Night Eyes Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 So Kelsier survived and I belive he's the Sovereign from BoM. It appears he left Scadrial after the temple was built, but where did he go? Could we see him on Sel in Elantris 2? Could we have seen him on Narhis or Roshar operating under another name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King's Twit Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 If the person in the memory from the coppermind coin is Kelsier, then he has arms covered in scars and a large spike through his eye. The scars you could cover with some long sleeves, but surely someone would have remarked on seeing a person with a spike head sticking out of their face, unless he hid it behind some kind of mask or eyepatch, or learned some form of Illusion-making like Lightweaving. Since Kelsier ends the novella saying that he wants to become more Cosmere-aware, its possible that he's gained access to some other world's magic system or some other method of altering his appearance in the Physical Realm, but then there would be no way to recognize Kel, unless he just made himself look like he did before being spiked. So either he looks like the Soveriegn, in which case he almost certainly hasn't been seen clearly by any POV characters from other novels, or he's somehow altering his appearance, in which case he will likely only be identifiable by his dialogue (either something distinctive to Kelsier or to Scadrial) or his actions (Using a Metallic Art) I would lose my rust if some unknown character in Stormlight 3 says "There's always another secret". 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 A very recent Word of Brandon is that his presence is felt in Wax and Wayne books in a way similar to the original trilogy. In general, given what we know from reading Hero of Ages and Secret History, I feel that his presence can be felt by a character in the Wax and Wayne series when they are on a verge of some decision. If the decision they make is abrupt, or if they seem to be 50-50 on what to do and then choose something, this is a spot for "Kelsier meddling". Cookies to doughnuts, he is trying to convince Wax to NOT put the earring on in BoM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nervousnerd Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 A very recent Word of Brandon is that his presence is felt in Wax and Wayne books in a way similar to the original trilogy. In general, given what we know from reading Hero of Ages and Secret History, I feel that his presence can be felt by a character in the Wax and Wayne series when they are on a verge of some decision. If the decision they make is abrupt, or if they seem to be 50-50 on what to do and then choose something, this is a spot for "Kelsier meddling". Cookies to doughnuts, he is trying to convince Wax to NOT put the earring on in BoM. Meaning that he is back in the Cognitive Realm and trying to influence him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted January 31, 2016 Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 If the person in the memory from the coppermind coin is Kelsier, then he has arms covered in scars and a large spike through his eye. The scars you could cover with some long sleeves, but surely someone would have remarked on seeing a person with a spike head sticking out of their face, unless he hid it behind some kind of mask or eyepatch, or learned some form of Illusion-making like Lightweaving. Since Kelsier ends the novella saying that he wants to become more Cosmere-aware, its possible that he's gained access to some other world's magic system or some other method of altering his appearance in the Physical Realm, but then there would be no way to recognize Kel, unless he just made himself look like he did before being spiked. So either he looks like the Soveriegn, in which case he almost certainly hasn't been seen clearly by any POV characters from other novels, or he's somehow altering his appearance, in which case he will likely only be identifiable by his dialogue (either something distinctive to Kelsier or to Scadrial) or his actions (Using a Metallic Art) I would lose my rust if some unknown character in Stormlight 3 says "There's always another secret". Well if he is Sovereign then he has gold feruchemy which means he could just heal it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Meaning that he is back in the Cognitive Realm and trying to influence him? Yes. As I said, this is how I took the WoB. Wouldn't be surprised. It does not have to be Wax and it does not have to be that specific selection of scenes, but in my mind the backstage would operate roughly similarly to Kel's period between the return from the trip to the Ire and Vin's Ascension. Whether Sazed is trying to chase him away from specific people remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Well if he is Sovereign then he has gold feruchemy which means he could just heal it. Unless that spike is largely tied into him inhabiting his body. In which case, removing it or any other spikes he may or may not have would be problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nervousnerd Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Yes. As I said, this is how I took the WoB. Wouldn't be surprised. It does not have to be Wax and it does not have to be that specific selection of scenes, but in my mind the backstage would operate roughly similarly to Kel's period between the return from the trip to the Ire and Vin's Ascension. Whether Sazed is trying to chase him away from specific people remains to be seen. For the earring, I don't see it that way myself. I mean it is possible that Kelsier is back in the cognitive realm (he seems to have gone somewhere) but Wax was the one trying to convince himself not to put in the earring. He didn't trust Harmony and didn't want to speak to him. I also don't see Sazed really minding that Keliser is still around or that he is trying to return to the physical realm. Yes, he was dangerous when he was alive but he has really changed and Sazed would know him better than anyone now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I also don't see Sazed really minding that Keliser is still around or that he is trying to return to the physical realm. Yes, he was dangerous when he was alive but he has really changed and Sazed would know him better than anyone now. Kelsier tempted Spook to dabble in hemalurgy in a way worringly reminiscent of a demonic pact, promising immortality in the hopes of aquiring a hold on the physical world. And he plans to use hemalurgy to greatly expand his knowledge on the cosmere. Yeah, not dangerous anymore, all death taught him were lessons on morality he instantly got right. And non-interference, to prevent any "Greater Good" inspired dangerous actions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 So after re-reading the last scene of BoM, there's pretty much no doubt that the Sovereign is Kelsier. The scars on the arms are a giveaway, but there's a more subtle one - the fact that the long, bunker-like building reminds him of something. That is pretty much the exact description of the buildings that the skaa used to live in during the Final Empire. In fact, the whole scene is extremely reminiscent of the first scene of The Final Empire, where Kelsier visits Tresting's estate. Another question this scene raises - how did Kelsier get Feruchemy? He obviously made the coppermind that stores the memory, so he's got at least that, and likely the rest as well, if he's the Sovereign that taught the Southerners. And if only one eye is spiked, we can maybe assume that he didn't get it through Hemalurgy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdinorma Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 ...And if only one eye is spiked, we can maybe assume that he didn't get it through Hemalurgy. Perhaps only one eye is spiked in order to avoid being controlled by Harmony. He wanted to have an Inquisitor's sight, retain one human eye and not be left vulnerable to control by Harmony. Wouldn't one spike allow communication with Harmony, whereas two or more would allow Harmony complete control? If this is so, It would suggest that Kelsier and Harmony are, if not enemies, don't see eye to eye. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PallonianFire Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 If this is so, It would suggest that Kelsier and Harmony are, if not enemies, don't see eye to eye. That's the most reasonable answer, IMO. Sazed has certainly changed, but he still remembers Kelsier, so he knows what he's capable of...and is probably pretty wary about him doing something drastic. Which, it's Kell, so of course he did something drastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Eyes Posted February 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 That's the most reasonable answer, IMO. Sazed has certainly changed, but he still remembers Kelsier, so he knows what he's capable of...and is probably pretty wary about him doing something drastic. Which, it's Kell, so of course he did something drastic. Good point. I think Sazed might have gleamed some knowledge about Kelsier / the future when he first held the power of both Preservation and Ruin. Now Sazed is actively (actively for Sazed is passive aggressive not direct confrontation) trying to hinder Kelsier from achieving his goal. Easiest way is to withhold information regarding getting to the physical realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 If this is so, It would suggest that Kelsier and Harmony are, if not enemies, don't see eye to eye. I see what you did there. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Perhaps only one eye is spiked in order to avoid being controlled by Harmony. He wanted to have an Inquisitor's sight, retain one human eye and not be left vulnerable to control by Harmony. Wouldn't one spike allow communication with Harmony, whereas two or more would allow Harmony complete control? If this is so, It would suggest that Kelsier and Harmony are, if not enemies, don't see eye to eye. Two Spikes is the minimum needed for Harmony to control a Kandra. It's suggested in BoM that a human can have up to three before losing control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasarr Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Two Spikes is the minimum needed for Harmony to control a Kandra. It's suggested in BoM that a human can have up to three before losing control I doubt Kelsier would know that - by the time he-as-Sovereign arrived in the South, people weren't being hemalurgically spiked anymore. If Sazed was witholding data from him, kandras would be Kelsier's only proof of how Harmony's control works. He might've assumed the rules are the same for kandra and people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyodor Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Allik told Wax that the Sovereign had all of the powers so he would have needed a bunch of spikes to get them. So given that Kelsier had all of the Feruchemical abilities he may have just needed an eye socket as a binding point to fit in all of the abilities or it could have had some specific relation to how he managed to enter the physical realm. Since Kelsier presumably used the pile of inquisitor spikes from Kreldik Shaw that he mentioned to Spook I am not sure why there would have been spikes for aluminum feruchemy or some of the less combat oriented abilities (heat, food, connection). It doesn't seem like the kind of power you'd want to waste a Feruchemist on. Edited February 4, 2016 by fyodor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruro272 Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 It's quite likely that he is actually off Scadrial entirely, doing things in the Cosmere to benefit Scadrial. He's not a Hoid-like character that has a grand agenda, and he's not like Khriss who just wants to discover the truth to everything, but he does truly care for his planet and people. He's clearly found a way to give himself a physical form and went to help the Southern folk (though I still don't understand why Harmony wouldn't have done this himself...), but he doesn't really need to stick around the planet because Harmony is quite involved. I honestly can't see him going back to the Cognitive realm long-term and being under Harmony's thumb. Given his very unique circumstances in Secret History he is actually the only person on all of Scadrial aware of the fact that some otherworldly beings literally tried to steal his planet's God. I doubt he is worried for Harmony's direct safety, but the fact that some aliens tried to screw up his planet has got to be a serious thorn in his side, and its something that Harmony could not investigate himself. If I was Kelsier I would not be sticking around Scadrial to protect the people--he already did that in the South and it's in good hands with Saze--I would be on other planets trying to learn more about the Cosmere as a whole and especially figuring out what those old-chull Elantrians have up their sleeves next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I doubt Kelsier would know that - by the time he-as-Sovereign arrived in the South, people weren't being hemalurgically spiked anymore. If Sazed was witholding data from him, kandras would be Kelsier's only proof of how Harmony's control works. He might've assumed the rules are the same for kandra and people. Before Kelsier even got a body, he was talking to Spook to research into hemalurgy. He knows kandra exist, and he also knows koloss came from humans, so it would be reasonable to believe that by the time they reached the level of research to bring Kelsier back, that he would know how many spikes would mean Harmony could control him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) Saze might have given kelsier a body in return for saving the southeners , and perhaps, investigate things outside of Scadrial where Sazed cant go - or atleast, he cant go without great sacrifices. Kelsier is good at convincing people. Gods even. And its not he and harmony are hostile to eachother as the book ends. Edited February 4, 2016 by dyring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 (edited) End of BoM spoilers He's clearly found a way to give himself a physical form and went to help the Southern folk (though I still don't understand why Harmony wouldn't have done this himself...), Who wants to bet that getting Kell to help the Southerner's was part of Harmony's plan all along? (Someone else moves us). Saze knows Kell well enough to know he can't resist a good meddling letting him figure out how to get his body back by himself, making it a challenge rather than handing it to him, gave him a purpose, but maybe also gave Saze some breathing room to do some other God-stuff that needed doing first (or just to grow into his Divinity a little). Edited February 4, 2016 by Senor Feesh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Saze might have *snip*, and perhaps, investigate things outside of Scadrial where Sazed cant go - or atleast, he cant go without great sacrifices. Kelsier is good at convincing people. Gods even. And its not he and harmony are hostile to eachother as the book ends. It's probably ok, but maybe this should be spoilered? There might be people who read SH before BoM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Brandon recomends that you read bom first, but I did spoilered it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyodor Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I don't think it particularly matters. The final revelation about the identity of the Sovereign is a little more predictable but I don't think it would effect one's enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Honestly, BoM is as spoilery to SH as SH is to BoM. No matter which you read first, there will be spoilers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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