Natans

[M:Secret History Spoilers] Drifter

85 posts in this topic

Ok, So Hoid give a major beat down in Kelsier, and felt good with himself (kicking a defeated foe in the ground for good measure included), and this was grim in my book! .... so the number one cosmere Joker have some spunk in him.

The little bit about him being incapable of hurt someone got me thinking, Why someone would go to such lengths to impair this peculiar capacity in Hoid? 

Plus about, almost anyone cosmere aware like him very much?

Hoid could really be some kind of antagonist ?

Edited by Natans
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Mmmmm.  Well, the pain was Kelsier's mind thinking he should be in pain, rather than actual harm.  So technically, Hoid wasn't hurting Kelsier, Kelsier was hurting Kelsier :D  Hoid is very mysterious, and his motivations are unclear, so he really could be up to anything.  I tend to think he's generally trying for something "good" but that might not be actually "good."

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Well, beating up a dead guy is just all in good fun. What's the worst that could happen? :ph34r:

Edited by natc
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Maybe one of us misremembers, but didn't Hoid say that he didn't want to bother with hurting Kelsier? Presumably because it takes some work for him to do actual damage to a cognitive shadow while he himself is physically in the cognitive realm. I don't remember anything about an actual inability. 

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Hoid says he's ineffective at hurting people in Words of Radiance.

 

When talking to Shallan during one of her flashbacks

“No need for that,” the man[Hoid] said, settling onto a rock. “You needn’t fear me. I’m terribly ineffective at hurting people. I blame my upbringing.”

Edited by RShara
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Eeehhh... I think this leaves a lot of wiggle room. His words in this novella - "You don’t have a body, and I don’t have the inclination to actually injure your soul" - suggest it's simply a matter of whether or not he wants to hurt Kelsier. His words to Shallan... I don't have a good rational argument, but they read like something he would say without putting too much meaning into them. Almost an inside joke for anyone who knows about his "upbringing."

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Hoid strikes me as a good person, but ruthless, with a very specific purpose and goal. He's good at judging people and knew Kelsier would be an problem at the Well. Talking to Kel is pointless, they would go in circles all day, so the most direct action was a surprise attack and beat down (probably has some issues to work out too so maybe gets carried away). I can't find it now because I'm at work but in WoK he tells someone that he would let Roshar burn to suit his purposes or something similar.

Edited by ChimeraRuin
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Hoid strikes me as a good person, but ruthless, with a very specific purpose and goal. He's good at jusdging people and knew Kelsier would be an obstical at the Well. Talking to Kel is pointless, they would go in circles all day, so the most direct action was a suprise attack and beatdown (robbly has some issues to work out too so maybe gets carried away). I can't find it now because I'm at work but in WoK he tells someone that he would let Roshar burn to suit his purposes or something similar.

Yeah, he is focused on what he wants. The other thing to remember is he tried to get around Kelsier first, but Kelsier attacked (Hoid would later complement him on getting the drop on him, making me think he did not expect Kelsier to be able to intercept him). Hoid was also considerably attacked before he fought back, so he seemed to be just reacting to an obstacle that he had to get past.

 

Hoid might actually follow something like the Oath of Peace from the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, which reads:

 

Do not hurt where holding is enough;

do not wound where hurting is enough;

do not maim where wounding is enough;

and kill not where maiming is enough;

the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

 

So Hoid, based on his code or upbringing, may not be able to flat out murder someone or participate in random brawls, but if he is pushed against a wall with no other options, he will do what needs to be done.

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Yes but his inability to hurt people are something that runs deep, that a simple "I"m a good person so I will refrain hurt others".

Hoid, is literally unable to hurt (at least in the physical world ) someone. I remember some word of Brandon where he stated that Hoid, even with all his power, aren't very good fighter because he couldn't attack or some such.

Until now I put this was a quirk, but after he little showdown with Kelsier this begun to look super suspect to me. Someone  had the trouble to make hoid unable to hurt others, why?. This sounds like some precaution or punishment imposed to avoid him make the hell what he wanted.

So all his apparent benevolence could be him, like, let's say Ruin, poising himself to achieve his objectives, but without this limit he would be a good person ? Or we would kill hurt e kick pups to make his goals happen ?

 

Edited by Natans
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Even if he couldn't attack, that's not the same as defending (or teaching or sparring). And, you also assume the limitation was not self imposed.

Though your point makes me wonder: when did Hoid get this limitation?

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FWIW: from the book, page 31 (in the ebook):

 

 

"Apparently you already being dead means i can hurt you."

 

Hoid is surprised that he can hurt Kelsier; and his words imply that if Kelsier weren't dead, Hoid wouldn't be able to hurt him.

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I haven't really trusted Hoid yet. In my mind he could be an enemy.

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I got the impression that Hoid was waiting to try to take Preservation for himself. He has some goal, which I think is "good" and he's attempting to collect shards to see it through.

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More fuel for the "Its not that Hoid doesn't want to hurt people its that he CAN'T" pile:

 

 

"No, of course not. Lunu'anaki cannot hurt man. Is forbidden by other gods. Everyone knows this"

-Rock, WoR Chapter 46

 

As for Hoid's motives, Laras' words about him being and old friend who broke with them implies that he knew about and participated in the downfall of Adonalsium. I doubt "breaking God" was a spur of the moment decision, the Sixteen must have planned for the quest meticulously and if Hoid was someone they all knew he was aware of it about it and was probably part of the plan since he isn't the kind of person you can keep in the dark. Now? He may be having second thoughts, or maybe this was his game all along. We won't really know till Dragonsteel come out I guess.

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Eeehhh... I think this leaves a lot of wiggle room. His words in this novella - "You don’t have a body, and I don’t have the inclination to actually injure your soul" - suggest it's simply a matter of whether or not he wants to hurt Kelsier. His words to Shallan... I don't have a good rational argument, but they read like something he would say without putting too much meaning into them. Almost an inside joke for anyone who knows about his "upbringing."

 

Sounds like Hoid's complusion against violence only relates to the physical and spiritual consequences. He could attack Kelsier because his pain was only in his mind, much the same as what he does as Wit.

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Does anyone think Demoux is hunting Hoid on Roshar on Kelsier's orders?

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It seems like he's near impossible to kill but perhaps at the cost of being unable to kill himself. He cannot hurt/harm/kill anything's physical aspect, and in turn their spiritual aspect, but providing that someone exists solely in cognitive, where they are neither physical nor spiritual, he can? Interesting

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Hoid did hurt Kelsier some way when Kelsier found him in Fedrex.

 

That last beggar, sitting against an old brick wall . . . there was something about him. Kelsier backed up, touching the beggar’s soul again, seeing a vision of a man with hands and face wrapped in bandages, white hair sticking out from beneath. Stark white hair, a fact not quite hidden by the ash that had been rubbed into it.

Kelsier felt a sudden shock, a painful spike that ran up his fingers into his soul. He jumped back as the beggar glanced his direction.
“You!” Kelsier said. “Drifter!”
The beggar shifted in place, but then glanced another direction, searching the square.
“What are you doing here?” Kelsier demanded.
The glowing figure gave no response.
Kelsier whipped his hand back and forth, trying to shake out the pain. His fingers had actually gone numb. What had that been? And how had the white-haired Drifter managed to affect him in this Realm?
Edited by Mestiv
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"You don’t have a body, and I don’t have the inclination to actually injure your soul"

 

To me, that sounded more like "If I was going to hit you hard enough to actually hurt you, it would wreck your very soul - something I have no desire to do". Avoiding of unintended consequences rather than personal inability.

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Keep in mind that Drifter and Wit are the same man, 300 years apart. When Hoid comments to Shallan, we're missing about 300 years of context from when he puts the beat down on Kelsier.

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Hoid did hurt Kelsier some way when Kelsier found him in Fedrex.

I read that as passive anti-Cognitive self-defense. Hoid can't have things suggested to him by Cognitive Shadows because he has an effectual shield against them. And that shield hurts Cognitive Shadows. But it may have been active/intentional, sure.

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More and more I'm beginning to suspect that Hoid is not the "good guy" we perceive him to be.
Or rather, he's not the good guy from the viewpoint of all our protagonists across cosmere novels.

From this book we learn that he was present around the breaking of Adonaslium, but did not participate. In fact, it seemed as though he was on good terms with some of the original 16. But they decided to kill/rip apart Adonalsium, and he did not.

If Hoid is a "good guy" his goals should be simple to place (even if they still are wrapped in mystery/subtlety/obscurity,): 
Help people.

After all, almost all "good guys" break down to that simple point somehow.
Even complex, brilliant, world-spanning good-guys, whose plans are above comprehension, want to "do good."

This doesn't strike me as Hoid.

For my money, this guy is "doing good" as he sees it, trying to restore balance to the  Force  Cosmere as he sees it.
For someone who was there at the shattering, and has shown on numerous occasions not to be "aligned" with even the "good" Shards...
He's trying to restore Adonalsium. 
That means the entire cosmere, as it stands today, with all its planets and peoples with all their hopes and dreams, will stop existing. Restoration of Adonalsium means undoing everything that has happened since its fracturing. Destruction of the Cosmere. Or rather, Reparation of the Cosmere; taking all these broken bits and shards and fixing them so as if it had never been broken. The cease of Roshar, Scadrial, Nalthis, Taldain and all those protagonists we know and love.

Ohh, he thinks he's a good guy. Villains never believe they're wrong. But from our view? Self-serving, greater-good focused, ends-justify-the-means, Antagonist.

Edited by Zmann966
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He's definitely not the archtypical "good" guy.  My take on him is that he does want what's "best" for the Cosmere at large, but that he's certainly willing to go to any lengths to achieve that goal, a la "Ends justify the means."  He has said he's willing to let an entire planet of people burn in order to achieve his goals.

 

His goals could also be completely and ultimately good for him and no one else.

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Hoid remarks on his inability to hurt normal people after beating down Kelsier:

 

“That was unpleasant,” Drifter said, “yet somehow still satisfying. Apparently you already being dead means I can hurt you.” As Kelsier tried to grab his arm, Drifter slammed Kelsier down again, then pulled him back up, stunned.

 

Compare this to Rock in Words:

 

“Yes,” Rock said. “Not grey, like old man, but white— yet he is young man. He spoke with me on shore. Ha! Made mockery of my beard. Asked what year it was, by Horneater calendar. Thought my name was funny. Very powerful god.”

“Were you scared?” Lopen asked.

“No, of course not. Lunu’anaki cannot hurt man. Is forbidden by other gods. Everyone knows this.” Rock downed the rest of his second mug and raised it to the air, grinning and wagging it toward Ka again as she passed.

 

I doubt Hoid's inability to hurt people came about in the 300 years 'til Stormlight.

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I think Hoid is basically the same as Alendi´s first keeper ally. (I have managed to forget the name atm)

 

The one who first discovered Alendi, and put him on the path to the well of ascencion, only to decide it was a mistake and set Rashek to divert/kill him.

 

I think Hoid helped with taking down Adonalsium, he have since begun to regret it, or possibly he turned on the other 16 and attempted to stop them. Possibly he was intended to be one of the 16, and someone else was brought in to take his place as he tried to stop it instead.

 

He is if that is so, now searching for ways to put Adonalsium back together. He considers this important enough that he will not sidestep that even to try and save a planet full of people.   

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