jrh1524

Kandra Don't Have Souls?

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When Kandra die that's it, Oblivion?  When they die, they just separate into their component souls then move to the great beyond?

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This is referenced in Bands of Mourning.

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Are you saying that all Kandra are gingers?

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Ah, ok.  I haven't finished Bands of Mourning yet.  Thanks.

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Everything has it's own soul. Even Stick. There's no components to speak of here?

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If they didn't have a soul then presumably they wouldn't be able to be spiked, or do I have it wrong?

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Dosnt matter. They go the Beyond same as humans. Qualifier for a soul I'd say..

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The First Generation of kandra had souls at the beginning of the process, spikes need some spiritual matter to hang onto in the first place, or they just become mundane piercings (albeit rather hardcore ones), and Paalm specifically asked Harmony to look after Wax after she died.  They have souls.  

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All kandra have souls, because all kandra are made from mistwraiths, which were all feruchemists. It's just that they get elevated to Kandra status in batches (the generations).

 

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how more Kandra had been made, from existing mistwraiths. They're not breeding, are they?

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Not all mistwraiths were feruchemists. When Rashek Ascended, all feruchemists became mistwraiths, which then became their own species and had baby mistwraiths that were never human to begin with. Mistwraiths live and die (as per Sazed's epigraphs in Hero of Ages) as mindless animals. All kandra of Second or higher generations were never feruchemists to begin with.

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So, first generation kandra definitely have souls and any of the ones made from the original mistwraiths do too. Would it not make sense that creatures that have souls and create babies in their image will mean that said babies will have souls too?

 

Also, apart from the Paalm reference, is there anything to indicate that higher generation kandra also have souls?

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So, first generation kandra definitely have souls and any of the ones made from the original mistwraiths do too. Would it not make sense that creatures that have souls and create babies in their image will mean that said babies will have souls too?

 

Also, apart from the Paalm reference, is there anything to indicate that higher generation kandra also have souls?

 

The behavior of the Blessings (again, hemalurgic spikes need to have some soul to interact with, or they're just really hardcore acupuncture), and Mistwraith!MeLaan's narration (specifically that "some part of her knew this was wrong").  

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What happens to kandra when their spikes are removed? (That opening sounds harsh, but I was brainstorming and now I can't think of anything better. Hi everyone!)

 

Cognitively: MeLaan's segment in Bands implied that she retained some mental function after her spikes were removed - enough to perceive her surroundings, but with no context. Hence, you wouldn't get a Cognitive Shadow appear just for having their spikes removed (prior to reading this section, I would have assumed that a heavily deteriorating Cog shadow would have appeared in that Realm)

 

Physically: All the building blocks remain. Physical form destabilises without a will to hold it together, but it doesn't deteriorate.

 

Spiritually: All sense of Identity is quickly lost, but other than that I don't think we can understand much more.

 

With this line of reasoning, I'd put forward that the spikes form the Spiritual/Soul aspect of a kandra. They are, after all, fragments of someone else's spirit web.

 

So I think that the majority of kandra (outside of the 1st generation, as noted above) will not have anything that is capable of moving Beyond.

 

Paalm may be the exception here due to whatever in her system allowed her to use feruchemy. She may have developed a spirit web herself somehow for the spikes to react with, hence gaining enough of an aspect to stretch out past Harmony. I'm not entirely convinced by this though, as Sazed didn't say that she went Beyond, just that when she was there, she asked Him to look after Wax. She could have been a rapidly fragmenting Cognitive Shadow that disintegrated after making the request.

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The Blessings are hemalurgical spikes, which contain at least the partial essense of a soul. That can't be denied.

 

However, it does not necessarily follow the mistrwaiths do not have souls. Everything in the Cosmere has a soul. A stick has a soul.

 

My theory is that later generation mistwraiths (second and beyond) were born with animalistic, non-sentient souls (akin to the soul that a slug might have). The insertion of a Blessing expands this soul in the same way a human soul is expanded by taking up a Shard. The removal of a Blessing takes away this power, this causes the original mistwraith soul to "deflate". As its physical and cognitive aspect remain out of sync for longer and longer, aspects of its former identity as a kandra bleed away and it's cognitive aspect is "forced" to resemble its physical aspect, or body, more and more.

 

But if the connection is simply cut, by death, the cognitive aspect has nothing to pull it toward that animalistic state any longer, meaning Paalm's soul would not be trying to revert to an animalistic state as she talked to Harmony and went into the Beyond.

 

 

As for why using a different Spike if you don't already have your own is taboo, imagine if Vin took up Preservation, relinquished it, then took up Ruin. She wouldn't be the same, would she?

Edited by NovaSeeker
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We have a WoB out there that states that mistwraiths are basically people, but with a "cognitive block" that keeps them from gaining sentience - basically, there's something that's keeping them from reaching their full cognitive abilities.  It's reasonable to extrapolate from this that the Blessings somehow use Hemalurgy to bridge the gap between Physical and Cognitive Realms within the soul itself.

 

Mistwraiths have souls, they just have something stuck in there that short-circuits them, so to speak.  The spikes somehow fix that circuit and put everything running back correctly again.

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I was totally ready to dive back into this one, then I read your post, Kaymyth - you wrapped everything up far too nicely!

 

However, it does not necessarily follow the mistrwaiths do not have souls. Everything in the Cosmere has a soul. A stick has a soul.

 

I'm willing to play with this part though! The distinction that I'd make is that the stick would presumably not move on to the Beyond when consumed or destroyed. Matter would rearrange and form a new Cognitive aspect based on how it is perceived and how it functions. Otherwise the Beyond would be 99% stick, 1% other things.

 

I'm trying to get my head around Realmatic Theory - it's a great system for viewing even our world, I'm finding.

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Nice wrap-ups indeed!

 

This does bring up the followin question though: if everything in the Cosmere has a soul and, presumably, is supposed to travel to the Beyond (Kelsier, and possibly some Elantrians/Threnodites excepting), where then do the souls themeselves come from? From the Beyond as well?

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Nice wrap-ups indeed!

 

This does bring up the followin question though: if everything in the Cosmere has a soul and, presumably, is supposed to travel to the Beyond (Kelsier, and possibly some Elantrians/Threnodites excepting), where then do the souls themeselves come from? From the Beyond as well?

 

Whoa. Too deep. I was totally ready to be flippant and be all "Where do the physical things come from? What about the cognitive!?" Then I realised that the physical remains in the physical and cognitive remains with the 'person,' leaving the Spiritual aspect still super hazy and undefined. I don't think we know enough about this soul, and I actually don't think that it'll ever be properly defined unless there's a series of books structured like a talk show with Hoid interviewing the major players in the Cosmere and ends up sitting down with Adonalsium or the God Beyond for coffee, questions and random musical trivia.

 

From the perspectives of the mortal characters (including the Shardholders) I think it's better that they don't try to define it. Then, it'll be expressed in their words and we'll nitpick for years and find a thousand contradictions that could be explained with "damnation it, it's abstract! Shut up!"

 

Souls are weird.

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Well, human souls are weird. So the spren think anyway. Snap the Stick in half and he'd just be two pieces of Stick with two souls to match, and you can always glue him back together and you'll have a stick again (with some glue). Snap a person in half and you get something that's not-person.

Do not try to test this, of course :ph34r:

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