[BoM Spoiler] Irich

[jmass12]

Question - is Irich a Scadrial native? Does this passage refer to a form of Investiture or the literal definition?

"Neither could grant him additional breaths of life."

[baby]

Who would Irich be? My memory fails to tell me.

[Asperity]

Who would Irich be? My memory fails to tell me.

The older man who was affiliated with the Set at the crashed airship. The one who walked with a cane.

[Stormgate]

This seems like the type of thing Sanderson puts in there to send us going after red herrings. As far as I know, we haven't had the POV of a worldhopper after they were a worldhopper.

[GoddessIMHO]

Well, whatever Irich is, it seems he can't have survived the story. He was pretty nearly dead as it was. The only thing that still bothers me about him is why was he thrown from the train and how did he survive that? At least I think I remember that.

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Well, whatever Irich is, it seems he can't have survived the story. He was pretty nearly dead as it was. The only thing that still bothers me about him is why was he thrown from the train and how did he survive that? At least I think I remember that.

Yep, that would be him. Maybe a coinshot below the tracks, or a lurcher on the train. Or maybe one of the medallions. Maybe a gold metalmind like what's her face had, before her face was blown off. That's probably the likeliest explanation.

[Zizoz]

This seems like the type of thing Sanderson puts in there to send us going after red herrings. As far as I know, we haven't had the POV of a worldhopper after they were a worldhopper.

Spoilers for WoR/Warbreaker:

We had Vasher/Zahel's POV in WoR.

 

I think Irich is Scadrian, though. Vasher goes down to only his divine Breath at the beginning of Warbreaker, and it is described thusly:

Being void of Breath did change him. Colors didn’t seem as bright. He couldn’t feel the bustling people moving about in the city above, a connection he normally took for granted. It was the awareness all men had for others—that thing which whispered a warning, in the drowsiness of sleep, when someone entered the room. In Vasher, that sense had been magnified fifty times.

And now it was gone. Sucked into the cloak and the straw person, giving them power.

No paralysis.

Also, the explanation of his illness includes "His physician said that one day, he simply wouldn't have the strength to breathe." That explains why he refers to "breaths" of life.

[Goatborn]

I would love to know how he would go with a Nicrosil/Gold disc. Is a chronic disease reversible at all? Has it become too much of what he perceives himself to be for Bloodmaking to fix it?

 

I think he's a Scadrial native, otherwise I think there would have been far more breakthroughs in the researching of the ship. (And possibly better treatment of the S.Scadrians - I feel like Worldhoppers would naturally be better communicators just based on their experiences)

[The Ninja Yodeler]

I would love to know how he would go with a Nicrosil/Gold disc. Is a chronic disease reversible at all? Has it become too much of what he perceives himself to be for Bloodmaking to fix it?

 

I think he's a Scadrial native, otherwise I think there would have been far more breakthroughs in the researching of the ship. (And possibly better treatment of the S.Scadrians - I feel like Worldhoppers would naturally be better communicators just based on their experiences)

I don't see how anyone could see something attacking them as being part of them, even if it is his own cells doing the attacking. I know I don't see my hernias as being part of my identity, and those ain't even killing me.

[Goatborn]

I don't see how anyone could see something attacking them as being part of them, even if it is his own cells doing the attacking. I know I don't see my hernias as being part of my identity, and those ain't even killing me.

 

In Stormlight, Kaladin's scars are something that he rejects but he cannot heal. While we see another Radiant regrow a limb after swearing an oath, so healing in the Cosmere is variable from person to person.

 

If you felt like you deserved those hernias because you did something terrible in your past, it might change things. Or one of the hernias is filled with the glowy fruit worms from Sixth's planet!

[CthulhuSpren]

 

 

Or maybe one of the medallions. Maybe a gold metalmind like what's her face had, before her face was blown off. That's probably the likeliest explanation

I always assumed she got Feruchemical gold hemalurgically- but then again, it never said what her original feruchemical power was

[Pathfinder]

It is a difficult line to find between which gets healed and which does not. For example:

 

Renarin had glasses his entire life. That I would argue would very much make up part of his identity. I grew up with a father that always wore glasses. Seeing him without them felt weird, and like he was almost a different person. Yet Renarin's eyes healed where he did not need them anymore. Yet Kal's brands remain.

[Rasarr]

It is a difficult line to find between which gets healed and which does not. For example:

 

Renarin had glasses his entire life. That I would argue would very much make up part of his identity. I grew up with a father that always wore glasses. Seeing him without them felt weird, and like he was almost a different person. Yet Renarin's eyes healed where he did not need them anymore. Yet Kal's brands remain.

 

My guess would be that it's not just based on what you think you are, but also on what you think you should be (there is a way to phrase this better and without some bad implications, but I do not know it). To go with your examples, 

after both gaining a Blade and Plate and becoming a Radiant, Renarin believes he should be a "strong man" and a warrior like Alethi ideal teaches him he should be - therefore, as a warrior should not wear glasses, Renarin "removes" his need for them. Kaladin, on the other hand, still isn't entirely past his slavery time and has some problems functioning "properly" (again, there is a way to phrase this better...), therefore his brands remain, as he's not entirely convinced he "should" be a Radiant just yet (you see why I worried about using word "should" here?).

[Pathfinder]

My guess would be that it's not just based on what you think you are, but also on what you think you should be (there is a way to phrase this better and without some bad implications, but I do not know it). To go with your examples, 

after both gaining a Blade and Plate and becoming a Radiant, Renarin believes he should be a "strong man" and a warrior like Alethi ideal teaches him he should be - therefore, as a warrior should not wear glasses, Renarin "removes" his need for them. Kaladin, on the other hand, still isn't entirely past his slavery time and has some problems functioning "properly" (again, there is a way to phrase this better...), therefore his brands remain, as he's not entirely convinced he "should" be a Radiant just yet (you see why I worried about using word "should" here?).

Although I like the sound of this theory, I do not fully buy it. It opens up a lot of confusing situations, and problems. But I respect your belief in it, and hope you are right. 

[MagpieMaydin]

Yeah I always wondered, I mean the Set was all up on Hemalurgic knowledge. When he said he was waiting on a miracle, was he waiting on an unknown solution, or was he waiting for an unlikely but known one, such as teh Set granting him gold feruchemy as a reward for service?

[Pathfinder]

Yeah I always wondered, I mean the Set was all up on Hemalurgic knowledge. When he said he was waiting on a miracle, was he waiting on an unknown solution, or was he waiting for an unlikely but known one, such as teh Set granting him gold feruchemy as a reward for service?

That's how I took it. That if he performed well, the Set would either give him gold feruchemy, or find out how the medallions work, to instead of warmth, or connection, give him healing in a less invasive way. 

[Numuhuku]

Yeah I always wondered, I mean the Set was all up on Hemalurgic knowledge. When he said he was waiting on a miracle, was he waiting on an unknown solution, or was he waiting for an unlikely but known one, such as teh Set granting him gold feruchemy as a reward for service?

I assumed he was interested in getting his hands on the Bands of Mourning, so he could tap the incredible deposits of compounded healing in them.

 

Him being made a hemulurgical blood maker wouldn't really help considering his terminal degenerative illness. Storing up enough health to cure himself of his condition would probably get him killed given his weak state. Zero sum game and all that. It's the same reason why a normal Feuruchemist couldn't make themselves immortal using Atium metal minds. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by Numuhuku

[emailanimal]

Although I like the sound of this theory, I do not fully buy it. It opens up a lot of confusing situations, and problems. But I respect your belief in it, and hope you are right. 

 

  The key is to see that Renarin hates being weak of sight. He *wants* to see better. Whether poor vision is part of his Identity is not as relevant as his Intent - he wants change.  Kaladin does not have an Intent to change his brands, because, as of WoR we still see him brood about darkeyes and lighteyes. He feels enslaved by the system.  I predict that at some point down the road, he goes through an epiphany, and his slave brand disappears.

[emailanimal]

Going back to OP's question: Irich appears to be a native Scadrian to me. We have a viewpoint from him in which he grumbles about things, but one of the things that appears clear is that he is a scientist and had a productive career prior to being approached by the Set. He is a hired gun precisely because he had that career.  There might be theories about him worldhopping in his youth, but I strongly doubt that.

[Pathfinder]

I assumed he was interested in getting his hands on the Bands of Mourning, so he could tap the incredible deposits of compounded healing in them.

 

Him being made a hemulurgical blood maker wouldn't really help considering his terminal degenerative illness. Storing up enough health to cure himself of his condition would probably get him killed given his weak state. Zero sum game and all that. It's the same reason why a normal Feuruchemist couldn't make themselves immortal using Atium metal minds. 

Except for that they have unkeyed gold minds that work on any gold feruchemist. So just make him a hemalurgic feruchemist, and give him a goldmind already full of health and then voila! Happy and Healthy!

 

  The key is to see that Renarin hates being weak of sight. He *wants* to see better. Whether poor vision is part of his Identity is not as relevant as his Intent - he wants change.  Kaladin does not have an Intent to change his brands, because, as of WoR we still see him brood about darkeyes and lighteyes. He feels enslaved by the system.  I predict that at some point down the road, he goes through an epiphany, and his slave brand disappears.

yeah but my issue with this, is how do you judge "wanting" something? If I really really really want an extra arm badly, and cut myself at the place I really really want the arm, would it grow? I think that was brought up in another thread. How much can I convince myself of something, that my body will think it is real? That is why I am still of the mind that it is tied to your core identity. Something that is increadibly hard to alter, and only through massive trauma would it change. For instance when I was younger I did not need glasses. It took till I think 7th grade in elementary school before my vision had worsened enough to be noticeable and discovered I need glasses. so my core identity started out with glasses, and suddenly finding out i needed them did not feel overly traumatic. So the stormlight healing would bring me back to that. But that is just my own interpretation.

[Senor Feesh]

Except for that they have unkeyed gold minds that work on any gold feruchemist. So just make him a hemalurgic feruchemist, and give him a goldmind already full of health and then voila! Happy and Healthy!

 

yeah but my issue with this, is how do you judge "wanting" something? If I really really really want an extra arm badly, and cut myself at the place I really really want the arm, would it grow? I think that was brought up in another thread. How much can I convince myself of something, that my body will think it is real? That is why I am still of the mind that it is tied to your core identity. Something that is increadibly hard to alter, and only through massive trauma would it change. For instance when I was younger I did not need glasses. It took till I think 7th grade in elementary school before my vision had worsened enough to be noticeable and discovered I need glasses. so my core identity started out with glasses, and suddenly finding out i needed them did not feel overly traumatic. So the stormlight healing would bring me back to that. But that is just my own interpretation.

 

 

Continuing with the Stormlight spoilers.

 

 

I always understood Healing to be more to do with self-image. Sazed would have liked to be whole again, I'm sure, and Kaladin WANTS to be free of his brands, but at this point in their stories they still have a deep-seated image of themselves as being that way. Lopen, on the other hand, apparently never internalised the loss of his arm in the same way.

[Rasarr]

Continuing with the Stormlight spoilers.

 

 

I always understood Healing to be more to do with self-image. Sazed would have liked to be whole again, I'm sure, and Kaladin WANTS to be free of his brands, but at this point in their stories they still have a deep-seated image of themselves as being that way. Lopen, on the other hand, apparently never internalised the loss of his arm in the same way.

To carry on with this lovely thread derail:

 

While I'd generally agree that it's somehow tied to self-image, that still doesn't really explain Renarin, who clearly has been wearing glasses in a long time and seems to have more a "weaker brother" image of himself. Personally, I think emailanimal is on the right track in that a personal "Intent" (do we still call it Intent if it's not of Shard?) plays some part into it, though I'd say a personal perception of who they feel they "should" and "shouldn't" be plays a part - sorry if I'm about to reiterate what I said later, but I think I found a better way to put it. Kal doesn't feel like he's a free man yet, so his brands don't disappear. Lopen feels like a fully able person, so his arm regrows to accomodate for that feeling. Renarin feels that a Knight Radiant shouldn't be shortsighted, so his need for glasses is gone.

[Pathfinder]

To carry on with this lovely thread derail:

 

While I'd generally agree that it's somehow tied to self-image, that still doesn't really explain Renarin, who clearly has been wearing glasses in a long time and seems to have more a "weaker brother" image of himself. Personally, I think emailanimal is on the right track in that a personal "Intent" (do we still call it Intent if it's not of Shard?) plays some part into it, though I'd say a personal perception of who they feel they "should" and "shouldn't" be plays a part - sorry if I'm about to reiterate what I said later, but I think I found a better way to put it. Kal doesn't feel like he's a free man yet, so his brands don't disappear. Lopen feels like a fully able person, so his arm regrows to accomodate for that feeling. Renarin feels that a Knight Radiant shouldn't be shortsighted, so his need for glasses is gone.

In my opinion I did explain Renarin. We don't know how long he has had glasses. I gave the example of myself. I have worn glasses (well contacts now, but that is besides the point), almost all my life, but there was still a time that I did not. I had about what, 11 to 12 years of life without glasses? And my vision worsened gradually. Baring an accident that hurt his vision, or complication of birth, his poor vision is something that develops slowly. not since birth. I have friends who are partially blind since birth, and that does not sound like Renarin. But as I say this, please do not take this as me intending to shut down your theory. I do not have definitive proof otherwise. I am just saying why it does not feel like it fits for me personally.

[The Invested Beard]

So with Irich I had the feeling that he was being used as a sort of health-battery for the creation and maintenance of the super full gold metal mind or something similar. Someone figured out how to sap someone' health "remotely" either through hemalurgy or some other means and he is the source. Not sure why, maybe some sort of punishment or volunteering for the progress of metallic arts science. I mean he seems pretty aware of his condition and what it means.

[Kadrok]

So with Irich I had the feeling that he was being used as a sort of health-battery for the creation and maintenance of the super full gold metal mind or something similar. Someone figured out how to sap someone' health "remotely" either through hemalurgy or some other means and he is the source. Not sure why, maybe some sort of punishment or volunteering for the progress of metallic arts science. I mean he seems pretty aware of his condition and what it means.

I think that would kill him, honestly. Unless you're suggesting he was so weak because they were draining him, in which case why would he be wishing for a miracle and not for the Set to stop draining him?

 

Regarding getting others to do the storing, my impression was that the Set had used Hemalurgy to produce people with both Aluminum Feruchemy and Gold Feruchemy (catch a Bloodmaker, grant them Aluminum Feruchemy; catch a Trueself, grant them Gold Feruchemy; grant someone both Gold and Aluminum) and had them just storing unkeyed Gold. Basically a Feruchemical Sweatshop. And the great (read: terrible) thing about Hemalurgy is that if the Sweatshop Feruchemists refuse to obey, you can just kill them and replace them with more accommodating slaves.