Dirigible

[Bands Spoilers] The Set and Trell

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You know, this is actually very convincing, though I didn't read under the spoiler tag. Nice work. Upvote.

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Actually, I'm no mathematician, but was reading all those codenames as synonyms to describe a collection of things (possibly things with a pattern to the).

An Array of ...

A Sequence of ...

A Set of ...

A Suit .. (Reaching on this one, but I'm thinking in terms of cards here)

The svrakiss(p?) is mentioned as the enemy of Jaddeth (most likely Dominion) so it stands to reason that perhaps they may be linked to Odium. I honestly am left guessing and with more questions as each book comes out, so many ideas/theories

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Upvote for you Dirigible, this is my favorite theory about who (or what) Trell is as well as how the Set is connected to it.

 

Unfortunately, for all we know Autonomy could have sent agents to Scadrial to whose methods are similar to Svrakiss to destabilize the planet and make way for stronger outside Shardic influences to come into play. The WoB you quoted tells us that something of non-Scadrial origin has been working in the background, and considering that Dominion has been Splintered I don't think a Splinter of Dominion would have enough strength to bring the fight to Harmony on Scadrial (even Odium, the strongest of the Shards, is terrified of Harmony). Maybe Autonomy recruited some Svrakiss from Elantris and is using them as autonomous agents in the background in the first stage of a potentially upcoming Shard Invasion to weaken Harmony's grip on Scadrial and the Set is just the locals who have turned because they think it's the winning side?

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Thought of a way it could be Odium, wasn't there a WoB or something that Rayse broke his shard a little. Could Trell be that splinter of Odium?

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Would it stand to reason that Kelsier learned how these new faceless immortals occupy a body and that's how he gained a new one? Either way, I'm getting the feeling that Kel is one of the grander characters of this whole thing. I'm thinking Kel and Hoid will be facing each other in the end. I want to say that he's using his unique existence to learn of all the cosmere and working with Harmony to position Scadrial as the top player in the main stage. I mean, so far has any other character shown they have what it takes to match Hoid in a battle of wits and cunning? Or maybe they work together? I dunno, I think there's a debate as to whether we trust Hoid as good or bad.

Do my thoughts even belong here? I dunno, but this is the thread that made me think of it.

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Would it stand to reason that Kelsier learned how these new faceless immortals occupy a body and that's how he gained a new one? Either way, I'm getting the feeling that Kel is one of the grander characters of this whole thing. I'm thinking Kel and Hoid will be facing each other in the end. I want to say that he's using his unique existence to learn of all the cosmere and working with Harmony to position Scadrial as the top player in the main stage. I mean, so far has any other character shown they have what it takes to match Hoid in a battle of wits and cunning? Or maybe they work together? I dunno, I think there's a debate as to whether we trust Hoid as good or bad.

Do my thoughts even belong here? I dunno, but this is the thread that made me think of it.

I've been thinking along the same lines, Nokomis. The pieces are all there. And thinking of Cognitive Shadows gaining physical bodies made me think of the army of Cognitive Shadows with red eyes over on Threnody...

But I find the Svrakiss idea really, really compelling. Already Elantris has a much larger influence over the cosmere than I realized.

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Summary: Trell is related to Dominion; the higher ranking members of the Set are Svrakiss from Sel.

I'd pretty much forgotten about the Svrakiss, Coppermind wiki has this to say about them:

The Derethi believed that they had the ability to take of the bodies of living men and control their actions.

Words of radiance spoiler ahead

Which sounds awfully like what happened to the Parshendi. So are the Svrakiss of Odium?

Edited by Lupis
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I'd pretty much forgotten about the Svrakiss, Coppermind wiki has this to say about them:

The Derethi believed that they had the ability to take of the bodies of living men and control their actions.

Words of radiance spoiler ahead

Which sounds awfully like what happened to the Parshendi. So are the Svrakiss of Odium?

I would say yes.  It was Dominions big enemy and the one that killed him.  Much more so than Devotion was.  To the people that think that Odium is too scared of Sazed to be Trell,  he's not creating a direct confrontation.  He's using pawns and diversions to give Sazed a slow death.

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Some meta-thinking: given the Wax & Wayne books were not in the original plan, I don't think that something of truly high cosmeric value will be resolved in the last book of this series.  What I think will happen instead is the revelation of who Trell is, what the heck is going on with red haze, and what the Set is up to.  Dealing with it and picking up the pieces will be left to the next three books.

 

I like the idea that svarkiss are a memory of what Odium  used to splinter Dominion and Devotion. This is consistent with Roshar.

 

A question I have is this. On Roshar, Odium appears to fight the war of attrition: won't stop until full Desolation (destruction of the world).  On Sel, Odium beat two Shards to a pulp and left. Why not genocide? 

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I like the idea that svarkiss are a memory of what Odium  used to splinter Dominion and Devotion. This is consistent with Roshar.

 

A question I have is this. On Roshar, Odium appears to fight the war of attrition: won't stop until full Desolation (destruction of the world).  On Sel, Odium beat two Shards to a pulp and left. Why not genocide? 

I would imagine that the Oathpact has something to do with why Odium is fighting the war of attrition, something in that is trapping him on Roshar and limiting how he can maneuver to splinter Cultivation who is also on Roshar. As for why he moved on after splintering Devotion and Dominion on Sel, I'm guessing it would be because his objective was to Splinter the Shards, not kill everything on the face of the planet (maybe that's the condition to get to Cultivation on Roshar?)

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I liked this idea very much. 

 

I did not believe some shard actually came to scadrial since Brandon said in a WoB that there are 2 shards in scadrial as preservation and ruin. I believe some kind of splinter was the traveller to scadrial and caused the unknown metal spike much like a spren/seon visiting scadrial should create a "talking"(check broadsheet with K and N) metal. 

 

There are some pretty evil people and religions in Sel already and their involvement can be counted as Scadrial bad guys without odium explanation.

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I would imagine that the Oathpact has something to do with why Odium is fighting the war of attrition, something in that is trapping him on Roshar and limiting how he can maneuver to splinter Cultivation who is also on Roshar. As for why he moved on after splintering Devotion and Dominion on Sel, I'm guessing it would be because his objective was to Splinter the Shards, not kill everything on the face of the planet (maybe that's the condition to get to Cultivation on Roshar?)

 

I think you may be onto something with your last comment. It seems like the thing that would hurt Cultivation the most would be destruction of what she, well,... for the lack of a better word, cultivates: which is life on Roshar.

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We have a recent WoB that Autonomy helped Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion. It seems natural that Odium would be paired against Devotion, and Autonomy would be paired against Dominion. So it's more likely that the svrakiss are related to Autonomy instead of Odium. This fits with Bleeder's actions which seem to fulfill the intent of Autonomy

Edited by Zyracksis
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We have a recent WoB that Autonomy helped Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion. It seems natural that Odium would be paired against Devotion, and Autonomy would be paired against Dominion. So it's more likely that the svrakiss are related to Autonomy instead of Odium. This fits with Bleeder's actions which seem to fulfill the intent of Autonomy

I'm still stuck on Bleeder telling Wax at the party that free will is nothing but an illusion. Why would she say that being a servant of Autonomy? Unless she meant free will under Harmony is an illusion... Ok, I think I just convinced myself she might have actually been serving good ol' Bav.

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I'm still stuck on Bleeder telling Wax at the party that free will is nothing but an illusion. Why would she say that being a servant of Autonomy? Unless she meant free will under Harmony is an illusion... Ok, I think I just convinced myself she might have actually been serving good ol' Bav.

 

  I think it is the latter. Bleeder is fighting the control Harmony exhibits over spiked creatures. She is not incorrect - kandra have an argument that their free will is an illusion - because it can be violated at any time by Harmony or by any powerful Soother.  If Southpolers have some duralumin/brass combo medallions, any shmuck and their grandmother can take a kandra over.   If you are an immortal being.... that must suck.  

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It was really weird seeing Nokomis post here and have a reply calling out that name.

 

I sense an imposter.

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We have a recent WoB that Autonomy helped Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion. It seems natural that Odium would be paired against Devotion, and Autonomy would be paired against Dominion. So it's more likely that the svrakiss are related to Autonomy instead of Odium. This fits with Bleeder's actions which seem to fulfill the intent of Autonomy

I thought the WoB was just that Odium would be willing to work with someone to accomplish it. Has there been a WoB since then that definitively confirmed this? 

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Well crap.  I've been thinking about making a Svrakiss post ever since finishing Bands and you beat me.  But I don't know that I agree with your conclusion that Trell= Dominion influence.  It seems more likely that whatever force is screwing with Scadrial also screwed with Sel enough that they developed a mythos and named them Svrakiss.

 

Here's a little more food for thought: there's some sort of conflict between Threnodites and the Ire.  And Shades have red eyes when they're in ragemode.

 

On the other side of the fence, here's a couple quotes.  Tenuous connection, but the wording is just strangely similar:

Bands of Mourning:

 

 

"The timeline will be accelerated, as you have requested," the Immortal said.

 

Mistborn:Secret History:

 

 

"The timetable is accelerated then," said Elrao, the man with the cup.
Edited by Pechvarry
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This may be the wrong thread, but I saw mention of Autonomy here and wanted to ask about this. I reveal my ignorance here, because I don't follow WoB as faithfully as I should, but I know next to nothing about Autonomy other that he exists and it's been much proposed that he's associated with Trell. But I have a couple problems with Autonomy, especially after Bands of Mourning, as I was wondering what others think...

 

In Shadows of Self, Bleeder used hemalurgy (via Trell?) to make some super zombies that attacked Wax and TenSoon

and

At the end of Bands of Mourning, Edwarn talks about what a loyal servant he's been, and the red-eyed Trellian responds, "You will be allowed to serve in another realm," just before he kills Edwarn.

 

While the Set seems to be all about gaining power to rule Scadrial, it's outward motivation is service to Trell, not throwing off Harmony's leash. It's more of a war from a competing religion, not a revolution of independence like I'd expect from something called Autonomy.

 

In my opinion, these things are the opposite of autonomy, the subjugation of self to the will of another. And I'll admit there is an argument to be made about how much independence (or autonomy!  ahem) a Holder has from its Shard's influence. So Bavadin (or possibly a new Holder?) could be using Autonomy's power to do things that Autonomy usually wouldn't. Mistborn alone has scenes that can be used to argue for or against such independence (Vin/Preservation v Rashek/Preservation). But by and large, Shards act in concert with their intent, which makes me want to rule out the Trell/Autonomy theory.

 

Though, I will admit Bleeder appears to be a large exception in my argument, because she doesn't outwardly care about Trell at all. Her motivation is all about giving people, especially Wax, autonomy (assuming that she really was in control and hadn't been made into some sort of Trellian (or Treligist?) slave herself). But I still take issue with some of her Trell-aided actions (spoiler #1) being possible for Autonomy.

 

As far as alternative Shards...

Dominion is a tempting alternative, since his (ahem) 'associates' on Elantris were uber-fundamentalists, with a very firm and unquestioning chain of command (like Set>Series>Sequence>Suit?). I'd think this was the Shard in question, if only Dominion hadn't already been splintered, and I can't imagine what it would take to reconstitute the pieces.

I'd even like Devotion (which could also be interpreted as willing subjugation, or worship). Except that it appears to conflict so much with what we know of Devotion from Elantris. And also was splintered.

 

What say you? Am I totally off-track with hating on the Autonomy theories?

Edited by Witless1der
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From the Coppermind/Brandon's Elantris Glosary: The Derethi believe that the souls of men who hated Jaddeth during life become become Svrakiss. The Svrakiss are considered to be evil entities barred from entrance into heaven and having the power to take over the bodies of living men and control their actions.

I feel obligated to point out that Skaze ≠ Svrakiss. The Skaze are believed to be Splinters of Dominion. The Svrakiss are almost certainly related to Odium (consider the similarity to the Thunderclasts and voidbringers in the SLA; namely, the red eyes).

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Well crap.  I've been thinking about making a Svrakiss post ever since finishing Bands and you beat me.  But I don't know that I agree with your conclusion that Trell= Dominion influence.  It seems more likely that whatever force is screwing with Scadrial also screwed with Sel enough that they developed a mythos and named them Svrakiss.

 

Here's a little more food for thought: there's some sort of conflict between Threnodites and the Ire.  And Shades have red eyes when they're in ragemode.

 

 

From the Coppermind/Brandon's Elantris Glosary: The Derethi believe that the souls of men who hated Jaddeth during life become become Svrakiss. The Svrakiss are considered to be evil entities barred from entrance into heaven and having the power to take over the bodies of living men and control their actions.

I feel obligated to point out that Skaze ≠ Svrakiss. The Skaze are believed to be Splinters of Dominion. The Svrakiss are almost certainly related to Odium (consider the similarity to the Thunderclasts and voidbringers in the SLA; namely, the red eyes).

 

Both of these are pretty good points; I forgot the Svrakiss might not be from Sel (though I think taking over bodies is an act of Domination). I am going to the Denver Calamity signing on Friday so I'll see then if I can get any information on Svrakiss then (if we've seen them in a Cosmere book; where they are from; maybe directly ask about the Set but that might be a RAFO). From my searching, it doesn't look like he's been asked much about them so I don't know if I'll get RAFOed.

Edited by Dirigible
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Both of these are pretty good points; I forgot the Svrakiss might not be from Sel (though I think taking over bodies is an act of Domination). I am going to the Denver Calamity signing on Friday so I'll see then if I can get any information on Svrakiss then (if we've seen them in a Cosmere book; where they are from; maybe directly ask about the Set but that might be a RAFO). From my searching, it doesn't look like he's been asked much about them so I don't know if I'll get RAFOed.

It could be that the Svrakiss are a combination of Dominion/Odium Investiture

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Personally, I'm going to stick with the "Odium & Autonomy" theory--after all, we keep hearing about "the men in red and gold." 

 

As far as I can tell, each Shard has a characteristic color associated with it; e.g, Odium is red (think Voidspren, Voidbringers, etc., whose magic presumably derives from him), Honor is blue (Stormlight), Preservation is white (the mists), Ruin is black (referenced a lot in M:SH)...

 

We haven't seen enough of Bavadin to know what "color" he is, but gold is definitely a possibility. We know from WoB that Rayse and Bavadin have allied before to make war on another Shardworlds, and with Odium apparently confined to Roshar for whatever reason, it would make sense he'd need some help to deal with the double-Shard Harmony. In my mind, all this points to an alliance between the two of them; Odium is providing much of the potency for the assault (the red haze around Scadrial that Sazed shows Wax), but Autonomy is generally overseeing it and working to destabilize the world as a whole (just think of Bleeder's actions, the independence movements brewing in the outer cities, etc.).

Edited by Three1415
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