Theory on Trell

[Bugsy]

So, I just read both BoM and SH today and I was struck by what seemed like it might be a hidden connection as to the connection between what appears to be Kelsier's reincarnation and the worship of Trell. 

 

In the first book, Sazed preaches the religion focused on Trell to Vin, and stresses the fact that they viewed the stars as the many eyes of Trell, which watched over and protected them. Trell's brother only had one eye (the Sun) and, in his jealousy, made it shine brightly to block out the eyes of Trell himself. My theory is that the followers of Trell are specifically opposed to "Kelsier", who has one eye and one eye spike. 

 

This sounds a lot more strenuous on paper, and since I'm not exactly an expert on the Cosmere, I'd happily accept any fact-checking of feedback you guys would be willing to provide.

[NovaSeeker]

Hmm. Something tells me Kelsier is (for the moment) out of Trell's weight division. Trell is giving Harmony a run for his money, and Harmony is currently the biggest confirmed heavyweight there is (He scares even Odium, He-Who-Shatters-Shards.)

 

My theory is that Trell has something to do with the patch of red stars in the night sky, visible from Scadrial, Threnody, and Greater Roshar.

 

This has always seemed portentous to me, a bizarre patch of bright, discolored stars visible from multiple points in the Cosmere. Trell's mythology about being the god "of many eyes" either directly or implicitly (I forget which) refers to this patch of red stars visible from Scadrial 

 

There's also the fact that the Set's Faceless Immortal has red eyes. Red eyes -> Red Stars -> Eyes of Trell

Edited February 9, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Bugsy]

Hmm. Something tells me Kelsier is (for the moment) out of Trell's weight division. Trell is giving Harmony a run for his money, and Harmony is currently the biggest confirmed heavyweight there is (He scares even Odium, He-Who-Shatters-Shards.)

My theory is that Trell has something to do with the patch of red stars in the night sky, visible from Scadrial, Threnody, and Greater Roshar.

This has always seemed portentous to me, a bizarre patch of bright, discolored stars visible from multiple points in the Cosmere. Trell's mythology about being the god "of many eyes" either directly or implicitly (I forget which) refers to this patch of red stars visible from Scadrial

There's also the fact that the Set's Faceless Immortal has red eyes. Red eyes -> Red Stars -> Eyes of Trell

Ah, I wasn't aware of Trell's wider role in the cosmere. I thought perhaps he was an unidentified splinter or something. Thanks for the clarification!

ETA: Do you know if this band of stars was visible from Scadrial both before and after the planet was shifted by Rashek? I'm not sure I recall mention of this in the book

Edited February 9, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[NovaSeeker]

I'm pretty sure from my understanding of events and Cosmere's cosmology that it would be visible in any era.

 

Scadrial, Threnody, and Roshar are all in separate solar systems, orbiting their own suns. The dense patch of red stars is visible in the night sky from each of these's stars orbits. A minor adjustment (on the astronomical scale) of Scadrial's orbit wouldn't make a difference.

[KidWayne]

That red patch of stars is named "Taln's scar." The name "Taln" leads me to think that this abnormal astronomical anomaly (upvotes for alliteration, anyone? ) has more to do with the Heralds than it does with Trell.

There is a lot of speculation on the possibility of a mass exodus from Taldain (the planet where White Sand* takes place). Some think that all of the Heralds from The Stromlight Archive ("SLA") might actually be Taldainians. Others think that Taln's scar could be the remains of an event that destroyed Taldain. Some others think that the Shardholder on Taldain (see SLA spoilers below) may have even destroyed his own planet.

Anyway, people seem to have divided into three camps when it comes to the identity of Trell (look under the first spoiler tag, there are general Cosmere spoilers):

[Camp Autonomy]: The reveal of the intent of the shard held by Bavadin (i.e. Autonomy) occurred during a Shadows of Self book signing. So, many took this as a hint at a link between Trell and Autonomy given MeeLan's reference in the book to the unknown metal belonging to "other god." I myself belong to this camp.

The faith of those outside of Elendel skews largely towards Trell and their insistence on policitcal and economic freedom from Elendel makes a lot of sense. Also, Paalm's particular brand of insanity irrationally sought to free herself of Harmony's control.

Although I must admit that the dialog with an unseen character that interrupted her conversation with Wax is pretty good evidence for Camp Kelsier based on Kel's scene with Spook at the end of Secret History; however, there's nothing to say that Autonomy's agents are not also present in the Cognitive Realm at that time or that the unknown metal Connects Paalm to Autonomy in a way that allows her to speak with him or one of his agents.

[Camp Kelsier]: Many remain stuck on the idea that Harmony had to expel the excess power of the Ruin shard to balance out his two shards, since much of Preservation's power remains invested in Scardial's humans. Furthermore, they believe Kelsier was given (or otherwise obtained) the excess power from Ruin that Sazed expelled. So, according to this theory, Trell - a splinter of Ruin - is Kelsier. The fact that spikes of the unknown metal in Shadows of Self are used in the hemalurgical fashion is usually given as support for this theory, along with Keliser's presence during Sazed's ascension and history of picking up Preservation's power after Leras's death.

[Camp Odium/Something Else]: Others aren't convinced by either of the popular options and insist that there's something else going on (these folks are usually rather focused on the mysterious Red Haze in Bands of Mourning). This view commonly links Trell with Odium. However, it's just as frequent that these guys insist that we don't know what is going on and we will just have to wait and see.

They like to point out that no one is a perfect fit and that we need more details on how other shards invest themselves on other planets, how local magic systems might be affected by a foreign shard, and/or the appearance of a foreign shard's invested objects on Scadrial (i.e. why does Trell have a metal instead of something else? Would an infused sphere from SLA appear as a metal on Scadrial?).

A side note on "Rust and Ruin":Both the Camp Something Else and Camp Kelsier kids like to point out that Brandon keeps trolling us all with his hint to "pay attention to the curse "Rust and Ruin!". For that matter, so do the Camp Kelsier kids as this hint does seem to connect the rusty patches on the unknown metal to Ruin somehow.

As a camper from Camp Autonomy, I believe that the hint is an allusion to the beginnings of why hemalurgy is so important to the Cosmere. I think that the rust is the result of Autonomy's attempts to oppose Harmony and his meddling in the affairs of men. That is, the rust is Autonomy's investiture imparted through hemalurgy (which provides the connection to Ruin). Admittedly we haven't seen hemalurgy affect the metals used to spike people before, but we haven't seen it used off-world (or with foreign investiture) before either. In short, Rust = Autonomy & Ruin = Hemalurgy.

---

* White Sand is an unpublished book which is soon to be released as a graphic novel; in the past Brandon has emailed White Sand to those who request it from the contact page on his website.

White Sand is the story of Khriss and Baon. Brandon had told us that Bavadin (i.e. Autonomy) is the shard on Taldain. He is curiously off-screen throughout all of the book.

Spoilers for White Sand and the origin of Khriss

------

Baon is "Grump" from the group that visits the Purelake in Interlude I-I: Ishikk of The Way of Kings). Bavadin is also mentioned (alongside Rayse/Odium) in the epigraph on Chapter 23 of The Way of Kings, which is part of what is generally referred to as "The Letter."

Hoid is the suspected author of the Letter and the recipient is a dragon named Frost (per WoB).

Further unpublished novels spoilers

Stormlight Archive spoiler.

EDIT: Spelling error

Edited February 9, 2016 by KidWayne

[Left]

That red patch of stars is named "Taln's scar." The name "Taln" leads me to think that this abnormal astronomical anomaly (upvotes for alliteration, anyone? ) has more to do with the Heralds than it does with Trell.

There is a lot of speculation on the possibility of a mass exodus from Taldain (the planet where White Sand* takes place). Some think that all of the Heralds from The Stromlight Archive ("SLA") might actually be Taldainians. Others think that Taln's scar could be the remains of an event that destroyed Taldain. Some others think that the Shardholder on Taldain (see SLA spoilers below) may have even destroyed his own planet.

Anyway, people seem to have divided into three camps when it comes to the identity of Trell (look under the first spoiler tag, there are general Cosmere spoilers):

[Camp Autonomy]: The reveal of the intent of the shard held by Bavadin (i.e. Autonomy) occurred during a Shadows of Self book signing. So, many took this as a hint at a link between Trell and Autonomy given MeeLan's reference in the book to the unknown metal belonging to "other god." I myself belong to this camp.

The faith of those outside of Elendel skews largely towards Trell and their insistence on policitcal and economic freedom from Elendel makes a lot of sense. Also, Paalm's particular brand of insanity irrationally sought to free herself of Harmony's control.

Although I must admit that the dialog with an unseen character that interrupted her conversation with Wax is pretty good evidence for Camp Kelsier based on Kel's scene with Spook at the end of Secret History; however, there's nothing to say that Autonomy's agents are not also present in the Cognitive Realm at that time or that the unknown metal Connects Paalm to Autonomy in a way that allows her to speak with him or one of his agents.

[Camp Kelsier]: Many remain stuck on the idea that Harmony had to expel the excess power of the Ruin shard to balance out his two shards, since much of Preservation's power remains invested in Scardial's humans. Furthermore, they believe Kelsier was given (or otherwise obtained) the excess power from Ruin that Sazed expelled. So, according to this theory, Trell - a splinter of Ruin - is Kelsier. The fact that spikes of the unknown metal in Shadows of Self are used in the hemalurgical fashion is usually given as support for this theory, along with Keliser's presence during Sazed's ascension and history of picking up Preservation's power after Leras's death.

[Camp Odium/Something Else]: Others aren't convinced by either of the popular options and insist that there's something else going on (these folks are usually rather focused on the mysterious Red Haze in Bands of Mourning). This view commonly links Trell with Odium. However, it's just as frequent that these guys insist that we don't know what is going on and we will just have to wait and see.

They like to point out that no one is a perfect fit and that we need more details on how other shards invest themselves on other planets, how local magic systems might be affected by a foreign shard, and/or the appearance of a foreign shard's invested objects on Scadrial (i.e. why does Trell have a metal instead of something else? Would an infused sphere from SLA appear as a metal on Scadrial?).

A side note on "Rust and Ruin":Both the Camp Something Else and Camp Kelsier kids like to point out that Brandon keeps trolling us all with his hint to "pay attention to the curse "Rust and Ruin!". For that matter, so do the Camp Kelsier kids as this hint does seem to connect the rusty patches on the unknown metal to Ruin somehow.

As a camper from Camp Autonomy, I believe that the hint is an allusion to the beginnings of why hemalurgy is so important to the Cosmere. I think that the rust is the result of Autonomy's attempts to oppose Harmony and his meddling in the affairs of men. That is, the rust is Autonomy's investiture imparted through hemalurgy (which provides the connection to Ruin). Admittedly we haven't seen hemalurgy affect the metals used to spike people before, but we haven't seen it used off-world (or with foreign investiture) before either. In short, Rust = Autonomy & Ruin = Hemalurgy.

---

* White Sand is an unpublished book which is soon to be released as a graphic novel; in the past Brandon has emailed White Sand to those who request it from the contact page on his website.

White Sand is the story of Khriss and Baon. Brandon had told us that Bavadin (i.e. Autonomy) is the shard on Taldain. He is curiously off-screen throughout all of the book.

Spoilers for White Sand and the origin of Khriss

------

Baon is "Grump" from the group that visits the Purelake in Interlude I-I: Ishikk of The Way of Kings). Bavadin is also mentioned (alongside Rayse/Odium) in the epigraph on Chapter 23 of The Way of Kings, which is part of what is generally referred to as "The Letter."

Hoid is the suspected author of the Letter and the recipient is a dragon named Frost (per WoB).

Further unpublished novels spoilers

Stormlight Archive spoiler.

EDIT: Spelling error

You neglected to mention that some of us believe that Trell is related to Dominion and Sel.

[NovaSeeker]

The patch of red stars visible from Roshar is called "Taln's Scar" by the natives of Roshar.

 

The patch of red stars visible from Scadrial is called "The Red Rip" by the natives of Scadrial.

 

The patch of red stars visible from Threnody is called "The Starbelt" by the natives of Threnody.

 

The Red Rip and the Starbelt are confirmed to be the same stars, and are also confirmed to be visible "from other worlds as well". While it hasn't been confirmed that Taln's Scar is the same thing explicitly, I think it must be. And while the Eyes of Trell aren't linked to The Red Rip specifically, we also know that this "Trell" entity is presented to Wax by Harmony as a raze haze from space.

 

I had no idea about these theories revolving around Taladin, and that's pretty interesting. Is that all WoB? I don't want to be spoiled for the upcoming White Sands graphic novel though...

 

Anyway, I don't think a single shattered planet (as cool as that sounds) would produce red "stars" visible from several different solar systems.

[KOOZ]

Is there WoB on how Shards can manifest their powers on other Shardworlds? I.e. would any Shard meddling in Scadrial be forming metals as part of its interaction with the local magic system? (I would suspect so due to Odium's spren equivalents - he came to the system later, and local spren already existed, unless I am much mistaken?)

 

Re major Trell camps:

-if it is Kelsier - question of power should be raised; also, does that mean that the Trell religion Sazed preaches has been hijacked? More importantly, assuming the Sovereign is somehow Kelsier-related, why would Kelsier want to destroy his homeworld, when he spent most of the original trilogy running around and, ultimately, helping preserve the planet (from WoB hints and SH)?

-if it is Dominion Resurrected (could a non-Shardholder be able to do it?), then my question would be - does this really align with the Shard's Intent? After all, events leading up to the finale of BoM make sense - take over, take control, dominate, but extermination of all life on Scadrial goes a little too far - there must be someone to lord over, otherwise one cannot dominate nothing, no? (Admittedly, if the shard was picked up only recently, the Shardholder could find the intent)

-if it is Odium, it is a little surprising, because, from WoB, he is weary of Harmony and its power, and even afraid - if he is now free to act, surely in the 300+ years that passed, Harmony became more aware of his powers and the Cosmere, and a more formidable opponent? Unless Odium became stronger after the events in the Stormlight Archive, or more desperate?

-if it is Autonomy, in terms of intent, it makes a lot more sense - politics, independence, yet, again, planetary extermination (and here I assume Bavain is still holding the Shard, so no fighting its intent here) - surely if nothing exists, in absence of life, there is no one to be  independent from anyone

 

In the end, I think the main question is, who is ballsy enough to encroach into Harmony's space?

 

Is there WoB on whether we have encountered Trell and his/her real identity before?

[Fiddler]

Well I mean, with the thing red eyes said to Suit

 

 

"But you need us!" Suit said. "To rule, to manage civilization on--"

"No longer. Recent advances have made civilization here too dangerous. Allowing it to continue risks further advances we cannot control, and so we have decided to remove life on this sphere instead. Thank you for your service; it has been accepted. You will be allowed to serve in another Realm."

 

Kelsier can be ruled out I think. Trell is definetly not from Scadrial.

 

I think it's Odium. The emphasized parts of the quote above could be a hint at the theme of Mistborn Era 4.

If the civilization on Scadrial were to develop space technology, Harmony's influence would become greater in the Cosmere and he would most certainly look out further into space and thereby discover other shards, specifically Odium. By sending agents to just genocidally kill everything on Scadrial, he would force Harmony to focus on rebuilding and ignoring the larger Cosmere.

The red eyes also remind me of the voidbringers on Roshar.

 

I don't think Autonomy's intent fits with the whole genocide thing.

 

It could also be one of the unknown shards.

[PallonianFire]

 

 

does that mean that the Trell religion Sazed preaches has been hijacked?

 

The fact that the name changed from Trelagism to Trellism and seems to preach something different in Era 2 indicates that it has most definitely been hijacked.

 

 

 

Is there WoB on whether we have encountered Trell and his/her real identity before?

 

This is a tricky one. I'll have to phrase it delicately and ask at the Denver signing. There are...layers to it, though.

[NovaSeeker]

Kooz's breakdown of "Trell's" actions and known motivations is very helpful in determining this things identity.

 

While Odium is most likely the answer, my current wildly speculative theory is that "Trell" is not any shard, but is in fact the force opposed to Adonalsium  Furthermore, the Red Rip/Taln's Scar/Starbelt is another galaxy created by this "opposing force", and it is currently on a collision course with the dwarf galaxy where Cosmere novels have taken place, just like how Andromeda is on a collision course with the Milky Way in real life (we only have billions and billions of years left to impact!).

 

I think this would be a cool way to foreshadow a climactic, sci-fi conflict with an invasion from outside known space. The "mass of bright red stars" would just be an odd astrological feature that would fit in any fantasy story, but hides an astronomical feature that's a sci-fi looming threat.

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[PallonianFire]

 

 

While Odium is most likely the answer, my current wildly speculative theory is that "Trell" is not any shard, but is in fact the force opposed to Adonalsium

 

SH spoiler

Well, if Khriss is right, the force that opposed Adonalsium was the 16 who became Shards.

 

I feel like Odium is involved, in some manner, though. Just not that he's "Trell".

[KidWayne]

Three things:

[#1]

Kelsier can be ruled out I think. Trell is definetly not from Scadrial.

Thank you for this observation. I really hate the theories and the concept of Kelsier (i.e. Trell) as an embittered soul working against Sazed.

---

[#2]

I think it's Odium...
I don't think Autonomy's intent fits with the whole genocide thing.

Elantris spoilers:

There's a WoB out there that more or less confirms that something is influencing the Trell worshipers and it may be the Svrakiss:

Question: Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?
Brandon Sanderson: *long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

--Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014

---

[#3]

It could also be one of the unknown shards.

Apparently not, see the WoBs referenced posts #2 & #3 in this topic:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52298-is-trell-a-new-shard/

According to this, the metal in Bleeder from a Shard that we know. Although, I searched for this WoB pretty hard and I couldn't find it. All I found was a lot of people referencing it. So I'm starting to wonder about its authenticity.

[NovaSeeker]

Pallonianfire

 

 

We know that there was a force that opposed Adonalsium. I do not think this force was the original shardholders, and here's why:

 

There's an intruiging WoB here (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1104) that goes:

 

"tell me something interesting about the cosmere that has not been previously mentioned."

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Long ago there was once a plot to destroy Adonalsium. It failed.

 

 

There's also another WoB here (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1075) that goes:

QUESTION

"Was Adonalsium shattered intentionally, and if so, was the intention malevolent?

 

BRANDON SANDERNSON

Yes, and RAFO"

 

It's currently my theory that the Shattering of Adonalsium was intended to actually preserve his power, as keeping it separate in some way may have kept it safer from the Opposing Force. This is why the weapon created by the Opposing Force is known by Odium. But this weapon was never successfully deployed, because whatever plot there was to destroy Adonalsium failed, because it was prevented from succeeding by the Shattering.

 

It's also currently my theory that the Opposing Force is going after Harmony, because Harmony is the first instance of the Shards combining back together, and the Opposing Force's weapon is more effective at destroying Adonalsium's power when it is consolidated.

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[PallonianFire]

NovaSeeker:

 

The impression I got from Khriss was that the 16 were the opposition that Brandon mentioned, and we had just been assuming that it was a deity.

[NovaSeeker]

I'll have to read that again more carefully. May have glossed over facts to preserve my pet theory.

[PallonianFire]

I don't know why, but it's the first place my mind jumped upon reading it. And I feel like it would be a very Sandersonian thing, giving us this misdirection and dropping a casual reveal that could slip by easily.

[KidWayne]

You neglected to mention that some of us believe that Trell is related to Dominion and Sel.

Yes this WoB has me liking your interpretation, but I think that this is most likely a factor of Autonomy's affiliation with Odium.

Elantris spoilers:

Brandon more or less confirms that something is influencing the Trell worshipers and it may be the Svrakiss:

Question: Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson: *long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

--Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014

[NovaSeeker]

See, I think that people assuming the Shattering was a bad thing is the misdirection. I think the sneaky thing for Brandon to do would be to make it actually be the thing that saves Adonalsium.

 

(And I think that Miles was being influenced by this Opposing Force.)

Edited February 10, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[The Ninja Yodeler]

See, I think that people assuming the Shattering was a bad thing is the misdirection. I think the sneaky thing for Brandon to do would be to make it actually be the thing that saves Adonalsium.

 

(And I think that Miles was being influenced by this Opposing Force.)

I also had the thought that it was something Adonalsium wanted. Wasn't sure if it was my thought or if I read it in the forums one late night.

[imriel452]

Adonalsium was killed by the Weapon, so I don't think he really wanted the Shattering!

[nervousnerd]

According to this, the metal in Bleeder from a Shard that we know. Although, I searched for this WoB pretty hard and I couldn't find it. All I found was a lot of people referencing it. So I'm starting to wonder about its authenticity.

 

So if the metal is from a Shard we know, does that rule out Bavadin? We don't really know him aside from mentions that he exists in WoBs.

 

Pallonianfire

 

 

We know that there was a force that opposed Adonalsium. I do not think this force was the original shardholders, and here's why:

 

There's an intruiging WoB here (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1104) that goes:

 

There's also another WoB here (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1075) that goes:

 

It's currently my theory that the Shattering of Adonalsium was intended to actually preserve his power, as keeping it separate in some way may have kept it safer from the Opposing Force. This is why the weapon created by the Opposing Force is known by Odium. But this weapon was never successfully deployed, because whatever plot there was to destroy Adonalsium failed, because it was prevented from succeeding by the Shattering.

 

It's also currently my theory that the Opposing Force is going after Harmony, because Harmony is the first instance of the Shards combining back together, and the Opposing Force's weapon is more effective at destroying Adonalsium's power when it is consolidated.

 

Adonalsium was killed by the Weapon, so I don't think he really wanted the Shattering!

We don't really know if Adonalsium was just power of an actual being (someone holding the power). It is possible that he couldn't want anything. I do like the idea of them doing it to preserve the power but I'm not sure if I believe it.

[Pathfinder]

 

So if the metal is from a Shard we know, does that rule out Bavadin? We don't really know him aside from mentions that he exists in WoBs.

 

 

We don't really know if Adonalsium was just power of an actual being (someone holding the power). It is possible that he couldn't want anything. I do like the idea of them doing it to preserve the power but I'm not sure if I believe it.

Wasn't it confirmed that Adonalsium is actually a he as in a being?

[nervousnerd]

Technically a WOB called it a he but I'm not sure of that as difinitive proof. Unless there was another more direct question.