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[Bands Spoilers] A hint at Nalthis in the distant past?


AndrewStirlingMacDonald

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I doubt it would take a bazillion. Vasher's pants weren't especially human-shaped, and the tassels at the bottom were very handy. Would a mistcloak take more Breaths to Awaken than a human-shaped cloak? Sure. But it's still made out of once-living fibers, and wouldn't be too difficult. And all those extra tassels would be really useful with a Protect Me Command.

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That indeed seems plausible. I've never really understood why Mistborn wore those tasseled cloaks. There were some explanations in first Mistborn book, but they didn't really convince me and for me, the official reason for mistcloaks was "because they're cool".  Now I think that they might be indeed inspired by an Awakener.

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It could be a hint, but I still don't buy this similarity between the cloaks. Vasher's is human shaped. Mistcloaks are just regular cloaks cut up to make long strips so they flow in the air. As for Marasi's wording, it does not seem odd to me at all. It's like "Open Sesame", or "Speak friend, and enter". Having such vocal passwords in their lore is highly likely, so the only reason this raises any eyebrows at all is the use of the word "command". I'm not buying it, personally.

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Why would mistcloak make sense for an awakener? It would cost a bazilion breaths to awaken something like that as compared to a cloak shaped somewhat like a person like Vashers cloak.

Its the other way round. The idea is that Mistborn got the cloak idea from Awakeners. They just didnt know what the humannshape was for, or the original mistcloak creator just really loved tassels. I'm not sure how likely it is,(probably not likely) but its still a cool thought.

And I think Blaze also made a good point. A command phrase is different than a magical spell. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Nalthis or Awakening. Would still be a fun little connection that has basically no ramifications to the larger story though.

Edited by The Ninja Yodeler
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Have an upvote, AndrewStirlingMacDonald, this is a good idea. Reminds me of the WoB we had a while back (can't link to it, theoryland doesn't let me in) that Nightblood is an Awakeners' attempt at making a Shardblade. If the Scholars' been to Roshar, they might've just as well been to Scadrial.

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Bazillion is obviously an intended exxageration ;).

 

But point is, thin stripes = easily ripped/cut apart, combined with more breaths, combined with problems recovering breaths from any part of the cloak thats ripped off... dont seem useful.

 

In addition, awakening on Nalthis is a young art. There have been mistborn around longer, and thus, propably(no evidence, but scadrial is conservative, unlikely it have changed) there was mistcloaks around since almost a thousand years before Kelsier.

 

That should be way before Awakening spread on Nalthis.

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Oh I'm not saying that an awakener would grab a Mistcloak and be like "hey! This is a super-useful garment!" (unless they have a ton of breaths stored). I'm positing that an Awakener worldhopper visited Scadrial back in the day and Scadrians were like "oh snap! I'm totally going to wear something similar to that super-cool Scholar person!"

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ya, and the other point I made is that mistborns are older then awakeners;).

 

So when the awakener came around, they would be wearing them already ;).

 

Anyway, the mist in mistborn isnt regular mist. so when they talk of it makign them harder to see...

 

In really heavy mist, if a big truck or a train passes quickly, you can see it swirl, like there are shapes, being in it almost. Picture that, but make the mist several times heavier then what we see here, and also couple it with wind(mist here pretty much disaperes if its windy, not so in the final empire)

 

SO you get random shapes, swirls. thats what they cloak is to copy. A manshaped thing jumping through the mist can be made out. A swirls of odd length of cloaks... that looks just like the regular swirls of mists, and while you would see it, it is much harder to process that is is something more then just swirling mist.

Edited by dyring
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Is there a WoB that says that Mistborn are older than Awakeners?

​Here's what we know (as best as I can recall):

​1 - The Final Empire is set "before" Warbreaker, but we don't know how much before.

2 - Although Preservation and Ruin settled on Scadrial, and Feruchemy was around during Rashek's ascension, "Mistborn," at least the way we think of them now, didn't come about until after Rashek's ascension. He gave some of his trusted companions Lerasium and got the nobility started off with a bang.

3 - 300 years before the events of Warbreaker, Vasher, already Returned, travelled to Roshar, saw a Shardblade, and was all like "zomg I'm totally gonna do that." And then he did it.

 

So here's the thing - we know so very little about Vasher/Zahel. We have no idea how long he was alive when we see him in Warbreaker. He doesn't age, and he doesn't, as a rule, talk about his past. When we see him in Warbreaker he could've already been Returned for ten thousand years. And we know even less [read:literally nothing except the fact that he was born on Nalthis] about his pre-Returned persona.

 

I feel like unless there is a WoB saying explicitly that Mistborns predate Awakeners, there's not just not enough information about the chronology to make that call ourselves.

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Back when it looked like Mistborn Bitthright was going to be a thing, I'm fairly certain that one of the things planned on being included was the origin story of Mistcloaks. While it's not canon obviously, I still think that that points the origin date of Mistcloaks on Scadrial as being early/mid Final Empire era. I'm not certain exactly of the chronology, but I think that it would contradict one of the Nalthian Scholars bringing the cloak over through world hopping.

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Is there a WoB that says that Mistborn are older than Awakeners?

​Here's what we know (as best as I can recall):

​1 - The Final Empire is set "before" Warbreaker, but we don't know how much before.

2 - Although Preservation and Ruin settled on Scadrial, and Feruchemy was around during Rashek's ascension, "Mistborn," at least the way we think of them now, didn't come about until after Rashek's ascension. He gave some of his trusted companions Lerasium and got the nobility started off with a bang.

3 - 300 years before the events of Warbreaker, Vasher, already Returned, travelled to Roshar, saw a Shardblade, and was all like "zomg I'm totally gonna do that." And then he did it.

 

So here's the thing - we know so very little about Vasher/Zahel. We have no idea how long he was alive when we see him in Warbreaker. He doesn't age, and he doesn't, as a rule, talk about his past. When we see him in Warbreaker he could've already been Returned for ten thousand years. And we know even less [read:literally nothing except the fact that he was born on Nalthis] about his pre-Returned persona.

 

I feel like unless there is a WoB saying explicitly that Mistborns predate Awakeners, there's not just not enough information about the chronology to make that call ourselves.

 

 

Prior to the Wax and Wayne series and Stormlight, when Sanderson would release a book, it was in chronological order, so Warbreaker was released after the original mistborn trilogy. There is also this nifty site for chronological order:

 

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Chronology

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This whole thing makes me wonder about the nature of the potential rivalry between Nalthis (Awakeners) and...

Very minor White Sand spoilers:

Taldain (Darksiders). This theory kinds of opens up the idea that the Trellagists from the original trilogy were Darksiders from Taldain who had a grudge of some sort with Nalthis. Could there have been a competition for the hearts and minds of the newly-created Scadrians in the early days of humanity on Scadrial in which the Awakeners and the Darksiders were relevant competitors? If so what would be the point?

Were the Awakeners seeking out a new source of Breath? We don't know enough about the Darksiders to guess at their possible motives, do we?

EDIT: Added spoiler tag

Edited by KidWayne
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Interesting but I wouldn't take Marasi's phrasing as a evidence unless Brandon is dropping meta hints through his character's which aren't even aware or have hints of other worlds.

 

She doesn't know anything about breathes so why would her saying that mean anything other then her referring to magical objects activated by incantations or words?

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Because her words can speak to a diffuse cultural standard descended from actual knowledge of Awakening.

 

As in, there was once one or more Awakeners on Scadrial, who may have been pretty famous or infamous. Enough that people knew that their "magic" involved the speaking of Commands.

 

Then the Awakeners left or died or whatever. Over time the stories of what they could do became legends. Over time those legends became diffuse cultural ideas about what magic was like "in fairy tales", ala "speaking command phrases".

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I'm not really on board with this. It's an interesting theory, but I feel like the differences between mistcloaks and Vasher's cloak are greater than you make them out to be. The mistcloaks are stylized after the mists, which has always made sense to me. And in use the two cloaks are *nothing* alike. The numerous mistcloak tassels swirl around mistborn as part of their mystique, flitting about in different directions. While Vasher's cloak would appear mostly normal much of the time (only 4 large pieces, not numerous tassels), and in use the cloak would pretty much disappear, attached to the arms and legs of the awakener, not swirling around everywhere.

 

The two bits of evidence presented are definitely not selling me on the theory. The idea of command phrases is a pretty big staple of all things mystical.

 

 

Because her words can speak to a diffuse cultural standard descended from actual knowledge of Awakening.

 

As in, there was once one or more Awakeners on Scadrial, who may have been pretty famous or infamous. Enough that people knew that their "magic" involved the speaking of Commands.

 

Then the Awakeners left or died or whatever. Over time the stories of what they could do became legends. Over time those legends became diffuse cultural ideas about what magic was like "in fairy tales", ala "speaking command phrases".

 

It makes sense if you want it to, but it's just a bit too much reaching for me. Even more so taking the centuries that took place under the Lord Ruler into account.

Edited by rabidhexley
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