Hoid

[Lilamal]

Post anything about Hoid here. Theories, questions, interesting facts, where he has been, what he was doing, anything at all as long it is relevant to Hoid.

[iBambam]

Well this is a large can of worms you are opening up my friend. I'll just start off with my favorite quote from Hoid.

"And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen."

Edited January 21, 2016 by iBambam

[icy1155]

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/hoid

[The Sovereign]

Typically, I would go nuts and start quoting WoB's but since there are literally hundreds pertaining to Hoid I will instead let ya'll investigate them for your selves. Enjoy!

[Rasarr]

A Hoid theory thread? Well, I have a theory that's been going 'round my head for a while... Well, it's more like a wild guess, but still.

 

We know that all the original Shardholders come from Yolen (which is also the place Adonalsium comes from) and we know that Hoid knew all of them personally - hell, he had drinks with Tanavast/Honor. Anyway, something, for some reason, was trying to "kill" Adonalsium. I suppose, then, that Hoid and most, if not all of original Shardholders were trying to stop Adonalsium from being killed and thus all were in one place when they failed and Adonalsium "died".

 

Which is when the "wild guess" part of the theory comes in: Hoid, in attempt to keep Adonalsium from dying, tried to take it in himself, much like Shardholders take in Shards. Only it turns out that human body is kind of a poor holder for an Enormous Cosmic Power, and as a result Adonalsium shattered and its Shards left Hoid, hitting first sentient creatures they've encountered - which, in this case, would be Hoid's Adonalsium-saving crew, AKA the original Shardholders.

 

What would happen next was that something to do with shattering had the Shardholders split all in different directions, and left Hoid as universe's most... well, how would you call it, biggest?... at any rate, the "most" Sliver, which would explain his immortality, his ability to obtain different magic systems and his astonishing knowledge of everything hapenning in the Cosmere.

 

...does that make the slightest amount of sense? 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Rasarr

[Lilamal]

Yes, it does make sense. I hadn't considered that, but it fits most of the facts we know fairly well. Storms, it almost fits too well. But why is the Seventeenth Shard after him then? (Assuming that Hoid was the one that wrote the letters, which is still up for debate.) The main problem I can think of off the top of my head is that Brandon has confirmed that Hoid is not a Sliver.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Lilamal

[The Invested Beard]

Yes, it does make sense. I hadn't considered that, but it fits the facts we know fairly well. Storms, it almost fits too well. But why is the Seventeenth Shard after him then? (Assuming that Hoid was the one that wrote the letters, which is still up for debate.)

 

It's pretty commonly accepted that the letters are a correspondence and only one was written by Hoid. As for why the Seventeenth Shard is after him there are multiple discussions pertaining to theories but no real answers from any official source as of yet.

[Stormgate]

I am hesitant about the part where Adonalsium Shattered inside Hoid because Hoid held it, but everything else is right on with what I was going to post anyway. I might still make another thread detailing my theory on the 'deflated balloon' analogy that Sanderson often makes when referring to Slivers.

[KaIadin]

I can't remember the exact quote, but here it is:

 

Hoid: One day there was a Bunny Rabbit and a Chick.

Kaladin: A ..baby chicken and a what?

Hoid: Oh that's right, let me adapt the story. One day there was a 17 legged crab and a piece of slime.

[DSC01]

The 17th Shard are almost certainly after Hoid because he violates their strict non-interventionist policy at every opportunity, and they are very worried that he will do some real damage. As Frost (probably) says:

 

 

Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain. 

 

He continues:

 

...it seems to me that all things have been set up for a purpose, and if we—as infants—stumble through the workshop, we risk exacerbating, not preventing, a problem. 

 

Now, as to Hoid's role in the Shattering, which we can at present only make the wildest of guesses about, I don't think it had anything to do with preventing Adonalsium's death. I think, based on The Liar of Partinel, that Adonalsium was already dead (I know the sample chapters aren't canon, but I would imagine that the conditions described therein--or something similar--will persist in whatever ends up being canon). Conditions are bad in The Liar of Partinel. The level of technology is like ancient Sumeria, maybe. The environment is pretty much apocalyptic--I'd say nearly as bad as Scadrial after Ruin is freed, if in a very different way. 

 

And that, I believe, is why Adonalsium was Shattered. With no consciousness to guide the power, things were going haywire. Maybe it was too much for one human to take the whole thing, and they had to break it up. Maybe they accidentally Shattered it, trying to create cracks to let a consciousness in, similar to how humans need cracks in their spiritweb to let Investiture in.

[hoidhunter]

After reading the sample chapters of LoP on Brandon's website...I thought something similar at first.  But there are a few problems with the "Adonalsium already shattered by the beginning of LoP" theory.

 

1. We have a WoB somewhere that states that Hoid was present at the shattering.

2. In LoP, they refer to dead gods...plural.

 

so...I think something else is going on in LoP Yolen.

[DSC01]

I don't think Adonalsium was already Shattered. I think that whoever/whatever served the purpose of Shareholder for Adonalsium was dead, but the power itself was whole.

[KaIadin]

I think the power opposing Adonalsium was the white stuff (forgot the name) was infecting everything.

[DSC01]

Fain life. Yeah, me too. It's also part of why I think Adonalsium was dead. Like a spiritual mold or something.

[iBambam]

Or whatever power source was behind the Fain. I still think there is another being that opposed Adonalsium and had a power at least of equal strength that eventually killed the person holding Adonalsium, or actually shattered it as well. Now, where this other power is in the Cosmere right now? No clue.

[The Sovereign]

1. We have a WoB somewhere that states that Hoid was present at the shattering.

 

Relevant WoB:

 

Interview: Mar 17th, 2012

Writing for Charity Signing (Verbatim)

Question

How about a confirmation one? We have a secondhand report from Miyabi actually, that says that Hoid was at the Shattering of Adonalsium. Was he there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he was.

Tags

cosmere, adonalsium hoid, shattering,

 

Regarding Rasarr's theory, this WoB suggests that something shattered Adonalsium, while this is admittedly an assumption, the context implies it was done deliberately. I don't think it is very likely that Hoid took in the power and that shattered it.

 

Relevant WoB:

Interview: Nov 16th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - askthepaperclip (Verbatim)

askthepaperclip

If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?

Brandon Sanderson

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

askthepaperclip

Was there a force determining which way it shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes!

Tags

adonalsium, shards,

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Iron Eyes

[Rasarr]

Hm, so my theory did have some merit... Apart from this little part about Hoid not being a Sliver. Eh, well, I'm not as well-versed with the WoBs as I probably should be. 

 

As for the "dead gods" of Liar of Partinel, perhaps Adonalsium was perceived as some sort of single, multi-faceted deity? Sort of like Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma in Trimurti concept, who were all considered to be three aspects of a single deity, yet remained separate in "public consciousness" (people who know more about this, feel free to correct me). This would explain how Adonalsium could shatter into such clear-cut pieces - it already had sixteen distinct "faces", but they were bound together and Adonalsium's death severed those bonds, leading to shattering. 

 

As for Hoid not being a Sliver, yet having such great abilities, and the Fain life already killing Adonalsium/Yolen by the time Liar starts - perhaps the Sixteen+1's mission was to somehow "kickstart" Adonalsium back to life. They failed, shattering it instead, and while the Shards hit the original Shardholders, Hoid got washed over by the energy released with it or something along those lines.

[Stormgate]

I would like to reference Dr. Who.

 

The story is about a clever man who is older than he seems. He travels different worlds, is very hard to kill, doesn't like hurting people, and wherever he goes, he makes people better. He doesn't always go where he necessarily wants to, but he always goes where he needs to. He is very clever and the number of people who praise him versus those who curse him are about even. He also has a dark past, and (at one point) is/was chased by a group of people who also can travel to other worlds and they have a policy of non-intervention, which he flagrantly breaks. Also, we don't know his real name.

 

The Doctor is Hoid. Perhaps an alternate dimension Hoid, but Hoid.

[The Invested Beard]

I would like to reference Dr. Who.

 

The story is about a clever man who is older than he seems. He travels different worlds, is very hard to kill, doesn't like hurting people, and wherever he goes, he makes people better. He doesn't always go where he necessarily wants to, but he always goes where he needs to. He is very clever and the number of people who praise him versus those who curse him are about even. He also has a dark past, and (at one point) is/was chased by a group of people who also can travel to other worlds and they have a policy of non-intervention, which he flagrantly breaks. Also, we don't know his real name.

 

The Doctor is Hoid. Perhaps an alternate dimension Hoid, but Hoid.

 

Yep this is good stuff. Upvoted.

[iBambam]

I would like to reference Dr. Who.

The story is about a clever man who is older than he seems. He travels different worlds, is very hard to kill, doesn't like hurting people, and wherever he goes, he makes people better. He doesn't always go where he necessarily wants to, but he always goes where he needs to. He is very clever and the number of people who praise him versus those who curse him are about even. He also has a dark past, and (at one point) is/was chased by a group of people who also can travel to other worlds and they have a policy of non-intervention, which he flagrantly breaks. Also, we don't know his real name.

The Doctor is Hoid. Perhaps an alternate dimension Hoid, but Hoid.

That is absolutely accurate, and makes me want to watch doctor who. I've never seen a single episode, but put it like that, and I may watch it now.

[Kaymyth]

I would like to reference Dr. Who.

 

The story is about a clever man who is older than he seems. He travels different worlds, is very hard to kill, doesn't like hurting people, and wherever he goes, he makes people better. He doesn't always go where he necessarily wants to, but he always goes where he needs to. He is very clever and the number of people who praise him versus those who curse him are about even. He also has a dark past, and (at one point) is/was chased by a group of people who also can travel to other worlds and they have a policy of non-intervention, which he flagrantly breaks. Also, we don't know his real name.

 

The Doctor is Hoid. Perhaps an alternate dimension Hoid, but Hoid.

 

There are also sufficient similarities to suggest that Adonalsium was a Time Lord artifact. 

[KaIadin]

Found the original quote.

 

 

Hoid:"I will tell you one [a story for children], to get you in the mood. A bunny rabbit and a chick went frolicking in the grass together on a sunny day.

Kaladin: "A chick...baby chicken? And a what?"

Hoid:Ah forgot myself for a moment, Sorry. Let me make it more appropriate for you . A piece of wet slime and a disgusting crab thing with seventeen legs slunk across the rocks together on an insufferably rainy day. Is that better?"

Edited January 23, 2016 by KaIadin StormbIessed

[Lilamal]

 

I’ll address this letter to my “old friend,” as I have no idea what name you’re using currently. Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead? And do you no longer hide behind the name of your old master? I am told that in your current incarnation you've taken a name that references what you presume to be one of your virtues.

The author of the 2nd Letter said "current incarnation" when talking to Hoid. I think that it was written while he was still posing as the King's Wit, considering the content of the quote above. Does current incarnation mean that he had other incarnations? Maybe he Returned? More than once? And is Hoid his name or his master's name?

[Lirins hand]

I've always thought the number of legs was interesting.  Even on Roshar, all creatures have bi-lateral symmetry, don't they?  Even numbers of appendages?  And why 17?  Just from memory, most creatures seem to have 6-8 legs (only the chasmfiend had a bunch more at 18).  

An attempt to ferret out if Kaladin is aware of the 17th Shard?  Dropping a hint for him to remember?  Just a weird anomaly since he didn't start out with a 3 legged rabbit or something similar.

[DSC01]

The author of the 2nd Letter said "current incarnation" when talking to Hoid. I think that it was written while he was still posing as the King's Wit, considering the content of the quote above. Does current incarnation mean that he had other incarnations? Maybe he Returned? More than once? And is Hoid his name or his master's name?

 

Hoid was his master's name, and he started using it. The sample chapters from Liar of Partinel are not canon, but they do tell us something about the original Hoid. I expect that it is some version of what the original Hoid was like, even if a lot of details change by the time a canon version of the story is released. There's nothing about how the Hoid that we know took on his master's name, as I recall.

 

I think that the "incarnation" word choice is a reference to Hoid constantly changing the character that he is playing and is not supposed to be literal. It would be tough for him to literally be reincarnated repeatedly, as he is almost impossible to kill in the first place.