I know that the lore is based on Jewish Sabbath beliefs, but there seems to be more here, Fire, Working (running) at Night, Speed, Murder, Shedding Blood - These are all Ambitious things. Could these shades be set-off by reminders of the Shard that painfully separated itself? Could they be set off by physical expressions of ambition? On a numerous note, it is funny that pigs keep away the Shades seeing as pig are famously lazy and unambitious.... Edited February 7, 2017 by teknopathetic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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