[Bands Spoilers] Nicrosil?

[DeadFencer]

Sorry if it's obvious, but I couldn't figure this out. Nicrosil minds store Investiture, which lets one use Metallic Arts. How? Does the storer lose their ability to use the power? And since there's only ferrings now, episode t they hair store the ability to use nicrosilminds? I'm quite confused, and it doesn't help that the MAG has the stored investiture as a generic power source, not a way to use power.


EDIT: Shoot I didn't know about the need to title it bands of morning spoilers!

Edited February 1, 2016 by Moogle

[Moogle]

Shoot I didn't know about the need to title it bands of morning spoilers!

 

Not a problem. Fixed the title up and made it more vague.

 

---

 

More on topic:

 

The MAG is not canon. I recommend ignoring how it does nicrosil, because it's not based on the books.

 

It seems that Feruchemical nicrosil temporarily makes you weaker if you store (or stronger if you tap) from a nicrosilmind at Allomancy/Feruchemy.

 

We don't know what strength in Feruchemy does, though at least one WoB can be interpreted to mean that stronger Feruchemists can store more of a trait in a metalmind. Not that you'd want to in most cases...

[Ari]

You can edit the title, but the BoM tag is mainly there as a courtesy to people in case they see the topic in the related threads, and for when this forum is merged back into general Mistborn but there are still stragglers who haven't read BoM.

 

As for how tapping Investiture lets you use Metallic Arts, think about what storing Investiture must effectively do- it makes you not an Allomancer or Feruchemist temporarily, or greatly weakens your powers. Investiture is, effectively, your own capacity for magic. On top of this, the relevant Ferring would somehow also need to be storing in an Aluminiumind to make sure there's no identity locking their Nicrosilmind from others tapping it.

 

So they have an unlocked Nicrosilmind which also stores the ability to tap the other unlocked metalmind in middle of the medallions. Boom, Feruchemy anyone can use. (The tricky thing is what's going on that anyone can tap the Nicrosilmind without being the right kind of ferring- it's possibly that's a property of Nicrosilminds in general, or that something really funky is going on there)

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ari

[KidWayne]

Thanks Ari, I was having a little bit of trouble with that one too. Specifically the means by which a nicrosilmind would be created in the first place and how that was accomplished.

It seems to me that a full allomancer and feruchemist would be needed to get a medallion to grant allomancy (since you need the unlocked nicrosilmind to impart investiture granting both feruchemy and allomancy). In the book this person is fabled to be the Lord Ruler. However, the ending hints that it is either Spook or Keliser. We know that neither of them were feruchemists, so... Wait, I just got it. If you give a full allomancer an unlocked nicrosilmind you give him feruchemy, that person can then create new medallions granting whatever powers he chooses.

[Ari]

I will preface this by saying that I was also confused when I was reading the book, mainly because I had no idea that storing Investiture would work this way until I read BoM.

 

How complicated this gets depends on how nicrosilminds work. I expect that they work like tinminds, and you need a seperate nicrosilmind for each Misting or Ferring ability. (that's 32 of the things embedded in that spearhead, lol, plus another 15 metalminds to be able to use the feruchemical abilities) It's possible you can store ALL your investiture in a Nicrosilmind, but then you'd most likely have the Malwish using medallions that made them full feruchemists instead.

 

You need at least three powers to create a nicrosilmind that can be used by anyone, assuming the difference between the unlocked goldmind and the medallions the Malwish were using is just that the medallions used a nicrosilmind rather than a goldmind.

 

Either you need a Feruchemist creating their own nicrosilminds to grant the relevant powers, or you need to use Hemalurgy. I rather suspect that they've had all their Feruchemists creating a store of unlocked nicrosilminds that grant Nicrosil and Aluminium Feruchemy, rather than going around spiking all their Trueselfs and Soulbearers. We have no evidence that southern Scadrians are even aware of Hemalurgy.

 

From there, creating medallions that grant Allomancy is comparatively straightforward. You find a Twinborn that is either a Trueself or a Soulbearer. You give them the relevant medallion so that they have both the necessary Feruchemical powers. They then store their identity in an Aluminiummind, while storing their Allomancy in a new nicrosilmind.

 

Creating the double metalmind medallions is both easier, and harder. The most straightforward way is to simply have a Feruchemist do both parts, but that seems almost wasteful. You could also have a Feruchemist (or a spiked Ferring who is now both a Trueself and Soulbearer) create an Aluminium-feruchemy nicrosilmind, and a nicrosilmind edging for the medallion storing the type of feruchemy you want accessible. You pass the Aluminium-feruchemy nicrosilmind to a ferring, who then creates an unlocked metalmind. Bonus points if they're a compounding twinborn, as they don't need to use much of the nicrosilmind in order to make the inner part of the medallion.

 

If nicrosilminds work how I think, the process adds an addition nicrosilmind and an additional Ferring for each extra Feruchemical store you add to a medalion. So you need at least three people to craft those heat-and-connection medallions.

 

edit: I also just had the really weird thought while wondering about how this applies to other magic systems that creating a nicrosil Feruchemy nicrosilmind must be very slow because you have to balance keeping enough of your investiture to be able to still store investiture at an acceptable speed. I hope they have Nicrosil compounders for that.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ari

[Ruro272]

^ Pretty much agree 100% with Ari above.  He's got a good handle on the whole aluminum, nicrosil and other metal process that must be required to create a metalmind that anybody can tap.  Aluminum doesn't have to be a part of the metalmind; it simply needs to be used by the Feruchemist to store their personal Identity before filling the Nicrosil with their particular Investiture--that of Feruchemy itself.  

 

 

The obvious implications is that Nicrosil could be used to store any Investiture, not just Feruchemy.  Note that its storing Investiture itself, not a specific type of it.  

 

A Nicrosil+Aluminum Feruchemist like they must have in Southern Scadrial (whether due to full Feruchimists, Hemalurgy, or the clever mixing of coins) would store their personal Investiture--the ability to do Feruchemy--into a Identity-less Nicrosil metalmind, thus allowing anybody to use Feruchemy and use whatever metal.  But what if they gave a coin to Kaladin from Stormlight that enabled him to store his Identity into Aluminum and his Investiture into Nicrosil?  When he's storing his Investiture he's storing the ability to use Stormlight, actually it's likely that he would even transfer his Nahel bond to the Nicrosil itself, and then whoever had the coin that tapped the Nicrosil would get that bond transferred to them.  I theorize that a Duralumin metalmind--one that stores Connection--would also be critical to allow somebody to use the magic from a different planet though.  

 

It's a very interesting combination, this Aluminum+Nicrosil+Duralumin, because previously we all knew that Hemalurgy could be used to steal magics from any planet, but now we're getting a potentially less "messy" way of doing things.  It's not straightforward in the slightest, but less abhorrent than murder.  

 

This may very well be the largest hint yet as to how Hoid has powers from multiple planets.  We all know that Hoid  is not using Hemalurgy, but he does have a Lerasium bead, and we know that he uses Feruchemy to "know where to be" in the Cosmere at critical times.  These are all various WoB.  That means he is probably a full Allomancer and full Feruchemist, so any and all combinations of the above are possible to him.  He would just need a "willing" subject from another planet to store their Connection and Investiture (powers that he would grant them by use of a Nicrosil metalmind) into other Nicrosil and Duralumin metalminds and boom--magic from another planet that can be used anywhere since the "Spiritual Connection" exists within the Duralumin itself, and with no outward influence by Ruin/Harmony.  

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ruro272

[Ari]

Keep in mind your Feruchemist or Trueself/Soulbearer double-Ferring needs to give your Knight Radiant (or other investiture user) both a Feruchemical Nicrosil-nicrosilmind and a Feruchemical Aluminium-nicrosilmind, and they need Aluminium and Nicrosil to make into metalminds of their own. (Aluminium just to dump their identity into, so unless their Aluminiumind is useful for something, it can be melted down and forged into a gun or something. Or it can be an aluminium gun. Whatever.) You can't just hand them a Nicrosilmind and have them store their Investiture without storing Aluminium otherwise they'll create a medallion only they can use.

 

I'm pretty sure you can't store Connection to a specific planet in a way that unlocks the metalmind for other people to use- BoM makes it clear when Marasi tries to use the Connection medallion that storing Identity and Connection at the same time results in blank connection that grips onto the specific area you're currently in. (Presumably because the specific place you're Connected to is part of your Identity, so the process of unlocking a metalmind makes the Connection generic, or "blank", and it simply defaults to the area the tapper is in) So if you need Connection to hack investiture this way, unlocked Feruchemy can only do it when you're on the appropriate planet to use the magic anyway. So if Hoid's hacking his identity, he's not doing it using unlocked metalminds. It's entirely possible there's another way to hack your Connection that we haven't run into yet, or that there's a way around the Catch 22 that needing to store Identity to make the metalmind, and that Identity-storing maing the Connection generic that you want to be specific.

[Ruro272]

Keep in mind your Feruchemist or Trueself/Soulbearer double-Ferring needs to give your Knight Radiant (or other investiture user) both a Feruchemical Nicrosil-nicrosilmind and a Feruchemical Aluminium-nicrosilmind, and they need Aluminium and Nicrosil to make into metalminds of their own. (Aluminium just to dump their identity into, so unless their Aluminiumind is useful for something, it can be melted down and forged into a gun or something. Or it can be an aluminium gun. Whatever.) You can't just hand them a Nicrosilmind and have them store their Investiture without storing Aluminium otherwise they'll create a medallion only they can use.

 

Yes, I agree with this.  But I believe that you would only need to give the KR an (Identity-less) Nicrosil metalmind which has been stored with a Ferring's ability to use both Aluminum and Nicrosil, which makes sense considering that whoever made the Nicrosil metalmind would obviously be able to do both.  It's sort of circular logic--whoever can make an Identity-less Nicrosil metalmind would be storing their personal Investiture ability to store into both Aluminum and Nicrosil into the Nicrosil metalmind.  They would of course have to give the KR chunks of aluminum and nicrosil so they can make their own two metalminds.

 

 

I'm pretty sure you can't store Connection to a specific planet in a way that unlocks the metalmind for other people to use- BoM makes it clear when Marasi tries to use the Connection medallion that storing Identity and Connection at the same time results in blank connection that grips onto the specific area you're currently in. (Presumably because the specific place you're Connected to is part of your Identity, so the process of unlocking a metalmind makes the Connection generic, or "blank", and it simply defaults to the area the tapper is in) So if you need Connection to hack investiture this way, unlocked Feruchemy can only do it when you're on the appropriate planet to use the magic anyway. So if Hoid's hacking his identity, he's not doing it using unlocked metalminds. It's entirely possible there's another way to hack your Connection that we haven't run into yet, or that there's a way around the Catch 22 that needing to store Identity to make the metalmind, and that Identity-storing maing the Connection generic that you want to be specific.

 

Yeah, this is spot on.  It would be very tricky to create a duralumin metalmind to store your Connection that anybody could use, because you would have already stored your Identity.  My only comment is that I wouldn't necessarily take what the Malwish people have as the gospel truth and only way to store Identity-less Connection.  The Sovereign/Kelsier taught them the specific abilities they'd need to stay warm, make advanced technology, and explore other lands, but he would not have taught them abilities that would help them use the magics of another world.  At the same time, the whole idea of a Connection metalmind means that anybody could store their personal Connection into one and use their magic off-world.  Brandon has always said that its possible to use magic from one planet on another, it would just take some very specific things.  Hemalurgy is one, and I bet this is the other.

 

I agree that with the info we have now we can't say for sure that this is how Hoid has a bunch of magics, but we can for sure say how people could use their own magic on other planets.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Ruro272

[fyodor]

Allik says that metalborn can store their abilities with "excisors." I'm assuming that the excisor is something which grants nicrosil and aluminum feruchemy so that you can strip your identity and store your allomantic investiture as well as your heat/weight/etc.

[Stormgate]

I had an idea for a Nicrosil Compounder to store a bit of their power in nicrosil, then Compound it. Done enough, you might be able to get strong enough to burn the iron out of a Lurcher or Coinshot's blood, and such. This would have minimal influence on gold, cadmium, aluminum, chromium, etc. and their alloys, but zinc, copper, tin, etc would be in the body. Iron would be most damaging, of course.

[kingbirdy]

I'm really having trouble following the steps to make the medallions. Could someone lay it out simply, like

Person A makes F.Nicrosil mind

Person B taps A's F.Nicrosil to make F.Aluminum

Or however it should be? It'd be much appreciated.

[Moogle]

I'm really having trouble following the steps to make the medallions. Could someone lay it out simply, like

Person A makes F.Nicrosil mind

Person B taps A's F.Nicrosil to make F.Aluminum

Or however it should be? It'd be much appreciated.

 

We don't know how the medallions are made. Our only models have major flaws so far.

 

The more common theory is that anyone can tap/store into an unlocked nicrosilmind without being a Nicrosil Ferring. (I do not agree with this assumption.)

 

Then you:

• Find some way to have someone make an unlocked nicrosilmind which stores an Aluminum Ferring's ability.
• Find some way to have someone make an unlocked nicrosilmind which stores a Nicrosil Ferring's ability.
• Have a Ferring of the medallion metal you want tap from the first nicrosilmind, turning them into an Aluminum Ferring briefly, have them store their Identity into an aluminummind (which allows them to make unlocked metalminds), have them tap the second nicrosilmind, turning them into a Nicrosil Ferring, and have them store their original ability into an unlocked nicrosilmind.

Then, anyone can tap the unlocked nicrosilmind which stored the Ferring's power and they can use whatever metal that Ferring had access to.

 

Again, I want to stress this has a major flaw and requires anyone to be able to tap from an unlocked nicrosilmind without being a Nicrosil Ferring. I think this is wrong, but we don't have enough evidence right now.

[kingbirdy]

We don't know how the medallions are made. Our only models have major flaws so far.

The more common theory is that anyone can tap/store into an unlocked nicrosilmind without being a Nicrosil Ferring. (I do not agree with this assumption.)

Then you:

• Find some way to have someone make an unlocked nicrosilmind which stores an Aluminum Ferring's ability.
• Find some way to have someone make an unlocked nicrosilmind which stores a Nicrosil Ferring's ability.
• Have a Ferring of the medallion metal you want tap from the first nicrosilmind, turning them into an Aluminum Ferring briefly, have them store their Identity into an aluminummind (which allows them to make unlocked metalminds), have them tap the second nicrosilmind, turning them into a Nicrosil Ferring, and have them store their original ability into an unlocked nicrosilmind.

Then, anyone can tap the unlocked nicrosilmind which stored the Ferring's power and they can use whatever metal that Ferring had access to.

Again, I want to stress this has a major flaw and requires anyone to be able to tap from an unlocked nicrosilmind without being a Nicrosil Ferring. I think this is wrong, but we don't have enough evidence right now.

Ah, okay. That's more followable. Thanks! Wouldn't it have to work like that, though? I believe people besides Wayne handled the unkeyed goldmind they found, but only he could tap it - nicrosil seems to be the only difference.

[Moogle]

Ah, okay. That's more followable. Thanks! Wouldn't it have to work like that, though? I believe people besides Wayne handled the unkeyed goldmind they found, but only he could tap it - nicrosil seems to be the only difference.

 

It could work like that.

 

Stormlight spoilers:

You don't need to tap nicrosil to use a Soulcaster on Roshar, so I don't see why you would necessarily have to tap nicrosil to use a metalmind on Scadrial, however. Others disagree with me, but there's not enough evidence to state anything with confidence.

 

Soulcasters/other Surgebinding fabrials are literally just using the Surges in what appears to be a mechanical fashion, so the parallels are pretty striking to me.

 

For example, one theory I have is that nicrosil stores your Spiritweb, so the metalmind in some sense is given a soul of its own just through storing in it. Then, the metalmind itself is a Ferring and can act as a go-between for the metal touching it and you.

 

The theory is not particularly compelling, but there exist alternatives to the idea that anyone can tap from a nicrosilmind, which would be a massive exception in the laws of Feruchemy.

[kingbirdy]

It could work like that.

Stormlight spoilers:

You don't need to tap nicrosil to use a Soulcaster on Roshar, so I don't see why you would necessarily have to tap nicrosil to use a metalmind on Scadrial, however. Others disagree with me, but there's not enough evidence to state anything with confidence.

Soulcasters are fabrials, though, not a magic themselves. They're not tied to Identity just like the SoScad tech isn't.

[Moogle]

Soulcasters are fabrials, though, not a magic themselves. They're not tied to Identity just like the SoScad tech isn't.

 

Soulcasters are quite literally using the Surge of Transformation, exactly like Jasnah or Shallan can. Nalan's Regrowth fabrial healed Szeth just like Lift healed Gawx. It's magic. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean in regards to Identity.

[kingbirdy]

Soulcasters are quite literally using the Surge of Transformation, exactly like Jasnah or Shallan can. Nalan's Regrowth fabrial healed Szeth just like Lift healed Gawx. It's magic. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean in regards to Identity.

It is magic, but it's not tied to an individual's spirit web - the fabrials replicate surges like the "allomantic grenade" replicates allomancy, even though they're not tied to the identity of the person using the magic. So you wouldn't need to tap Nicrosil to use a fabrial just like you don't to use the allomancy grenade.

[Moogle]

It is magic, but it's not tied to an individual's spirit web - the fabrials replicate surges like the "allomantic grenade" replicates allomancy, even though they're not tied to the identity of the person using the magic. So you wouldn't need to tap Nicrosil to use a fabrial just like you don't to use the allomancy grenade.

 

And in a similar fashion, I would argue one does not tap nicrosil to use an unlocked metalmind. (Maybe.)

 

Note in the descriptions of Marasi and co. using the medallions, they never explicitly tap from the nicrosil metalmind. They touch the medallion, and then they feel the metalminds in question. No tapping of a strange nicrosilmind, after which they feel yet another metalmind they can tap for some reason.

 

There's an exception for Wax with the Bands, but I suspect he just had misconceptions and thought things should work that way, so he tapped the nicrosilmind on the Bands. Szeth required ten heartbeats, after all...

[kingbirdy]

And in a similar fashion, I would argue one does not tap nicrosil to use an unlocked metalmind. (Maybe.)

 

Note in the descriptions of Marasi and co. using the medallions, they never explicitly tap from the nicrosil metalmind. They touch the medallion, and then they feel the metalminds in question. No tapping of a strange nicrosilmind, after which they feel yet another metalmind they can tap for some reason.

 

There's an exception for Wax with the Bands, but I suspect he just had misconceptions and thought things should work that way, so he tapped the nicrosilmind on the Bands. Szeth required ten heartbeats, after all...

But the Nicrosil is clearly there for some purpose. If it wasn't needed, it wouldn't be integrated in to the coin. Perhaps it doesn't need to be explicitly tapped, but rather when in contact with a metalmind allows it to be tapped?

[Moogle]

But the Nicrosil is clearly there for some purpose. If it wasn't needed, it wouldn't be integrated in to the coin. Perhaps it doesn't need to be explicitly tapped, but rather when in contact with a metalmind allows it to be tapped?

 

I agree the nicrosil is there for some purpose, and I agree it is what allows the use of the medallion. Your explanation is similar to the theory I gave in the second post of our conversation (which I edited in after you posted, sorry).

 

For now, we're just in need of WoBs/new books. I don't think any theory can be compelling enough as things stand to give me strong confidence in anything. All I have is a strong feeling that nicrosil being able to be tapped by anyone is at odds with everything we know of Feruchemy, so I do not favor that theory. It could still be true, of course.

 

A big issue is that Allik is not a reliable source of information, since he was just going to say yes to any theory Wax proposed about how things worked.

[Master_Moridin]

Complete lack of anything backing this I can think of, but if the Investiture stored in nicrosil is done so in the form of a spiritweb, maybe it acts almost like a less invasive and less diverse version of hemalurgy, and touching the charged nicrosil connects the spiritweb in it to your spiritweb?

[Stormgate]

Only if the identity is blank.

[Moogle]

Complete lack of anything backing this I can think of, but if the Investiture stored in nicrosil is done so in the form of a spiritweb, maybe it acts almost like a less invasive and less diverse version of hemalurgy, and touching the charged nicrosil connects the spiritweb in it to your spiritweb?

 

Stormlight spoilers:

Or perhaps it's just as invasive as Hemalurgy...

 

I note that the ardent Soulcasters have majorly changed appearances. Almost as if they took the Surge into their own Spiritweb...

[Yata]

I have quite similar doubt about the Nicrosil Feruchemy and I Found the Moogle post quite useful.

 

For some days I was stuck in the understanding of Medallion's works.

 

EDIT: New WoB about Nicrosil Feruchemy:

 

 

Q. What's going on with nicrosil feruchemy? Wax can't tap a blank goldmind, because he's not a gold ferring, but he can tap a blank nicrosilmind even though he's not a nicrosil ferring.

A. There's a way to hack the magic system so that it thinks you have the ability to use that metalmind. The southern Scadrians know how to do this. It will be revealed later.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Yata

[fyodor]

Where is this from? Are there new interviews up?

 

 

I have quite similar doubt about the Nicrosil Feruchemy and I Found the Moogle post quite useful.

 

For some days I was stuck in the understanding of Medallion's works.

 

EDIT: New WoB about Nicrosil Feruchemy: