Mistborns vs Sand Mages

[Navy Seon]

Who would win? A mistborn without atium, or a sand mage with only one gourd of sand?

[ChickenPlague]

Please don't discuss unpublished works.  

[Chaos]

I've moved this topic to this hidden board, so this can be discussed now.

[The Invested Beard]

I don't care who would win, I'm just happy to be here.

[Pathfinder]

I would say mistborn as they still have pewter while from what I recall ( i will need to do a re-read), sandmages still are physically at least "human"(meaning no accelerated healing/speed/reflexes). 

[calamity]

Really come on. sand mages all the way. Especially if kenton. Their sand moves faster then the eye. Its complete and unhindered telekinesis. Imagine gaara vs vin.

[Cold Fusion]

A sandmaster with only a gourd of sand would probably get whooped by a full mistborn, especially in a city setting like the final empire.  In the desert though, a skilled sandmaster like kenton could seriously pound the mistborn.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Cold Fusion

[Master Elodin]

It depends on whether or not it's Kenton. Kenton beats Mistborn any day, and with enough sand he could beat non-shard Vin. Also, it seems unfair that the Mistborn have unlimited metal and the sandmages only have one gourd of sand. After all, sand is their magic source so you're basically limiting the Investiture usage of the sandmages but not doing the same to the Mistborn.

[calamity]

Exactly. But even so, when i picture gourd i see gaara size (body size). Maybe others think more like water bottle size. Either way, sand would be faster than any human, even pewter enhanced, to be capable of dodging. Only steel/iron would be of any use, but still to slow and uncontrollable. 

[Wubdor]

A mistborn with atium would play with a sand master, to be honest. Sure, the sand might be so fast you can't dodge quickly enough (though it isn't faster than the eye can see as far as I can remember), but with atium you don't have to. You just dodge pre-emptively. One dodge and one well-aimed steelpush might just be enough to kill a sand master. The only problem is, what are you going to push off of in the desert in order to move around quickly enough? How far would coins sink into the sand to still be reachable with allomancy?

Edited April 15, 2016 by Wubdor

[Yata]

To be honest, I never though at Sand Mastery as powerful as Allomancy...problably I simply didn't consider the thing.

 

Anyway in the end I have to give the victory to the Mistborn.

 

A more balanced fight will be something like Misting VS Standard SandMaster or Mistborn VS a Mastrel.

[calamity]

Obviously we are talking about a full mastrell here. Fully trained mastrell with one full gourd of sand vs a fully trained mistborn without atium. Or to make the fight more even, with unlimited sand without slatrifying.

Edited April 15, 2016 by calamity

[Yata]

Obviously we are talking about a full mastrell here. Fully trained mastrell with one full gourd of sand vs a fully trained mistborn without atium. Or to make the fight more even, with unlimited sand without slatrifying.

I missed that part, sorry

 

In the end they are both a quite hack of their respective magic systems.

 

The problem is about their competence: a Sand Master is quite a Glass Cannon, He may do a lot of damage but his whole power is very fragile and the user also. While a Mistborn also if is less damage-oriented may count on a versatile array of strategies both direct and indirect.

 

In the end the Sand master have a chance only if they didn't know how their opponent's magic system works.

[calamity]

You are right to a point. But it of course depends on the main character or authors choice. 

Vin vs Kenton I think Kenton would win if neither knew each others powers. If they did, vin would have the advantage, but I still think would lose even with atium. It doesnt matter if you can see a couple of seconds into the future when its not possible to move fast enough to avoid Kentons sand speed which we already established is extremely fast, faster than the eye. In a prolonged fight Vin would have a chance with atium, but otherwise I dont see the contest. Especially since we know Atium has its weaknesses. A lord ruler on the other hand would probably win with both feruchemy and allomancy, since he has enhanced speed as well as many others things. In fact, a prepared feruchemist would probably beat Kenton. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by calamity

[Yata]

Well I have some doubt about.

 

Blood and other liquid "destroys" Sand... therefore if Vin manage to survive to a single assoult with a little cut (and flaring pewter his high probably) she destroys the opponent weapon (if she know this weakness the fight is over before starting).

Then a Mistborn may use emotional Allomancy to lowering the concentration of a Sand Mage on his Sand

Without thinking about the "trap" an Allomancer may set with Steel/Iron, a Sand Master that keeps his mind on the allomancer may be killed by a piece on his back pulled by the allomancer himself.

[calamity]

The problem is surviving. And even if she did, that alone would not show the sands weakness. She would not think right away that liquid destroys sand powers. Maybe after a while. But even so, emotional allomancy is very unreliable as we dont see Vin using it against hazekillers. Yes it would be very easy for a mistborn to trick him with metal pulling, but it would likely be over by then. Why would a fast speed  telekinetic shot miss its target? A steel pushing, yes, but a Sand mage missing? DO you ever see in White Sand a time Where a sand Mage missed something or someone dodged the sand blast, nooooo.!

[Yata]

In White Sand nobody has an improved reflex (as pewter) and of course when I talk about Vin i meant a Mistborn... we don't know how much mental messing (Emotional Allomancy) may be a problem to a Sand Master but I imagine that a couple of Duralluminium-powered burst of Emotions may create an opening for a well aimed coin.

 

PS: Do We know how hard may become a Sandmaster's Sand (using it as Shield)?

[calamity]

yes. Its used to block swords and arrows. Although it was never tested against the darkside guns. 

Duralumin could be a problem as you mentioned but remember that a mistborn wouldnt use it straight out. They would wait until they had no other options. Since the Mistborn has no reserve after. By that time it would be too late. Yes A mistborn could win, But I really think that if they meet for the first time, the mastrell would win. 

However, bringing it up, would a coin pushed against the shield push the shield away? I dont know how much the shield would weigh. Although sand does weigh a lot.

[Yata]

yes. Its used to block swords and arrows. Although it was never tested against the darkside guns. 

Duralumin could be a problem as you mentioned but remember that a mistborn wouldnt use it straight out. They would wait until they had no other options. Since the Mistborn has no reserve after. By that time it would be too late. Yes A mistborn could win, But I really think that if they meet for the first time, the mastrell would win. 

However, bringing it up, would a coin pushed against the shield push the shield away? I dont know how much the shield would weigh. Although sand does weigh a lot.

I really don't know I imagine that if he manage to block the Shot He would resist also to be moved (after all it's always some force applied in a point).

In this way the Mistborn will be pushed behind...maybe it's a good way to counter and dodge the Sand (using pewter+Iron/steel to improve speed).

 

But in the end I find unlikely that the Sand (unless you use a ton of it) may block completely a bullet

Edited April 15, 2016 by Yata

[Pathfinder]

So few things:

 

First: regarding sand speed. It is in comparison to as mentioned arrows, or zinkall (pressurized darts), or other sand mastrells. I can say I can run faster than the fastest track star, but I still ain't going to beat a speeding car. So to assume sand moves faster than the eye, is exactly that. An assumption. We do not have an actual measurement for the speed of sand. (i did a search on sand and speed, and those are the only comparisons that came up)

 

Second: Yes sand can block some weapons and arrows, but again we do not have an accurate measurement of how much it can actually block. We are not talking Gaara's Ultimate Defense here. 

 

Third: The Sand Mastrel dehydrates while using his ability so gets weaker as time goes on. The mistborn is burning pewter so maintains full strength, endurance, speed, and resistance steadily till the last flake is gone

 

Fourth: I assume a mistborn gets a vial of metals like a sandmage gets a gourd of sand. From what we have seen in their use, the vial of metals lasts a lot longer than sand does. 

 

Fifth: If we are assuming a gourd of sand like Gaara's, unless the sand mage also trains in taijutsu, he or she is not going to have the strength to lift the gourd and still avoid the mistborn's attacks

 

In the end as I said, the sand mage does not have any physical personal enhancements. He or she is just a vunerable "human", while a msitborn has all the bonuses of pewter on top of his or her other powers. I still say it goes to the mistborn. And that is, as the OP said, without atium

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata]

Pathfinder, it's quite the same thing what I trying to say.

But at least Calamity seems to think that a Sand Master may defeat his enemy before every of his defences crumble.

 

In both of our scenarios, the fight didn't last enough from a sand master to lose too much water

Edited April 15, 2016 by Yata

[calamity]

Exactly. I said in a prolonged fight a mistborn has the upper hand. But straight out duel style, the Mastrell can eliminate the mistborn before the mistborn has time to use his tricks. And while all of the points pathfinder said were mostly true, the sand is fast enough to kill the mistborn straight off. 

 

"Kenton’s little ribbon could cross the length of the Pit ""in the blink of an eye""!!!.  It turned and doubled-back on itself neatly.  Kenton wove it through the air, slicing through entire groups of ribbons in a single strike."

 

It was quick enough to slice through 25 ribbons in seconds.

Edited April 15, 2016 by calamity

[Pathfinder]

Exactly. I said in a prolonged fight a mistborn has the upper hand. But straight out duel style, the Mastrell can eliminate the mistborn before the mistborn has time to use his tricks. And while all of the points pathfinder said were mostly true, the sand is fast enough to kill the mistborn straight off. 

 

"Kenton’s little ribbon could cross the length of the Pit ""in the blink of an eye""!!!.  It turned and doubled-back on itself neatly.  Kenton wove it through the air, slicing through entire groups of ribbons in a single strike."

 

It was quick enough to slice through 25 ribbons in seconds.

And compare that to firing a bullet. 

 

edit: also if you recall, in that scene, both mastrells were standing still facing each other. Kenton or whoever, would need the use of other sand ribbons to move themselves to dodge around to avoid the mistborn's attacks, further dehydrating them faster. 

 

edit 2: that scene was also in a room covered in sand. The streams would be originating from the sand mastrell/kenton's gourd. Unless he intends to break it open and scatter it all over, there is a limit to the directions it can come from. Also as I type this, considering that crossing the streams cancels the investiture in the sand, what prevents Vin or mistborn from reaching out as they dodge, to touch it and burn chromium?

 

edit3: also forgot to count in bendalloy. And further, the OP stated a mistborn without atium, and a sandmage. Never mentioned Vin nor Kenton. So if you are going to bring up Kenton, then he starts with only 1 sand stream, or it is generic sand master, but has multiple weaker streams. Pick one. Don't get both.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder

[calamity]

Thats only if they know, and the sand is still too fast! Even if slightly slower than a bullet, thats way faster than an arrow. Either way, a telekinetic arrow would be devastating to a mistborn if it wasnt metal. The only reason they dont die is because they can push them away, which they cant do to sand. In short, when  the fight starts, the mistborn wont be able to dogde the arrow or even have time to make a counter attack. Even if they do get one attack off, the sand mage, who blocks arrows could easily block the attack and counter with the fatal unavoidable sand stream. 

 

Plus Vin did not have that ability.

Edited April 15, 2016 by calamity

[Pathfinder]

Thats only if they know, and the sand is still too fast! Even if slightly slower than a bullet, thats way faster than an arrow. Either way, a telekinetic arrow would be devastating to a mistborn if it wasnt metal. The only reason they dont die is because they can push them away, which they cant do to sand. In short, when  the fight starts, the mistborn wont be able to dogde the arrow or even have time to make a counter attack. Even if they do get one attack off, the sand mage, who blocks arrows could easily block the attack and counter with the fatal unavoidable sand stream. 

But a coin shot by a mistborn is like a bullet.........It can penetrate a target standing 5ft away which shows the amount of force that goes into the push, and has punched through armor/shattered wooden shields. That's why I said to compare "in a blink of an eye" to a bullet. Also the entire steam of sand is visible. A mistborn's push is not. Yet again regarding the speed, also keep in mind that was due to Kenton focusing solely on one stream his entire life. As per the OP you get a standard mastrell. So the sand mage has multiple streams but are weaker and slower than Kenton's. Or you get Kenton's one sand stream. There have been plenty of times a mistborn have dodged obsidian tipped arrows. I will be happy to provide the book and page reference if you do not believe me. An arrow has significantly less force than a bullet. It is a gross assumption to assume because it can block an arrow it could also block a bullet. 

 

edit: here is a comparison between a bullet an an arrow

 

The faster an arrow travels, the flatter the flight trajectory and less deviation from wind. Recurve bow arrows can travel up to 225 feet per second (fps) or 150mphwhile compound bow arrows can travel up to 300fps (200mph).

 

The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second (around 1,700 mph). If you reacted to the sound of the gun going off and required 0.20 seconds (twice that of the fastest Olympic sprinters) to react, then you would need to be at least 500 feet away to successfully dodge a bullet.

 

so a bullet travels roughly 8 and a half times faster than an arrow

Edited April 15, 2016 by Pathfinder