[Secret History Spoiler] Whose body is it anyway?

[DreamEternal]

Well that's an incredibly disturbing thought. As for the scars, don't we see several times that they throb with pain in TFE, even though its years after he was in the Pits? Either

A) They're so ingrained into his identity that they magically appear on the body he hijacked.

He went (more)insane and carved scars into his new bod.

Maybe the possession can only last long if the body he takes and his cognitive self are either similar or closely connected, so he had to make those scars after, or more disturblingly before taking over.

Or he wouldn't feel like himself without them.

[Pathfinder]

So I recall a WoB somewhere that flowing blood was a big part of what made hemalurgy work. You pick the right bind point, you have the right intent, and you drive the spike through, bathing it in flowing blood. Since skeletons do not have flowing blood, can't spike a corpse alone. However if you pulled a Frankenstein dealie I could see that. Secondly, we do see a kandra use allomancy and feruchemy. Bleeder does it in Shadows of Self. 

[lDanielHolm]

Maybe the possession can only last long if the body he takes and his cognitive self are either similar or closely connected, so he had to make those scars after, or more disturblingly before taking over.

Or he wouldn't feel like himself without them.

 

I honestly feel it more likely that his Cognitive aspect enforced it, rather than he cut himself physically. Much like how Kaladin in Words of Radiance cannot rid himself of his scars.

[SarahfromVA]

I think my theory is that it's a little like forging, from Sel.  Kelsier puts his identity into an unkeyed aluminum metalmind and somehow crosses that over from cognitive to physical realm.  Then Spook fills a different metalmind with HIS identity, and then taps Kelsier's.  Then Kelsier's identity gets temporarily "forged" onto Spook's body -- scars and all, since that's part of his cognitive identity.  Then whenever he's ready for a break, they switch identities back.  (Or not.  Maybe Spook got tired of living and retired his body permanently over to Kelsier.)

 

This kind of arrangement would require a LOT of trust -- A LOT -- but it seems less convoluted to me than growing a whole new body.

 

(I could also be entirely wrong about how identity works/what is possible here, but it's fun to think about.)

[DreamEternal]

I think my theory is that it's a little like forging, from Sel. Kelsier puts his identity into an unkeyed aluminum metalmind and somehow crosses that over from cognitive to physical realm. Then Spook fills a different metalmind with HIS identity, and then taps Kelsier's. Then Kelsier's identity gets temporarily "forged" onto Spook's body -- scars and all, since that's part of his cognitive identity. Then whenever he's ready for a break, they switch identities back. (Or not. Maybe Spook got tired of living and retired his body permanently over to Kelsier.)

This kind of arrangement would require a LOT of trust -- A LOT -- but it seems less convoluted to me than growing a whole new body.

(I could also be entirely wrong about how identity works/what is possible here, but it's fun to think about.)

Or Spook discovered how to create identity spikes and fill them with Cognitive shadows, using this process to turn either a third party or himself into a half-broken hybrid of the original person and Kelsier.

Am I the only one who wants Spook to still be alive, even if merged with Kel?

[junior]

I am reminded of the scene in the first book when Kel goes to destroy The Pits of Hathsin. Before he does that though, he saves a single man from the pits. This man bore the scars that one gets after spending a long time searching for Atium geodes. This is the only individual that we know of with those scars that could have still been alive after Harmony ascended. Secret Histories talked a lot about "connection", and how it plays a big role in investiture, and applying ones soul/spirit. Maybe the events that the man went through in The Pits gave him a connection to Kel. As that's exactly where Kel snapped and awakened his Allomantic abilities, his link to investiture.

 

There were other survivors from the Pits.  Kelsier tells the man in question (Walin) that he killed most of the guards, and Walin should gather as many of the other prisoners as he can and leave.

 

 

As for where Kelsier got his current body, the only thing I'm convinced of is that it's not a Kandra body.  While Kandra need spikes, they don't typically need to have one of them placed through an eye.  I suspect that the eye spike is important, though I can't yet guess why.

 

I also suspect that when Spook retired as ruler of The Basin, he left with Kelsier.  I don't think they're sharing bodies, though, as I can't think of any good reason why Spook would agree to do that.

[ZeldaDad]

All I have to add is that we know Spook lived longer than normal as he's casually been mentioned to have ruled for over a century, so either Kel and he really did spike him enough to give him immortality, or something else happened, i.e. Spook gave Kel his body as he was dying, using a spike/spikes of Identity/Connection, etc to get Kel's shadow in Spooks body. But then I guess Kel would have a dying body on his hands.... Alright faulty line of logic, but it was mentioned more than once toward the end of Secret History that Kel was surprised by the level of Connection between the two so I'm optimistic about something involving Spook, whether they share the body or it's something else.

 

Some good ideas on here. I just finished the novella like 8 minutes ago so I'm still processing. Just wanted to throw in the Connection bit that stood out to me.

 

Edit: I see the problems with this now relating to the timeline mentioned in the other thread about this topic. Not sure exactly what I think now, but I really think it's Kel somehow.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Endra kin'Fox

[Tarion]

We know that a Kandra can create flesh that matches a person - We see it being done by MeLaan.  So from Kelsier's bones (which contain his DNA), it seems like a Kandra might be able to create enough flesh to fully recreate a person, at which point you just need to put Kelsier back in (Presumably with the eye spike).  

 

Sure, you'll be needing Feruchemical gold to put your body back together properly (Which, with the Cognitive aspect, would explain the presence of the scars), but that's apparently not a problem now.  

[Pathfinder]

Another poster in another thread made what I feel is a really good point/theory that could help with this. Some Survivorists ritually scar themselves in honor of Kelsier. Potentially Spook could have grabbed a very dedicated Survivorist that was more than happy to sacrifice themselves to bring his god back and he could have the scars on his arms already in homage to Kelsier. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Pathfinder

[RShara]

We know that a Kandra can create flesh that matches a person - We see it being done by MeLaan.  So from Kelsier's bones (which contain his DNA), it seems like a Kandra might be able to create enough flesh to fully recreate a person, at which point you just need to put Kelsier back in (Presumably with the eye spike).  

 

Sure, you'll be needing Feruchemical gold to put your body back together properly (Which, with the Cognitive aspect, would explain the presence of the scars), but that's apparently not a problem now.  

 

the problem with this is that MeLaan digested some of Marasi's flesh, then used it to make the tissue.  Kelsier's bones wouldn't have any flesh left, and I doubt the marrow would have been enough or viable.

[Bremen]

the problem with this is that MeLaan digested some of Marasi's flesh, then used it to make the tissue. Kelsier's bones wouldn't have any flesh left, and I doubt the marrow would have been enough or viable.

She did that to prevent rejection. That shouldn't be an issue when making a whole body.

[Pathfinder]

Didn't she have to eat a bit of flesh in order to accomplish that? Pretty sure that's why they never eat the bones of the corpse, they simply can't eat it. 

[RShara]

She did that to prevent rejection. That shouldn't be an issue when making a whole body.

It would, because the body flesh, muscles, organs, blood still need to match what will support the bones.  Once the bones are functioning again and have marrow and produce blood cells, they need to match what the body needs and expects.

[Bremen]

It would, because the body flesh, muscles, organs, blood still need to match what will support the bones.  Once the bones are functioning again and have marrow and produce blood cells, they need to match what the body needs and expects.

If there is still traces of Kelsiers marrow in the bones than a kandra could use that to create a body to match.  If there isn't then the kandra would just have to create marrow with the rest of the soft tissue.

[Pathfinder]

If there is still traces of Kelsiers marrow in the bones than a kandra could use that to create a body to match.  If there isn't then the kandra would just have to create marrow with the rest of the soft tissue.

True bone marrow samples can last months to years, assuming they are cryogenically preserved. 

[AscendantButtChugger]

I see this as a very obvious answer, that no one has put forward yet. But isn't it entirely possible that he chooses Marsh(his brother, Ironeyes, Death) as his new body? He got a sword through the neck from Elend(right before Vin defeated Ruin) possibly killing him. This would explain how in the vision from the coppermind, Wax sees regularly with one eye, and with the spike on the other eye. So, since it is a memory made by Kelsier, who is using Marsh's physical body, he would simply see normally, on the side that Marsh is missing an eye/spike but still, allomantically(like Marsh)on the other side, given that he is using Marsh's hemalurgically infused body. As for the scars, well ever since Kelsier refused to die, and started hanging with Leras(Preservation)... He first mentioned being able to see his own body(scars and all), even his clothes, just as he remembered them, as he kept is Spiritual and Cognitive self, and lost only his Physical being. Leras explains that that is how it will be, from now on, since he can't get his body back. Explaining why he sees the scars, when he looks at his own arms, but still sees partially through a hemalurgic spike, pierced in the body he uses that Spook helped him take: Marsh's. EVEN FURTHERMORE... The part that really convinces me, is that in the copper mind memory viewed by wax, the people dying are Malwish. Then Kelsier, in Marsh's body, told the old women to 'Survive', and then hypothetically proceeded to help the Malwish not only recover from extinction, but shared with them the technological advances he was able to discover concerning Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Concordently: in Bands of Mourning, you see evidence of this with the Malwish and their advanced, flying warships, different metallic medallions(similar to fabrials from Stormlight), a Malwish ancient temple sporting technologically advanced traps and Allomantic switches/locks, an unexpected DOUBLE DECOY of the Bands of Mourning(a stunt that only one as smartass and beguiling as Kelsier himself, could think up...remember the guy who always said 'There's always another secret'?...the exact same line that Waxillium heard right before dying, down in the cave next to the second decoy?)..and to finish it all off: a freaking STATUE built by the ancient Malwish depicting Kelsier, as they saw him: IN MARSH'S BODY with one hemalurgic spike in his head. Exactly how marsh looked when he died and the exact same image on the coin/copper mind that Wax drew Kelsier s memory from, at the end of BoM......how'd I do? I know, thanks. I could write this stuff.

[ZeldaDad]

I see this as a very obvious answer, that no one has put forward yet. But isn't it entirely possible that he chooses Marsh(his brother, Ironeyes, Death) as his new body? He got a sword through the neck from Elend(right before Vin defeated Ruin) possibly killing him. This would explain how in the vision from the coppermind, Wax sees regularly with one eye, and with the spike on the other eye. So, since it is a memory made by Kelsier, who is using Marsh's physical body, he would simply see normally, on the side that Marsh is missing an eye/spike but still, allomantically(like Marsh)on the other side, given that he is using Marsh's hemalurgically infused body. As for the scars, well ever since Kelsier refused to die, and started hanging with Leras(Preservation)... He first mentioned being able to see his own body(scars and all), even his clothes, just as he remembered them, as he kept is Spiritual and Cognitive self, and lost only his Physical being. Leras explains that that is how it will be, from now on, since he can't get his body back. Explaining why he sees the scars, when he looks at his own arms, but still sees partially through a hemalurgic spike, pierced in the body he uses that Spook helped him take: Marsh's. EVEN FURTHERMORE... The part that really convinces me, is that in the copper mind memory viewed by wax, the people dying are Malwish. Then Kelsier, in Marsh's body, told the old women to 'Survive', and then hypothetically proceeded to help the Malwish not only recover from extinction, but shared with them the technological advances he was able to discover concerning Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. Concordently: in Bands of Mourning, you see evidence of this with the Malwish and their advanced, flying warships, different metallic medallions(similar to fabrials from Stormlight), a Malwish ancient temple sporting technologically advanced traps and Allomantic switches/locks, an unexpected DOUBLE DECOY of the Bands of Mourning(a stunt that only one as smartass and beguiling as Kelsier himself, could think up...remember the guy who always said 'There's always another secret'?...the exact same line that Waxillium heard right before dying, down in the cave next to the second decoy?)..and to finish it all off: a freaking STATUE built by the ancient Malwish depicting Kelsier, as they saw him: IN MARSH'S BODY with one hemalurgic spike in his head. Exactly how marsh looked when he died and the exact same image on the coin/copper mind that Wax drew Kelsier s memory from, at the end of BoM......how'd I do? I know, thanks. I could write this stuff.

The problem with this, which was mentioned earlier though whether it was in this thread or the other one on the same topic I'm not sure, is that Marasi has seen Marsh/Ironeyes in Alloy and he was described as having both eyes spiked at the time. The question I posed to this was, could he have still only had one spike at the time of saving the Malwish people, and only later replaced it? If so then yes I definitely think Kel could be using Marsh's body, whether Marsh is still in it part-time or not. 

[AscendantButtChugger]

The problem with this, which was mentioned earlier though whether it was in this thread or the other one on the same topic I'm not sure, is that Marasi has seen Marsh/Ironeyes in Alloy and he was described as having both eyes spiked at the time. The question I posed to this was, could he have still only had one spike at the time of saving the Malwish people, and only later replaced it? If so then yes I definitely think Kel could be using Marsh's body, whether Marsh is still in it part-time or not.

Exactly. I thought about that, too. But yeah, came to the same conclusion. Because this seems like an alternate timeline that Sanderson spent a lot of time on directly after writing the first trilogy, then touched it up, before releasing. That definitely sounds like an easy continuity error to make. Also, an easy one to smooth over with some simple things like you just said. We've all seen crazier things happen, in the cosmere. I also went back and read the chapter of BoM where Allik describes The Sovereign to Marasi and I'm just like "Yep, yep. That was clearly Kelsier". Cause I mean there was like a whole paragraph where Wax and Marasi argued about Allik's story, since he claimed The Sovereign appeared to them some 10 yrs after when they figured Harmony came to be. And of course they thought Allik was referring to the LR. Who they knew to be dead.

[ZeldaDad]

Exactly. I thought about that, too. But yeah, came to the same conclusion. Because this seems like an alternate timeline that Sanderson spent a lot of time on directly after writing the first trilogy, then touched it up, before releasing. That definitely sounds like an easy continuity error to make. Also, an easy one to smooth over with some simple things like you just said. We've all seen crazier things happen, in the cosmere. I also went back and read the chapter of BoM where Allik describes The Sovereign to Marasi and I'm just like "Yep, yep. That was clearly Kelsier". Cause I mean there was like a whole paragraph where Wax and Marasi argued about Allik's story, since he claimed The Sovereign appeared to them some 10 yrs after when they figured Harmony came to be. And of course they thought Allik was referring to the LR. Who they knew to be dead.

 

Yes Definitely. I knew pretty quickly it wasn't TLR and I thought for a while it was Spook until it both turned out that the timeline didn't fit and that Secret History was about Kel. I'm 99% sure the Sovereign is somehow Kel, however he got back into the Physical realm.

[RShara]

If there is still traces of Kelsiers marrow in the bones than a kandra could use that to create a body to match.  If there isn't then the kandra would just have to create marrow with the rest of the soft tissue.

 

The kandra could convert what remained to tissue, but it can't create *more* tissue from it.  From what MeLaan said to Marasi, it's a 1-1 conversion--she used an equal amount of Marasi's tissue to digest and create a patch.

 

True bone marrow samples can last months to years, assuming they are cryogenically preserved. 

Well considering at one point, TenSoon had Kelsier's bones buried in a pile of ash (for the entire time he was with Vin, imprisoned, and so forth), I think it's safe to say this isn't the case.

[Pathfinder]

The kandra could convert what remained to tissue, but it can't create *more* tissue from it.  From what MeLaan said to Marasi, it's a 1-1 conversion--she used an equal amount of Marasi's tissue to digest and create a patch.

 

Well considering at one point, TenSoon had Kelsier's bones buried in a pile of ash (for the entire time he was with Vin, imprisoned, and so forth), I think it's safe to say this isn't the case.

Ash is hardly cryogenically preserved. Just because the bones are still around, does not mean the bonemarrow inside is still viable for what you are suggesting. 

 

edit: so it took rereading this thread to realize you weren't arguing that point lol. Sorry RShara!

Edited February 18, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata]

Am I the only one who think Kelsier doesn't need a "new body" ?

 

With enough Connection (maybe the Spike he has) He may be able to reform the link with the Physical Realm. Once He done, He may simply worldhop in the Physical like any other Worldhopper does. the "Cognitive Matter" of his body, will be converted in "physical matter".

 

Of course I don't know how actually he may "re-connect" himself with the Physical, but to me I didn't need of a new body.

[Rasarr]

Am I the only one who think Kelsier doesn't need a "new body" ?

 

With enough Connection (maybe the Spike he has) He may be able to reform the link with the Physical Realm. Once He done, He may simply worldhop in the Physical like any other Worldhopper does. the "Cognitive Matter" of his body, will be converted in "physical matter".

 

Of course I don't know how actually he may "re-connect" himself with the Physical, but to me I didn't need of a new body.

 

Sort of like becoming a spren, after a fashion? I could see that hapenning, with Investiture forming a new body for Kelsier (there's now a scene stuck in my head with the mists coalescing in the dead of the night to form Kelsier, complete with that smile of his...). As for how re-connecting may happen, perhaps his incessant meddling with Physical world could somehow naturally form some beginning of the Connection, which could then be strengthened by... I don't know. I'm not sure if we know enough about Connection in the Cosmere to be able to come up with something.

[RShara]

Ash is hardly cryogenically preserved. Just because the bones are still around, does not mean the bonemarrow inside is still viable for what you are suggesting. 

 

edit: so it took rereading this thread to realize you weren't arguing that point lol. Sorry RShara!

No worries!  Yeah, it's not likely that the bone marrow would still be viable after that

[Stormgate]

What if Spook lives? There's no reason to believe that it was Kelsier other than the whole 'Survive' bit. Perhaps Kelsier's body was Spook's?