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There's not nearly enough salt about [Secret History Spoilers]


FeatherWriter

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I didn't like him encouraging Spook to experiment with Hemalurgy—it did seem like he was manipulating Spook to me, and I'm doubting that not one was harmed in the process of figuring out Hemalurgy. But I don't have a problem with him staying in the Cognitive Realm.

 

To be clear, if Kelsier had been motivated by wanting to help people (e.g. the Southern Scadrians), would you still think he should have gone Beyond, or is it purely his motives that are the problem?

I know this question is pointed at Featherwriter but I like what in a way it is saying, so i would like to take a stab at answering it too. I feel yes and no. If we were to look at it in world with the same information that the characters had, then Kelsier should have gone into the great beyond and left well enough alone. On one hand we know Kelsier is the type that will go against overwhelming odds and win out some how in the end. However, with the information provided in the book, even if he was focused on saving everyone on the planet, he basically had a giant slap across the face that everything he did while alive to "help" the skaa, only made things worse by releasing ruin and effectively causing a near genocide. Now it could be said that wasn't his fault, because how could he have known? It was his ignorance of the bigger picture that led that to happen. And that is exactly my point, in world, even in the cognitive realm, Kelsier is grossly ignorant. Literally he has no idea if or even how any of his actions will help. Everyone tells him not go off to chase the IRE, yet he does it, simply (in my opinion) because everyone tells him not to. So I guess basically what I am saying is, if I was standing next to Kelsier when he finds out the world is ending because of Ruin and it was because he wanted to save everyone, I would yell at him to get out of here and not screw up even more!

 

Now being a reader outside the chain of events, and knowing he ultimately does help a whole bunch, and he may very well been a big part of preservation's plan from waaaaaaaay back when, then I would say no, do not go to the great beyond, help people in that inexplicably tricky way and keep this cosmere trucking lol. 

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Everyone tells him not go off to chase the IRE, yet he does it, simply (in my opinion) because everyone tells him not to. 

 

He went haring after the IRE because he saw, essentially in vision, that that was the first step to the only way to defeat Ruin.

 

He also actually did take everybody's word for it that the IRE wouldn't give him what he needed.  He's just the kind of person who, when told that somebody won't help him on purpose, decides to con them instead.  He took a third option, but it wasn't a bad one, all things considered.

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I believe what actually made him stay was the directive to "Do better." He's determined to get back to the physical plane so he can, in fact, actually do better.

 

But then he goes around and ignores Leras's admonition that men's souls are not his toys, and starts planning on how to use them like legoblocks to build himself a new body. (using hemalurgical spikes)

Edited by NovaSeeker
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Though I will say that I think if he is gonna stay he should leave Scadrial.

 

Who's to say he didn't?  (raises eyebrow)

 

(Spoilers for Warbreaker, Stormlight, and Perfect State)

1000% CONFIRMED KELSIER IS VASHER IS ZAHEL AND NIGHTBLOOD IS AWAKENED ETTMETAL! ALSO THE COSMERE IS JUST KELSIER'S BRAIN'S PERFECT STATE WORLD

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pleas dont advocat suicide even for fictional chararcters :(

 

[suicide Discussion Content Warning]

 

I'm... not entirely sure where the idea of Kelsier moving on as suicide came from, but I assure you, I don't. I see this far more as a ghost moving on to be at peace than anything like suicide. Cognitive shadows are very much the "ghosts" of the cosmere. It's not suicide, because they're dead. They don't possess a body. They're in a space in-between life and the final resting place, but they are very much in an afterlife state.

 

I don't think Vin choosing to go to the Beyond was suicide, as Kelsier made it clear that her moving on was a choice. I see it as a natural progression of life into death into the eternity. I'm sorry if I came across sounding like I wanted Kelsier to commit suicide, but, well I don't. And from my point of view, it's a little late for that.

 

I mean, he kinda already did suicide via the Lord Ruler. (Though honestly, I don't really count Heroic Sacrifice on the same level as regular suicide either.) You could say that Vin committed suicide by throwing Preservation's power up against Ruin, but I'd say that's more sacrificial. Anyway I forgot where I was going with this, but I think you've misinterpreted my intent. If that was a fault of my wording, I apologize.

 

[End Content Warning]

 

Featherwriter, I gave your original post an upvote, even though I have no salt for this outcome whatsoever. Because you're absolutely right about everything.

 

(Also "Go to bed, Kelser" made me laugh out loud.)

 

SLEEP YOU DUMB NERD. (Also thank you.) While I appreciate new members of the Salt Brigade, having helpful, unsalty bystanders is also good.

 

I didn't like him encouraging Spook to experiment with Hemalurgy—it did seem like he was manipulating Spook to me, and I'm doubting that not one was harmed in the process of figuring out Hemalurgy. But I don't have a problem with him staying in the Cognitive Realm.

 

To be clear, if Kelsier had been motivated by wanting to help people (e.g. the Southern Scadrians), would you still think he should have gone Beyond, or is it purely his motives that are the problem?

 

I like a lot of Pathfinder's answer to this. For me, it's very much a principle of intent. Kelsier's motivations are what I have a problem with more than anything. It isn't so much what he's doing as the reasons why. If Kelsier had decided to stick around for the good of his friends, because he didn't want to leave them yet, because he wanted to watch over them fondly from the other side, that would have been different. I also think there probably would have been less Hemalurgy involved in that case.

 

I'll jump back to my ghost story trope that I used above. Kelsier's state has a lot of parallels with the traditional ghost story, and I think that's an intentional part of the way Cognitive Shadows are supposed to be. The cosmere has a technical reason for ghosts to exist, which is cool, but all in all, they're pretty much still ghosts.

 

Secret History is a ghost story told from the ghost's point of view. Kelsier is the restless spirit who cannot move on because there is lingering ties and work holding him to the world. He has a task which must be accomplished—defeating Ruin— and he cannot go to the afterlife and be at peace until it is done. He must wander the world and attempt to help the living solve it before he can move on.

 

Perhaps then, it was the subversion of the trope that gave me such a knee-jerk reaction. I felt like at the end of Secret History, our ghost's problem has been resolved. Ruin was defeated and Kelsier played his major role in it. Beyond that, a great number of the people who he was sticking around for were now moving on and passing to be at peace. It was time for our ghost to have his conclusion of release and fondly look back on what he did for the world while moving on to the next.

 

And instead of that, we got the ghost saying "Well, thanks for helping me solve that. Sure feels good to have it accomplished. Now, I'm going to go bug my living friend until he figures out a way for me to come back to life for real, alright? Cool. Thanks." Like, not only was Kelsier messing up the end of his story (in a truly spectacularly Kelsier fashion) but he was doing it for his own selfish reasons and with no good justification why he wasn't following the script. Other than "Nah, don't feel like it."

 

Looking back on it now, I'm wildly impressed that Brandon managed to tell a ghost story in which the ghost "nopes" out of moving on after his quest is solved like that because I think it's kind of a cool twist. But just because the literary analyst in me loves the trope subversion doesn't mean I think the character subverting the trope was being dumb, from an in-world perspective, to do it.

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Go to the Beyond, Kell. Go see your wife, apologize to Dox, be with Vin and Elend.

For this at least it seems pretty clear to me that Kelsier (or anyone else for that matter including the shards) really don't know what's in the Beyond. It'd be one thing if Kelsier was looking through a window and could see all of his friends waiting for him and chose not to go, but the Beyond is a mystery beyond death. He's already unhappy about the whole being dead thing, but to him it's at least *something*. He can still act, and going to the beyond would be to lie down and accept things no longer being in his hands, which is against his nature.

Edited by rabidhexley
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Looking back on it now, I'm wildly impressed that Brandon managed to tell a ghost story in which the ghost "nopes" out of moving on after his quest is solved like that because I think it's kind of a cool twist. But just because the literary analyst in me loves the trope subversion doesn't mean I think the character subverting the trope was being dumb, from an in-world perspective, to do it.

It actually might go beyond just being the "ghost of Kelsier". He's the cognitive representation of who Kelsier was to himself and everyone else on Scadrial. When he died he became a literal symbol, a concept, that was only reinforced by his plan. It makes sense to me that- especially since Kelsier spent so much time as a cognitive shadow -he would grow to embody the concepts that he represents in the minds of the living.

 

While in life he was just a man, a stubborn man, but still a flesh and blood dude. In the minds of the people he was the Survivor. And this is especially strong given that he'd died centuries earlier and people in the 2nd era present day *still* believe him to survive. At this point "The Survivor" isn't just something he's pretending to be to inspire the oppressed masses anymore, it's the actual part of him that remains after his death.  

 

I just think that saying he's "just" a ghost doesn't hold up given what we know about the cognitive realm, even if he plays that role for most of the novella from a narrative standpoint.

Edited by rabidhexley
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He really is settling down with this "Survivor of Death" gig isn't he?

At this point he's kinda still in denial of "people die when they are killed", and I see where he's coming from, but was hemalurgy and resurrection really necessary?

Edited by natc
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He really is settling down with this "Survivor of Death" gig isn't he?

At this point he's kinda still in denial of "people die when they are killed", and I see where he's coming from, but was hemalurgy and resurrection really necessary?

The purpose between his study of hemalurgy and possible ressurection, as far as I understood, was to learn the secrets of the cosmere and stop further menaces to Scadrial. It is his planet after all.

All the work of his lifetime on the Physical Realm was actualy ploted by a god of destruction and resulted in the end of the world. He now knows there is much in the Cosmere he doens't understand, and feels it is his duty to seek answers so what happened does not happen again.

While tempting Spook to use hemalurgy is dark indeed, I can understand his reasons.

Edited by DreamEternal
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  • 1 year later...

Hey I ABSOLUTELY agree with that!

To be honest, I just finished the book and end up feeling confused and annoyed like you did. Why Kelsier keep hanging around? It would be really, really perfect if he went to beyond in the end.

Yet he didn't.

My point of view is that we've already let Kelsier go, in TFE. Remember what he wrote in his last letter? He told Vin that he's ready for death. He said he should've died several years ago. He said he would meet Mare and tell her about Vin.

These words really touched me, no matter how many times I reread them.

And now the truth is that he's still sticking around?

damnation.

But yeah, I can understand why Shanderson brought him back. Because he's selfish and he is survivor and something like that. 

However, I still think it would be fine and reasonable if he got back to beyond in the end. I think now the main reason we can rely on is his love for Mare. Look, it may be true that he doesn't really know love, but he did care about Mare. The decision to keep sticking around is like abandoning her...

Not to mention how many times I'd dreamed about he and Mare and Vin and Elend being together. And SH destroyed all of them. 

 

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