There's not nearly enough salt about [Secret History Spoilers]

[FeatherWriter]

Admittedly, I realize this is a plot development that was bound to elicit ambivalent reactions from the fandom, but I have to come and represent my side, alright. Though I've found some people who are immediately on my side, there's a good majority who don't have any kind of problem with it. 

 

So, it falls to me to ask. Anyone else mad/frustrated/annoyed at Kelsier for sticking around?

 

And I don't mean the first time. Honestly, he kind of owed it to the Original Crew to stick around and try to help prevent the end of the world, especially since he was partially to blame for all the Ruin stuff in the first place. But afterwards? The job's done, he did his part. Why in the world is he sticking around still?

 

That question is entirely rhetorical of course. I know why he's doing it. Because he's Kelsier and he wants to continue Kelsiering for his own sense of adventure and fun. He's a dumb, selfish, ego baby who needs to learn when to move on and let go.  I can't even be mad at Brandon for this development because it is so unabashedly Kelsier that I'm honestly mad at myself for being surprised.

 

The fact that it's expected doesn't make it not dumb though. Go to the Beyond, Kell. Go see your wife, apologize to Dox, be with Vin and Elend. Leave Spook alone to rule the new world on his own and stop trying to get him to do Hemalurgy! Just... stop with everything that you're doing right now, okay? 

 

But no. Kelsier just has to keep going. Look, I love Kell as much as the next fan. He's wildly charismatic and entertaining, but there's no personal reason for him to keep meddling with everything! He's not even pretending to be altruistic here either. He doesn't tell Harmony that he's sticking around to help people or because he thinks the world still needs him. It's literally just that he wants to. He's meddling with the world and mucking things up for no better reason than that he's bored and he wants to.

 

Quite honestly, I reached the end of the book and felt like an underpaid babysitter or something. Go to bed, Kelsier. It is long past time you were asleep. Leave your friends alone and go rest. Saze has this in hand. Marsh is helping him out. They've got the Kandra. You are no longer needed and you need to go. But as of Bands, I think we've got pretty good proof that he most certainly did not go and is sticking around and meddling, meddling, meddling.

 

Even Sazed's on my side. I'm sure that's the reason he lied about Kell being able to come back. Because he knows that Kelsier needs to move on and this fixed fascination on returning is unhealthy and only going to lead to trouble. I just sit here thinking about the end like "Kelsier, why must you be this way, honestly????"

 

Tangentally related: I found a thread I posted five years ago in which I stated that Kelsier coming back was a bad idea and definitely shouldn't happen. (From my own "Introduce Yourself" thread, actually.) Talk about a blast from the past...

 

I think I've decided that unless he ever outright states that it never happened, I am holding to the belief that somewhere down the road, Sazed figured out the put-souls-in-bodies thing and gave Vin and Elend another, more peaceful life somewhere away from everyone else. Because that is just sickeningly heartwarming. If anyone deserves it, it's those two.

But not Kelsier. I'm fairly sure Saze would never trust Kel to keep a non-intervention policy. As soon as Kel got re-incarnated he'd jump on the first train to Elendel and widely proclaim "Hey, it's me, the Survivor! I'm back from the dead again!"

Cue Sazed facepalming and sending the kandra off to kill him again before he causes more trouble. (Random note: Can shardholders still facepalm? Maybe it's nexuspalm or something...)

 

 

I like Vin and Elend moving on quite a bit more than my own old version, but still. Kelsier coming back is a bad idea and I'm mad at him for trying/doing it. 

 

Alright, I think that's enough salt for one intro thread, right? Tell me I'm not alone in this though. There's got to be others who think Kell's being an idiot in sticking around? Join my salt brigade, friends. 

[ParadoxicalZen]

I am a little in this boat, but as you said, it's typical Kelsier. Although to me, it sounds like he's scared, like really scared, in an almost childlike irrational way

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Admittedly, I realize this is a plot development that was bound to elicit ambivalent reactions from the fandom, but I have to come and represent my side, alright. Though I've found some people who are immediately on my side, there's a good majority who don't have any kind of problem with it.

So, it falls to me to ask. Anyone else mad/frustrated/annoyed at Kelsier for sticking around?

And I don't mean the first time. Honestly, he kind of owed it to the Original Crew to stick around and try to help prevent the end of the world, especially since he was partially to blame for all the Ruin stuff in the first place. But afterwards? The job's done, he did his part. Why in the world is he sticking around still?

That question is entirely rhetorical of course. I know why he's doing it. Because he's Kelsier and he wants to continue Kelsiering for his own sense of adventure and fun. He's a dumb, selfish, ego baby who needs to learn when to move on and let go. I can't even be mad at Brandon for this development because it is so unabashedly Kelsier that I'm honestly mad at myself for being surprised.

The fact that it's expected doesn't make it not dumb though. Go to the Beyond, Kell. Go see your wife, apologize to Dox, be with Vin and Elend. Leave Spook alone to rule the new world on his own and stop trying to get him to do Hemalurgy! Just... stop with everything that you're doing right now, okay?

But no. Kelsier just has to keep going. Look, I love Kell as much as the next fan. He's wildly charismatic and entertaining, but there's no personal reason for him to keep meddling with everything! He's not even pretending to be altruistic here either. He doesn't tell Harmony that he's sticking around to help people or because he thinks the world still needs him. It's literally just that he wants to. He's meddling with the world and mucking things up for no better reason than that he's bored and he wants to.

Quite honestly, I reached the end of the book and felt like an underpaid babysitter or something. Go to bed, Kelsier. It is long past time you were asleep. Leave your friends alone and go rest. Saze has this in hand. Marsh is helping him out. They've got the Kandra. You are no longer needed and you need to go. But as of Bands, I think we've got pretty good proof that he most certainly did not go and is sticking around and meddling, meddling, meddling.

Even Sazed's on my side. I'm sure that's the reason he lied about Kell being able to come back. Because he knows that Kelsier needs to move on and this fixed fascination on returning is unhealthy and only going to lead to trouble. I just sit here thinking about the end like "Kelsier, why must you be this way, honestly????"

Tangentally related: I found a thread I posted five years ago in which I stated that Kelsier coming back was a bad idea and definitely shouldn't happen. (From my own "Introduce Yourself" thread, actually.) Talk about a blast from the past...

I like Vin and Elend moving on quite a bit more than my own old version, but still. Kelsier coming back is a bad idea and I'm mad at him for trying/doing it.

Alright, I think that's enough salt for one intro thread, right? Tell me I'm not alone in this though. There's got to be others who think Kell's being an idiot in sticking around? Join my salt brigade, friends.

Eh. From Fuzz's comments I got the impression that this could be applied to Hoid.

Though I will say that I think if he is gonna stay he should leave Scadrial.

[Argent]

I am okay with Kell sticking around. He provides a very tangible link between the eras, and with all of the other anchors we have (Sazed, Marsh, TenSoon) being to... scarce, Kelsier and his eternal meddling are guaranteed to make me happy every time he shows up on page. Plus, he is a little less like the Kelsier we knew from the original trilogy, he is more mature now. A little more responsible. Getting to know - and hold - Preservation has done good things for him, I think. 

[FeatherWriter]

Eh. From Fuzz's comments I got the impression that this could be applied to Hoid.

Though I will say that I think if he is gonna stay he should leave Scadrial.

 

Heh. If Kell wants to stick around so bad, let's ship him to Roshar and have him punch Odium in the face for a bit?

 

 

I am okay with Kell sticking around. He provides a very tangible link between the eras, and with all of the other anchors we have (Sazed, Marsh, TenSoon) being to... scarce, Kelsier and his eternal meddling are guaranteed to make me happy every time he shows up on page. Plus, he is a little less like the Kelsier we knew from the original trilogy, he is more mature now. A little more responsible. Getting to know - and hold - Preservation has done good things for him, I think. 

 

I definitely agree that the events of Secret History were a good thing for Kelsier and that he's a lot more mature. Vin's absolutely beautiful callout of him at the end was probably a good thing too. 

 

 

Ah, Kelsier,” she said. “You have a lot to learn about love, don’t you?”

 

   “I know love, Vin. Everything I’ve done—the fall of the empire, the power I’ve given up—that was all about love.”

 

   She smiled. “Kelsier. You are a great man, and should be proud of what you’ve done. And you do love. I know you do. But at the same time, I don’t think you understand it.”

 

   She turned her gaze toward Elend, who was vanishing, only his hand—in hers—still visible. “Thank you, Kelsier,” she whispered, looking back at him, “for all you have done. Your sacrifice was amazing. But to do the things you had to do, to defend the world, you had to become something. Something that worries me.

 

   “Once, you taught me an important lesson about friendship. I need to return that lesson. A last gift. You need to know, you need to ask. How much of what you’ve done was about love, and how much was about proving something? That you hadn’t been betrayed, bested, beaten? Can you answer honestly, Kelsier?”

 

   He met her eyes, and saw the implicit question.

 

   How much was about us? it asked. And how much was about you?

 

   “I don’t know,” he said to her.

But he didn't quite learn enough from it, I feel. It's still all about him. I hope that now in the future he's going to be more careful, especially considering Preservation's command to not toy with the hearts of men, but I don't know. The way he co-opts Spook for the mission of "figure out how to bring me back to life" when Spook has much better things to be doing, like say, leading all the survivors. And the way that he seems to immediately establish himself as the Sovereign to the Southern Scadrians. It makes me feel like he really hasn't learned as much as he needs to.

[baby]

Kel always loved being in the thick of it. I don't think he could move on and 'live' with the fact that he won't be able to interact with the world.

[VoltCruelerz]

OP, that was a delightfully gleeful rant, thank you.  Also, I now really want some fanart of Kelsier showing up in Elendel and Sazed facepalming.

 

On topic though, I don't mind.  As you said, Kelsier loves Kelsiering.  It's perfectly within character for him to claw his way back from the grave and to muck with everything he sees.  I'm very interested to see what happens in the future trilogies between him and Hoid.  Both are happy to burn down the world to get what they want so the two of them chasing each other around would be fun to see.  

 

I recall that Hoid once made a comment on Roshar about coming to see an old friend but ended up doing a lot of running from him instead.  I figured at the time that it was just Demoux, Galladon, and/or some other 17th Sharder.  Who knows, maybe it was Kelsier?

[yafeshan]

Kelsier is much like a modern version of Hoid. They are so much alike. I believe we will be used to him by the time we had more cosmere books and we will be trying to guess if Kelsier was there meddling with worlds.

[Purelake Earthquake]

Argh, I've got to strongly disagree with this.

 

You're really annoyed at Kell for staying alive?  Why not be mad a Marsh or Demoux or anyone else who's lived and extended lifetime?  The only difference is that Kell's body died.  Except, at the end of SH Kelsier hadn't even lived a natural lifespan either.  He died a premature death at the Lord Ruler's hands.  He died young, but now he has a chance to pursue continued existence.  Why in the heck shouldn't he?

 

Wanting to live shouldn't make someone a "big, selfish, ego baby".

 

What I'm essentially getting out of this is that Kelsier should die just because he can and his because job is done.  People don't live just to do one thing.  He's completed his purpose, great, now he can find a new purpose.  At the very beginning of SH it looks very similar, he did what he needed for the plan, and now it was up to the rest of the crew.  But, if he hadn't clung to life then he wouldn't have been around long enough to see how messed up things really were.

 

You talk about Kelsier meddling, like he's running around playing pranks or something.  He saved a continent full of people that everyone else seems to have neglected.  He may have selfish reasons for doing good things, but those aren't the only reasons, and he's doing good things.

 

He stuck around during SH to make sure his friends, and the world, didn't all get wiped out.  Well, that really hasn't changed very much.  There's a red haze bearing down on Saze, who's having difficulties dealing with the Intents of his Shards, and there are several other forces which would probably get the drop on Scadrial given the chance.

 

I feel like Harmony needs someone like Kelsier to act as a straight man.  Someone to tell him if his Shards are messing him up too much.  Ati and Leras seemed to get really wonked out by their Shards.

 

Saying Kelsier should just go to the Beyond already, seems equivalent to saying he should let himself die.  The way I understand the Beyond is that it's supposed to be like the idea of an afterlife in real life.  Souls might be going to an afterlife or they might be going to oblivion  Some people believe in it, some people don't, and there isn't direct physical evidence for its existence.

Kelsier was an atheist before he died, and I don't think a knowledge of Realmatics is necessarily going to change that for him.  There's a good chance that he doesn't think that there is anything Beyond.  He's probably not sure that he gets to go be with Mare again, but if there is an afterlife, it's not going anywhere.

 

Narrative wise, I think it's alright for Kelsier to be alive because Vin and Kelsier are gone for certain.  I never cared quite as much about Kell as other people seemed to, so this is more like a consolation prize or an apology gift.

 

 

I really hope this doesn't come off as antagonistic or anything, I just don't like the idea that it's somehow morally wrong or stupid for Kelsier to continue to live.

[yurisses]

Kelsier just found out about the cosmere and Hoid, and you're asking him to move on? MAAATE, I'm 100% with Kel on this one.

Edited February 1, 2016 by yurisses

[Guy Srinivasan]

Why would Kelsier have any obligation whatsoever to Die? No one knows what's "beyond", right? It's just death as we know it but removed a level?

"Enough whining, get in the cosmeric garbage collector and we promise you'll, um, see your wife."

[Ryshadium]

Kelsier continuing to survive, using whatever means he can, is an amazing way to carry on a wonderfully complex character. He essentially saved all of scadrial, by refusing to let go. I have no desire to see Kell go beyond. He has too much surviving to accomplish.

[Maya]

Why in the world is he sticking around still? That question is entirely rhetorical of course. I know why he's doing it. Because he's Kelsier and he wants to continue Kelsiering

See, you have your answer and anything else would have been out of character.

 

And I don't mean the first time. Honestly, he kind of owed it to the Original Crew to stick around and try to help prevent the end of the world, especially since he was partially to blame for all the Ruin stuff in the first place. But afterwards? The job's done, he did his part. Why in the world is he sticking around still?

 

I believe i understand where your annoyance comes from. I've had the same sense of closure at the end of SH. Kelsier fought befind the scene - met gods, people from other worlds, held the power of a shard himself - and after all that he will just go back to be a normal guy and maybe go help building the new world with Spook? Please.

No, Kelsier didn't belong on Scadrial's day to day events anymore, I kind of felt the place too small for him now (enough to be in serious danger if he went on meddling in it). But he never thought of doing so himself either. No, he saw much bigger game - other worlds, other people, other powers - that he knew nothing about. Imagine what influence this will have on a character like Kerlsier, almost irresistible challenge.

 

So, what would Kelsier do?

Sure, he may stick around, mostly till he solves some practical problems with his own physical body and if possible restoring some of his lost powers through the metallic arts (even helping some people in the process) and he will plan and scheme and so on but his focus will never again be towards the internal events. No, his game will be out there.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

See, you have your answer and anything else would have been out of character.

 

 

I believe i understand where your annoyance comes from. I've had the same sense of closure at the end of SH. Kelsier fought befind the scene - met gods, people from other worlds, held the power of a shard himself - and after all that he will just go back to be a normal guy and maybe go help building the new world with Spook? Please.

No, Kelsier didn't belong on Scadrial's day to day events anymore, I kind of felt the place too small for him now (enough to be in serious danger if he went on meddling in it). But he never thought of doing so himself either. No, he saw much bigger game - other worlds, other people, other powers - that he knew nothing about. Imagine what influence this will have on a character like Kerlsier, almost irresistible challenge.

 

So, what would Kelsier do?

Sure, he may stick around, mostly till he solves some practical problems with his own physical body and if possible restoring some of his lost powers through the metallic arts (even helping some people in the process) and he will plan and scheme and so on but his focus will never again be towards the internal events. No, his game will be out there.

 

 

I can't wait for some worldhoppers from other books just get exasperated with Kells antics and say something to the effect of "I thought one Hoid was bad now we have Hoids evil twin too?!"

 

On a side note. if he went to Roshar could he make a nahel Bond with someone there that gives them his Mistborn powers?

[Kairos]

Honestly, Kelsier coming back just fits.

His motivation, what he does, how he fights against the way reality works...it's almost inspirational, if it wasn't Kelsier. Honestly I felt like this was so much more fitting than (Stormlight WoR spoiler)

Szeth or Jasnah, both of whom were entirely out of nowhere.

After all, Kelsier is the Survivor.

[masaru]

I assume BoM details are allowed in this. Given the implications for the end of that, it's about pure ego for Kelsier. Not only did he stick around longer than he really needed to, he felt the need to cast himself in the savior/leader role again with the South. Has a massive superiority complex and really needs validation. 

[Shardbearer]

I don't have a problem with Kelsier sticking around. We already knew from WoB that he was still interfering with things, so this really isn't a surprise at all. And as you said, it's very in character for Kelsier to survive even his own death.

[Purelake Earthquake]

Not only did he stick around longer than he really needed to, he felt the need to cast himself in the savior/leader role again with the South. Has a massive superiority complex and really needs validation. 

 

He's not just casting himself in the savior role for the South, he's also saving the South.  You know, preventing all the people on a continent from freezing to death.  That was kind of a very important thing which needed to be done.

 

This feels like a simplification of his character.  He does have quite a large ego, but it's far from the primary motivator for everything he does.  He probably gets a kick out of being in that role, but I doubt that's why he's doing it.

 

If he just wanted to fuel his ego there were plenty of other things he could have done.  If anything, it seems like his ego has gotten more in check after SH.  But, unless he's gone off-planet and made himself the king of Threnody or something, he must have switched to working in the shadows after saving the South.

[DreamEternal]

If he just wanted to fuel his ego there were plenty of other things he could have done. If anything, it seems like his ego has gotten more in check after SH. But, unless he's gone off-planet and made himself the king of Threnody or something, he must have switched to working in the shadows after saving the South.

I can see him eventualy trying this, people had it pretty hard in Hell and he could see making himself their holy savior as similar to what he did in the Final Empire. As long as he felt he could actualy help them.

Edited February 1, 2016 by DreamEternal

[king of nowhere]

I assume BoM details are allowed in this. Given the implications for the end of that, it's about pure ego for Kelsier. Not only did he stick around longer than he really needed to, he felt the need to cast himself in the savior/leader role again with the South. Has a massive superiority complex and really needs validation. 

So, he should have let the southerners to die. yay, those dirty southerners deserved no better. i mean, it's not like sazed took care of them or anythhing. he could have done something to heat them, then they wouldn't have looked  at kelsier as a deity for saving them.

 

regarding kelsier's ego, it is true that he needs a wheelbarrow to carry it around. but after he escaped the pits, I've never seen him fuel his ego with acts that were less than selfless. when somebody regularly helps people he owes nothing to at great personal cost and risk and without asking anything in exchange than be cherished as a hero, well, I feel he has a right to it. I'd certainly not be saying something on the line of  'you bastard, I don't want your help cause you're only doing it to feel good yourself'. Not when he's casting off a god-emperor who enslaved everybody, or he helped defeat a god of destruction that was killing all life on the planet, or when he saved the people of a whole continent. I wish there was more people as selfish as kelsier.

[Ryshadium]

Kelsier has an ego, but his experiences in the Cognitive seem to have tempered that slightly. I can't think of a single character whose resurrection makes more sense.

[natc]

I'm sure most people like getting credit for doing good deeds, and Kell just seems to enjoy it more than most. Doesn't necessarily mean they mind if they don't get credit, and hell this time he saved a whole civilization and then described his background to the saved people in such a way that everyone would actually mistake him for Rashek if they didn't know the guy.

Mass murder of nobles aside, after the Pits he's mostly been a good man, even a great man to most of his crew, doing (relatively) good things. Just hasn't quite dropped his tendency to bask in the glory of a challenge overcome from his thieving days, I'd say. Old habits die hard I guess? And then he generally drops the subject for the next big amazing thing that really needs done. He played up destroying Hathsin for what, all of a few sentences each before moving on with the plan?

[lDanielHolm]

In my opinion, Sazed didn't save the southern Scadrians because he was much too busy a.) getting used to sudden deityhood, and b.) fixing all the problems Rashek inflicted on the planet during his Ascension. After that, when things calmed down, he was Harmony. Ruin pulls him in one direction, Preservation in another. He had just preserved the entire planet. He likely felt like he couldn't interfere more than he already had.

Edited February 2, 2016 by lDanielHolm

[masaru]

When I characterize Kelsier as being ego-driven and casting himself as the savior, I'm taking into account Vin's very insightful parting words to him about not really knowing what love is. It speaks to how Kelsier views his actions. He requires validation and that validation is what makes him feel "love." Which is clearly what he got in the South. Except that that version of love was adulation and deification by the people he saved. It's kind of icky.

[KnightGradient]

Kelsier isn't afraid to die. He's tried to kill at least three 'gods'(Leras, Ati, and Rashek). He knew each time he would probably die, and he did die on one. I don't think that its only his ego, or his 'altruism', but his fear. Fear of an afterlife where he'd presumably have to confront Mare. I don't think he wants to do that, so instead, he shoves a spike in his eye, and meddles the rusts out of the SoScadrians.