[M:Secret History Spoilers] One-Eye Spike Man

[ZeldaDad]

Just one tidbit related to why it couldn't be Marsh because he's described as having two spikes. Do we have any idea when he replaced his second eye-spike? Could he have left it out for a while/couldn't find access to one for a while so, at the time, he only had one? This is not to comment on whether it would me Marsh or Kel driving Marsh's body, just wondering if that opens up the possibility of it being Marsh's body again.

[Wubdor]

Hoid was on Threnody, and of course Nazh got off Threnody somehow.

 

Are we sure about this yet? Last I checked Brandon stuck to Hoid not being in Shadows for Silence, despite Peter not believing him. Unless he was on Threnody in the past in general. (A theory I don't know of, in that case.)

 

On topic: I am in the Sovereign is Kelsier camp, and the Cognitive Healing makes a lot of sense.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Wubdor

[Bremen]

Are we sure about this yet? Last I checked Brandon stuck to Hoid not being in Shadows for Silence, despite Peter not believing him. Unless he was on Threnody in the past in general. (A theory I don't know of, in that case.)

 

On topic: I am in the Sovereign is Kelsier camp, and the Cognitive Healing makes a lot of sense.

From Peter on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Mistborn/comments/2sjqz5/is_hoid_in_shadows_for_silence_in_the_forests_of/

 

Yep. Hoid is in there. Brandon just forgot, but we talked about it and he remembered. Hoid had to have a reason for being there. And there is a reason.

 

[tbone]

I don't recall any mention of mist wraiths in this book. Is there anyway Kelsier manipulated one of them through a spike to eat his bones. I believe WOB stated his bones are still around

[Tasty Flesh]

I don't recall any mention of mist wraiths in this book. Is there anyway Kelsier manipulated one of them through a spike to eat his bones. I believe WOB stated his bones are still around

As far as we know, Mistwraiths no longer exist as a species. 

[tbone]

As far as we know, Mistwraiths no longer exist as a species.

Oh, ok thanks

Edited February 3, 2016 by tbone

[Bremen]

As far as we know, Mistwraiths no longer exist as a species.

Kandra should be able to procreate and make new Mistwraiths though.

[Pathfinder]

Kandra should be able to procreate and make new Mistwraiths though.

They would need to make new blessings, killing people with hemalurgy as per MeLaan. She stated they no longer wanted to do so, which is why they are numbered in the hundreds despite their long lives. 

[Bremen]

They would need to make new blessings, killing people with hemalurgy as per MeLaan. She stated they no longer wanted to do so, which is why they are numbered in the hundreds despite their long lives.

You do not need Blessings to make Mistwraiths, Blessings only come in if you want to turn those Mistwraiths into Kandra.

They should have extra Blessings lying around too, from the Kandra who choose to die. I don't know if they just haven't thought of this, or if it wouldn't work for some reason.

[Pathfinder]

You do not need Blessings to make Mistwraiths, Blessings only come in if you want to turn those Mistwraiths into Kandra.

They should have extra Blessings lying around too, from the Kandra who choose to die. I don't know if they just haven't thought of this, or if it wouldn't work for some reason.

This is specifically mentioned in bands of mourning. I have referenced the page and the quote below:

 

page 37 "you are misunderstanding the nature of these spikes" VenDell all but sputtered. "First, we do not have kandra Blessings lying around. The earrings you mention are crafted from old Inquisitor spikes, and have barely any potency to them. One might have been good enough for Lord Waxillium's little stunt six months ago, but they would hardly be enough to restore a kandra"

 

"Yeah" MeLaan said "If that worked, we'd have already used all those spikes to make new children. We can't; a kandra Blessing must be created very specifically." 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Bremen]

That quote is talking about Inquisitor spikes. I'm talking about the spikes left behind when a Kandra decides to die. They do say they don't just have Blessings lying around, so the question is why not? Every Kandra that dies should leave behind a set.

[Pathfinder]

That quote is talking about Inquisitor spikes. I'm talking about the spikes left behind when a Kandra decides to die. They do say they don't just have Blessings lying around, so the question is why not? Every Kandra that dies should leave behind a set.

Because there is another part that talks about interchanging blessings. That they are personal to the kandra when the kandra is created using the blessing, and that the only reason Tensoon was able to take in Oresuers was because they were in addition to his own. So basically I am given to understand once you use a Kandra blessing to turn a mistwraith into a kandra, lets call him kenny, then once kenny dies, those blessings are still kenny. its not like using brand new fresh spikes. Same kind of stands with koloss. The reason Human began acting the way he did, was because the koloss kept reusing spikes, and thereby getting more and more "human" soulishness in there. 

[Navy Seon]

It's obviously Kelsier, whether in his body, Marshs, or Spooks since Brandon just wrote a novella of Kelsier planning to come back to life. 

[natc]

This is specifically mentioned in bands of mourning. I have referenced the page and the quote below:

page 37 "you are misunderstanding the nature of these spikes" VenDell all but sputtered. "First, we do not have kandra Blessings lying around. The earrings you mention are crafted from old Inquisitor spikes, and have barely any potency to them. One might have been good enough for Lord Waxillium's little stunt six months ago, but they would hardly be enough to restore a kandra"

"Yeah" MeLaan said "If that worked, we'd have already used all those spikes to make new children. We can't; a kandra Blessing must be created very specifically."

It wouldn't really be children to them if the parents, as hemalurgic constructs, are basically of a different species.

How would you even spike the child into a kandra preemptively? They must have some way to sire normal mistwraiths for the hypothetical extra blessings they don't have lying around to be given to.

[Bremen]

Because there is another part that talks about interchanging blessings. That they are personal to the kandra when the kandra is created using the blessing, and that the only reason Tensoon was able to take in Oresuers was because they were in addition to his own. So basically I am given to understand once you use a Kandra blessing to turn a mistwraith into a kandra, lets call him kenny, then once kenny dies, those blessings are still kenny. its not like using brand new fresh spikes. Same kind of stands with koloss. The reason Human began acting the way he did, was because the koloss kept reusing spikes, and thereby getting more and more "human" soulishness in there. 

All we really know is that you can't mix spikes from different pairs.

 

I don't really like the idea that spikes become keyed to specific Kandra, as other hemalurgic spikes don't work that way.  Spikes grant an ability, and they aren't picky about who they grant it to.

 

There could be side effects to reusing spikes, but making the recipient more human seems unlikely to deter the Kandra.

 

idk, there obviously is a reason they don't do it, one of the above could be it, without more information it is impossible to say

 

They must have some way to sire normal mistwraiths for the hypothetical extra blessings they don't have lying around to be given to.

Yes, this heavily implies that getting Mistwraiths to spike is not the problem. 

[theuntaintedchild]

I'm in that the Sovereign are Kelsier train.  

How he did't we don't know, but by what I remember of Cosmere cure power theory, when someone cures himself (in the most extremes case at least) he are, in true, returning his body to a previous "cognition state" or the be more precise he return his body to the "cognitive image that he had of himself" or some such.

This is very peculiar because it can create a situation where one person is able to cure a serious wound but not a little one if that little wound are part of the image that he had of himself. Ex: Kaladin, until now, wasn't able to cure his forehead scar. And Lopen, that in my eyes have a very strong image of himself was a being a complete and functional  was able to cure a lost arm in his childhood. AUTO IMAGE are everything here.

The scar in the Sovereign arms are, to me, a indicative that Kelsier when hijacked the physical realm did't using a similar method, and the auto image of his arms being  scared carried over to new "new body".

I suspect that they used hermalurgy in a dead body to connect Kelsier cognitive self with this body, and when this body received Kelsier cognitive and spiritual webs, the body "turned" in the image  that Kelsier had of himself minus the spikes he used to bind everything together. Kind a forgery, the new body react to make sense of the new cognitive aspect.

Well this is my opinion at least=)

 

I was pretty convinced it was just Kelsier back from the dead somehow. (I was just going to accept it.) Then you came along and logic-ed it into making sense. You did great in picking out a theory like this, and Mr. Brandon Sanderson did great in creating a magic system that is so much like science one doesn't have to just accept facts. 

[+tabitreader]

Kelsier, Spook, or Marsh aren't going to care a bit for the Southern Scadrial people.

We do know that the red-eyed Trell Kandra of Red and Gold do.

My money is that the Sovereign is one of these guys and playing a very lengthy generation game that is designed to empty Scadrial of human life and make off with 2 perhaps 3 Shards.

Looks over at Odium during Stormlight Eras 1 and 2 intermission.

Please save us all Marasi-Harmony for Mistborn Era 3.

[Landis963]

Kelsier, Spook, or Marsh aren't going to care a bit for the Southern Scadrial people.

 

The massive advance in technology caused by the Southern Scadrians allying with Elendel was enough of a disruption to the Set's plans to cause the Trell "Kandra" to change their plan from long-term (control Scadrial from the shadows for hundreds of years) to short-term (kill 'em all).  I don't see why Odium or any of his servitors would care about a group of soon to be popsicles at the south pole.  Even if first contact with a technologically superior nation was supposed to erupt in war, aren't there much simpler ways to cause war in Elendel?  I mean, the nobility of the city have done a great job alienating the Roughs settlements, all you need to do is ratchet up the pressure in both places until war breaks out.  You don't need aliens to do that (human or otherwise).  Also, Marsh and Spook would definitely care about people freezing to death because of their actions.  Kelsier, on the other hand, I'm not so naive as to think he'd drop everything and help the SoScads without question.  He'd think up all the angles first, and think of it like any other con.  

[Isaiah Zayth]

 

 

"So basically I am given to understand once you use a Kandra blessing to turn a mistwraith into a kandra - let's call him Kenny - then once Kenny dies, those blessings are still Kenny's."

 

I am TOTALLY on board with the idea of Kenny the Kandra. Like... 1000% in favor of this actually happening.

 

The idea that the Sovereign isn't someone influenced or linked to Kelsier is very hard for me to believe. There is too much specific foreshadowing and hint-dropping by Brandon to make it anyone else. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that aspects of other people aren't present in this re-born Kelsier. I strongly believe that both the Kandra and an outside magic system are involved in this re-birth, though I'm nearly 100% certain that Hemalurgy is the foundation that bridges the gap. I guess it could be possible the body Kelsier ends up using is Spooks... but I think that seems a little too... simple. And, as others have pointed out, the timelines don't match up.

 

The ending of Secret History makes it clear that Spook is definitely involved in Kelsier's return to the Physical Realm, and we know that Harmony knows there is a way for Kelsier to do it, but won't tell him (or, at least, wouldn't at that time). We also know that Spook wrote a rather detailed book on AT LEAST the use of Hemalurgy and that this decision was not appreciated by Harmony. I think it makes a lot of sense that what he wrote down was heavily influenced by his success in helping Kelsier return to the Physical Realm. Spook and Kelsier realized the importance/danger that Hemalurgy presented to the Cosmere and authored a book preserving its use so that Harmony and the Kandra didn't have a monopoly on it.

 

Back on the topic of the Sovereign's identity and how he seems different from the Keliser we know in TFE. We have to remember that Kel did Ascend for a short time (even if it was only with a fraction of Preservation's power) and that we know this event changes people. He also received a massive slap in the face (quite literally, thanks to Hoid) by the knowledge that the Cosmere exists. On top of all that, his conversation with Vin just before she goes Beyond reveals something about himself that he never truly accepted: he is very selfish. I think his whole reasoning behind returning to the physical world starts to change after that conversation. Before, it was all about him either being bored, missing his metals, or some other selfish reason. Now, I think his reasons are based more on helping the cosmere survive whatever is coming. Yes, he wants to discover secrets. Yes, he eventually regains some level of power. Yes, he sets himself up as a king and allows himself to be called the "Sovereign." These are all Kelsier things to do (and definitely NOT Marsh things), but I think that one word he speaks at the end of BoM underpins it all: Survive. He is all about surviving and helping others do the same; before he did it for himself, but now it seems plausible that he would do it because, deep down, he wants to be like Vin: selfless.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Isaiah Zayth

[theuntaintedchild]

Someone on this forum I('m not entirely sure who it was) brought it to light that Set, Sequence, Suit...could all be playing card terms. Kelsier states in the Secret History that he was always good at card tricks. Perhaps Kelsier is controlling/leading the Set. 

[Pathfinder]

All we really know is that you can't mix spikes from different pairs.

 

I don't really like the idea that spikes become keyed to specific Kandra, as other hemalurgic spikes don't work that way.  Spikes grant an ability, and they aren't picky about who they grant it to.

 

There could be side effects to reusing spikes, but making the recipient more human seems unlikely to deter the Kandra.

 

idk, there obviously is a reason they don't do it, one of the above could be it, without more information it is impossible to say

 

Yes, this heavily implies that getting Mistwraiths to spike is not the problem. 

The only hemalurgic creation we see that reuses spikes to create new hemalurgic creations are koloss, and that doesn't go as planned as the subsequent generations are altered due to the already existing torn pieces of souls in the spike. Koloss are brute forces not intended for higher thinking. Their only purpose is to kill and be good at killing. Kandra and Inquisitors are entirely different matters. We have never seen on screen or mentioned off screen a kandra or inquisitor created with used hemalurgic spikes. So I believe based on the quotes from Shadows of Self, and Bands of Mourning that you could not use blessings already keyed to a kandra to make a brand new kandra from an existing mistwraith without there being some issues at the very least. 

[emailanimal]

Someone on this forum I('m not entirely sure who it was) brought it to light that Set, Sequence, Suit...could all be playing card terms. Kelsier states in the Secret History that he was always good at card tricks. Perhaps Kelsier is controlling/leading the Set. 

 

 Like I was saying elsewhere, we are running out of secret societies for Kelsier to found and lead. The other theories suggested that he founded the 17th Shard and/or the Ghostbloods.

 

  If one reads Brandon's PS to Secret Histories, one gets a distinct idea that what Kelsier is doing around the time of Wax and Wayne books is about the same as what he was doing around the time he took up Preservation - snooping on people, trying to convince them to do something his way.  But here is a very simple thing. Kelsier loves Scadrial.  So, "Kelsier = Trell", or "Kelsier is the leader of a group of people plotting something on a completely different planet", or "Kelsier wants to kill Sazed, destroy the planet, and take up every single Shard because he wants to finally be able to kick Hoid's chull", or "Kelsier will be the chief villain in the next book(s)" theories ignore that very simple fact.

 

 He may have been a very effective agent of Ruin for a long time. But we got inside his head in Secret History. That should be enough for us to understand that finding a way to save five peoples on the South Pole is totally a Kelsier thing, while stealing Allomancers to breed a Mistborn is not.

 

Yes, Keliser is the effing Chuck Norris of the Cosmere. Tom Waits's Black Wings may as well have been written about him. And after all Shards successfully succumb to whatever clever plan Hoid has, Kelsier may very well be the most powerful entity in Cosmere.  But if anything, he is the guy (judging by the pattern) who, if he ever met Trell would try to punch him in the face, not the guy to run Trell's franchise on Scadrial... Please....

[Bloodfalcon]

My reasons aren't nearly as story based, so they are definitely the most debatable, but I just can't see Sovereign being anybody but Kelsier after Brandon's writing toward the end of Bands and Secret History. The big Bands reveal is supposed to be that Kelsier is back alive, followed by Kel implying that Sazed is lying (when he says Kelsier can't get back to the Physical Realm), and then there is an entire Afterword section telling fans that Kelsier is going to have more adventures and is far from finished. I know we're reading an author that's got some complex twists to throw around, but that's all a little direct to be dangled in front of us and then pulled away. Personally I'm open to any of these possibilities being extremely entertaining, but that was my feeling. 

I can't see Kelsier experimenting with any Hemalurgy for his personal uses, but I could totally see a reunion scene with Marsch where they get over some things and then Marsch gives Kelsier one of his own eye spikes. Maybe Marsch just knows where some abandoned spikes are, as were mentioned to be in Kredik Shaw in Secret History. Or maybe Spook goes and collects those spikes, puts them in a host body, and Kel is put together like some kind of (better quality) koloss? As mentioned above, his scars are a part of his identity and could appear on any host body. 

What concerns me most about any of this is Sovereign's reputation from the Southerners. It's implied (heavily) that Sovereign would casually shoot a coin through someone's skull if they spoke out of turn. Reeeeeealllly hope that's not Kel. Or Spook or Marsch. 

[Treamayne]

The only hemalurgic creation we see that reuses spikes to create new hemalurgic creations are koloss, and that doesn't go as planned as the subsequent generations are altered due to the already existing torn pieces of souls in the spike. 

SH does mention, at the Inquisitor funeral, that the spikes are removed and stored in blood so they lose less charge and can be granted to other Inquisitors. Also, wasn't it also implied in WoA (when Marsh and Sazed go to the Inquisitor temple) that spikes were re-used there?

 

I'll try to look up the actual references when I can next get to my eBooks.

[timasp]

I'm all about Spook still being alive, but the timing is off. I think that it makes more sense that eye-spike man is Kelsier. He has the scars, and there's no mention of Spook having an eye-spike at any point in his rule. If my understanding of the timeline is correct, the visit to the south would have been right in the middle of Spook's rule, and I feel it would have been hard to hide a giant spike in his face.

 

Also with what Wax understands at the end of BOM.