A Confused Guide to Selish Magic

[Confused]

Following is analysis and interpretation of how Selish magic came to be and how it currently works.

 

1. Aona and Skai were lovers pre-Shattering. They continued their relationship post-Shattering, as Shards (presumably on a more Platonic basis, both literally and figuratively).
2. Pre-splintering, Dominion’s investiture provided access to the magic, wherever on Sel one was. This is the “forms programming” aspect of Selish magic that MISTER Sanderson has described. Dominion thus gave Selians (?) the cognitive commands necessary to use his and Devotion’s power – just like the control freak you’d expect someone named “Dominion” to be.
3. I speculate that the power, even then, was similar to the Dor – a combination of Dominion’s and Devotion’s investiture reflecting their relationship, their magic intertwined and combined. It might even have been the Dor itself, since (using the Roshar precedent) splintering doesn’t appear to affect a Shard’s power as much as its mind, the cognitive means of directing the power.
4. I further speculate that the solid state of Dominion’s “body,” its latent Physical Realm power, existed on that moon that Shai believes disintegrated and fell to Sel to become, among other things, soulstone. (Shai…Skai…Skaa...coincidence?)
5. I believe that Devotion’s solid body was located in or near the chasm that the earthquake created. I base this conclusion on various characters exclaiming, “Domi below.” Those statements suggest that Devotion’s worshippers (ignore the name for a moment) thought she resided in the planet.
6. Odium now splinters the two of them. Though this is “taxing” on him, splintering these two Shards is probably easier than any other pair, because they had created a single magic system from their investiture – it was like splintering a single Shard.
7. Splintering caused Dominion’s body to collapse into meteors falling over Sel. Everywhere his investiture fell, a NEW FORM for accessing the magic developed. Forgery, Bloodsealing, Dakhor, ChayShan all provide their user access to the Dor.
8. AonDor may be the same, with the Aons providing the cognitive link to the Dor also coming from Dominion, but I’m uncertain. I think Arelon may have always been the place where Devotion was strongest, because of the proximity of her Physical Realm investiture at the chasm. Thus, contrary to everywhere else on Sel, practitioners of Devotion’s magic may have accessed the Dor using Devotion’s own commands.
9. The Dor itself may be an example of mandate-meshing, two magics merging into a third magic, rather than a mere mixture of each. Given the emotional closeness of Dominion and Devotion, I would expect their minds/cognitive investiture to mingle in the Cognitive Realm, changing each of them into something else. These changes may explain why Areloners (?) worship “Domi” and why “Omi” is the Aon for love.
10. An open question is why Dakhor forms of Dor magic didn’t appear until about 300 years before the events of Elantris. I speculate that this Dominion moon meteor may have been buried deep into the ground when it struck and has only recently been uncovered. Alternatively,Dominion's Shardpool may have been discovered near the monastery at that time.
11. MISTER Sanderson has referenced how dangerous Sel’s Cognitive Realm is. We’ve assumed that’s because, post-splintering with the minds of Devotion and Dominion now dead, the Shards’ cognitive investiture did not find other minds through which to exercise power. Thus, bits of their cognitive investiture achieved sentience on their own with “bizarre effects.”

 

I don’t know that there’s a whole lot new here. I just thought I would organize my thoughts on the subject and see what others have to say. Regards all!

Edited January 23, 2016 by Confused

[Landis963]

Your postulation of a "tightly entwined" Devotion and Dominion doesn't seem to fit with what we've seen happen between two invested Shards, e.g. Ruin and Preservation.  Namely, one magic system for each Shard, and a "balanced" one for the push and pull between the two.  Admittedly, Devotion and Dominion's relationship would have been much less antagonistic than Ruin and Preservation by default once the Intent really started to kick in, and we don't know the details of what magic was like before they were Splintered, but without further evidence the existence of a "proto-Dor" doesn't seem plausible, at least to me.  

[Yata]

To me this theory as too much "exceptions" to the Realmatic to be likely.

 

For example we don't know if any of the actual Magic System was there before the D&D's Shattering.

The AonDor itself may be (and to me it is) a "New magic System". It was simply artificial boosted building Elantris (and the Elantrian began to born).

 

Anyway there are some problems, if D&D was so bond together to be "as easy as splinter a single Shard" they would have some kind of Harmony's Power-level .... Odium would never win aganist them.

[Confused]

@Yata and @Landis963, thank you for your comments. I’ll address my response to you together.

 

Ruin and Preservation’s relationship and magic provides no precedent for Devotion and Dominion’s or the magic those Shards create. Ruin and Preservation are different from Honor, Cultivation and Odium too. Magic, as you know, is unique to each Shardworld and results from the interaction of the Shardworld and its culture with a Shard’s mandate (intent). Where two or more Shards inhabit the same Shardworld, only the mandates (intents) differ, since all other factors are the same. We wouldn’t expect Ruin and Preservation’s relationship to serve as the template for any other Shard relationship on any other Shardworld.

 

I think Aona and Skai were romantically involved. Their “thoughts and personalities” became attached to the Shards Devotion and Dominion. It’s reasonable to assume their romance continued after their ascension. Because of their relationship – and unlike the opposing Scadrial Shards – their minds and power entwined and aligned. In a long-term relationship, you finish each other’s sentences; old marrieds even begin to look alike.

 

Thus, IMO Devotion and Dominion’s mind and power were complementary, not supplementary. Their powers coincided, acted as one, with the power of one. Mechanically (and Realmatically), my OP thesis posits that Dominion’s investiture acted as the Cognitive Realm control valve on the flow of Physical Realm magical power. Every Sel region we’ve seen uses “forms programming” emblematic of Dominion’s “control” mandate. (As the OP states, Arelon may be the one exception, a place of pure and unlimited love and giving.) Dominion’s Cognitive bottleneck throttled the amount of Physical Realm power the combined Shards could exercise.

 

@Yata, I think this magic fits Realmatic theory perfectly and just described how and why it does. I welcome a fuller understanding of your contrary view. I feel I also explained, to both you and @Landis963, why Devotion and Dominion at any time could only direct the power of a single Shard, unlike Harmony, who has never had any Cognitive restrictions on his ability to exercise power.

 

Why do I think the Dor may have been Sel’s original meshed Physical Realm investiture? For the same reason that Honor’s Physical Realm investiture IMO is the same as it was before his splintering: the “conservation of investiture” theorem and its corollary the “conservation of mandate (intent)” hypothesis.

 

Foreced splintering involves the destruction of a Shard’s mind, its Cognitive investiture (I believe). That’s why the power has no mind to direct it and becomes a splinter – the Shard’s mind has been destroyed. Power seeks a new mind for direction or become sentient on its own.

 

The power itself – a Shard’s Physical Realm manifestation – is untouched by splintering (IMO). Syl – a splinter herself – can direct Honor’s power just like honorspren could in Nohadon’s time, when Honor was still alive. Based on Honor’s example, I speculate that the Dor existed before Devotion and Dominion’s Splintering.

[Landis963]

*snip*

 

I'm going to be responding to this piece-by-piece.  

 

Ruin and Preservation’s relationship and magic provides no precedent for Devotion and Dominion’s or the magic those Shards create. Ruin and Preservation are different from Honor, Cultivation and Odium too. Magic, as you know, is unique to each Shardworld and results from the interaction of the Shardworld and its culture with a Shard’s mandate (intent). Where two or more Shards inhabit the same Shardworld, only the mandates (intents) differ, since all other factors are the same. We wouldn’t expect Ruin and Preservation’s relationship to serve as the template for any other Shard relationship on any other Shardworld.

 

 

It does, in fact, provide precedence.  Shards warp Investiture around themselves, we've seen it before, regardless of any feelings they might have on the matter.  If we were only talking about how the Shards feel about each other, then you might be correct here, but we're not, so you aren't.  Therefore, it stands to reason that when 2 Shards are in one area, the Investiture of that area would react in a similar to how it acted when 2 different Shards were in a different area.  

 

I think Aona and Skai were romantically involved. Their “thoughts and personalities” became attached to the Shards Devotion and Dominion. It’s reasonable to assume their romance continued after their ascension. Because of their relationship – and unlike the opposing Scadrial Shards – their minds and power entwined and aligned. In a long-term relationship, you finish each other’s sentences; old marrieds even begin to look alike.

 

 

Yes, but an old married couple, no matter how in tune they are with the others' thoughts and actions, are still a couple, are still two distinct people.  I don't know if "entwining" Shardic power like how you describe is even possible when there are 2 minds to contend with instead of only 1.  Harmony is a special case because his intents are so diametrically opposed, but I find it difficult to believe that even if some chosen one took up Devotion's and Dominion's powers after they died, that they wouldn't need to keep the powers balanced like Harmony does with his powers.  

 

Thus, IMO Devotion and Dominion’s mind and power were complementary, not supplementary. Their powers coincided, acted as one, with the power of one. Mechanically (and Realmatically), my OP thesis posits that Dominion’s investiture acted as the Cognitive Realm control valve on the flow of Physical Realm magical power. Every Sel region we’ve seen uses “forms programming” emblematic of Dominion’s “control” mandate. (As the OP states, Arelon may be the one exception, a place of pure and unlimited love and giving.) Dominion’s Cognitive bottleneck throttled the amount of Physical Realm power the combined Shards could exercise.

 

 

Except that we don't know whether the forms were a thing while Dominion and Devotion were alive.  Sel may have had a focus of its own, a la Scadrial with metal, or Roshar with gemstones.  Also, I remain skeptical of the "acting as one" bit, especially with regard to them creating a singular magic system.  

 

The main problem with puzzling out Selish magic is that there are two distinct parts of the history of Investiture on Sel: "Before Odium" and "Aftermath."  Before Odium ("B.O." for short) we have two Shards that are 1) complementary by default and 2) lovers.  In the Aftermath ("A.M." for short) we have no Shards (because Odium skedaddled as soon as he was done), a bunch of floaty talky magic balls and a mess of Investiture starting to act out because there's no mind in charge to give it purpose.  BO would have had three magic systems, one for Devotion, one for Dominion, and one representing the push and pull between the two (and there would be some push and pull between the two).  AM has one magic system, the Dor, and a whole mess of ways to access its power, running the gamut from "requires human sacrifice" (Jeskeri Mysteries, Dakhor) to "requires a magic dance" (ChayShan).  

Edited January 21, 2016 by Landis963

[Confused]

@Landis663, we have a different view of both Realmatic theory and Cosmere-ology. Following are my responses to your objections:

 

1.  “[W]hen 2 Shards are in one area, the Investiture of that area would react in a similar [way] to how it acted when 2 different Shards were in a different area.”

 

I disagree. Each Shardworld is unique, and the magic of each Shardworld is unique. This is canon, not controversy. What you suggest would mean that Devotion and Dominion on Sel (as Shards, not “personalities”) should have magically acted toward one another “similarly” to how Ruin and Preservation acted toward one another on Scadrial. You would disregard their different mandates (intents) and the different cultural influences of each planet on their respective Cognitive and Spiritual Realms.

 

Ruin and Preservation do provide some “precedent,” as you say, since we now know that Shards on the same planet can interact with one another. That is not a necessary conclusion. But there’s no reason to think that the manner of that interaction should be identical or even “similar” among Shards. People on earth have all sorts of social and physical interactions with one another; why shouldn’t Shards?

 

And just to clarify something I’m sure was simply a misstatement on your part, “Shards [DON’T] warp Investiture around themselves.” Shards ARE investiture. Shards do invest matter and energy and may thereby warp them. I don’t think there’s a General Relativity theory about investiture itself, though.

 

2. “Old married couples…entwining.” The “Shard’s entwining” part was a metaphoric effort to explain why the Shards would choose to combine their power: Love cedes itself to Control.

 

The Realmatic explanation of how this works is the guts of the argument. We know from HoA that restrictions on a Shard’s cognitive investiture – its Mind – likewise limits its ability to exercise Physical Realm power (what Sazed calls a Shard’s “Body”). If I am correct, and the “forms programming” Cognitive means of accessing the Dor (the Physical Realm power of the two Shards) comes exclusively from Dominion, then one Shard IS controlling the joint power of both: Love cedes itself to Control.

 

I don’t think someone picking up these two Shards, as Sazed did with Ruin and Preservation, would need to “balance” their powers as you suggest. You’re correct that Harmony is a “special case” because of the “diametric opposition” of his Shards’ mandates. Devotion and Dominion, though, are not opposites and don’t need “balance.” They arguably never needed to work together at all and, I speculate, only did so because of their pre-Shard relationship.

 

The Shards did need to accommodate themselves on Sel, as they jointly invested in the planet. I believe what I suggest above is the means of their accommodation: Love cedes itself to Control, through the Dor’s use of Dominion’s Cognitive Realm gateway into the Physical Realm. That is not a “third” magic system; it is simply the Shards working together as we might expect lovers to do.

 

Whether joint splintering would be less taxing than if Odium splintered each Shard separately is admittedly speculative. But the speculation fits with my argument and analysis.

 

3. “B[efore] O[dium] would have had three magic systems, one for Devotion, one for Dominion, and one representing the push and pull between the two (and there would be some push and pull between the two).”

 

I disagree. Unless there’s a WoB that I’ve missed (very possible), I don’t believe this idea of two Shards creating three magic systems is canon. Nor do I agree that “there would be some push and pull between the two.”

 

Addressing the latter first, “push and pull” systems are specifically associated with Scadrial. They fit the logic of opposing Shards, especially ones that can only stabilize or destroy like Preservation and Ruin. Feruchemy is the perfect expression of combining such powers. It isn’t coincidental that Sazed was a feruchemist, who understood the necessity of balancing these powers.

 

We don’t see such combinations elsewhere. Admittedly, we’re only aware of Roshar and Sel having more than one Shard. No “balancing” system appears on either planet, as far as we know. Why do you assume such third systems must exist?  

 

4. “Sel may have had a focus of its own.”

 

I don’t subscribe to the “focus” theory. IMO each magic system essentially works the same way: first, a magician commands the magic (a Cognitive activity commencing in the Cognitive Realm); second, the command causes Spiritual Realm connections between objects to adjust themselves; and third, the result of those adjustments is the release of Physical Realm power.

 

The important point here is that every magic begins with a command of some sort (except perhaps unconscious healing), and that command issues from the Cognitive Realm. When an Allomancer consciously chooses to burn metal, he is issuing a Cognitive command to the Spiritual Realm for the type of power he calls for. That power flows through the metal bits and hooks up with the Allomancer to make magic. The metal is not so much a “focus” as a conduit between the Allomancer and Preservation’s power.

 

Roshar’s gemstones are not focuses (foci?) either. They are reservoirs of Stormlight – Physical Realm gaseous investiture (power) – that Surgebinders can infuse for their use. Or you can add a spren to the gemstone and make a fabrial. But gemstones are unnecessary for a Surgebinder to use Stormlight – he or she can get it directly from a Highstorm.

 

5. “There are two distinct parts of the history of Investiture on Sel: ‘Before Odium’ and ‘Aftermath.’

 

This is certainly true. But it doesn’t follow that the splintering destroyed every aspect of Sel’s pre-splintering magic. I posit that it changed the means of Cognitively accessing that magic, replacing a globally available gateway to magic with a series of territorial ones. Each of these Cognitive means of access, though, continues to come from Dominion.

 

There’s no reason to think splintering would change the Shards’ power – its Physical Realm investiture. (Their Minds, yes, but not their power.) Splintering didn’t change Honor’s power, the only other splintered Shard we know of. Honor’s investiture continues to bind, his mandate is unchanged. Why would you think the Sel splintering would change Sel’s magical power? IMO the Dor was Dominion and Devotion’s shared power before the splintering and it remains so.

[Landis963]

1.  Intent (or Shardholder attitude) has nothing to do with what I'm saying.  It doesn't matter whether Ruin and Preservation hate each other, or Devotion and Dominion love each other.  What matters is how the Investiture of each Shard reacts with the Investiture of the planet, and with the Investiture of any other Shard.  Note that it is also canon that Preservation and Ruin did not "invent" Allomancy or Hemalurgy, or Feruchemy for that matter.  Sure they can change a parameter here and there (see also the Temporal Metal switcheroo), but they don't design a magic system from the ground up.  

 

2.  Why would Love cede itself to Control in this case, of all cases?  Why would Dominion cede his power to Devotion?  Why would Skai ask Aona to cede her power?  The basic premise makes no sense, even if the Realmatics were sound (which I don't believe they are, but admittedly I have a very shaky understanding of them).  

 

The Shards would still need to be balanced, it's just far easier than Harmony has it since Devotion and Dominion can agree very readily on a code of conduct that would satisfy both Shards' Intents; namely being a just ruler that spends time and effort to improve the lot of his people.  

 

And I'm saying that working together as lovers do is not enough to prevent a balance magic system from cropping up.  Every time we've seen only one sapient-controlled magic system crop up, it's been under the influence of one Shard (Awakening is the only system on Nalthis, Sand Mastery the only system on Taldain).  Even on planets with no Shards, there's been only one system of magic (disease magic on Ashyn, Aviar Talents on First of the Sun, Shades on Threnody).  

 

3.  Steelheart Signing Report, question 5 is the WoB you're looking for.  Which pretty clearly corroborates my rebuttal here.  

 

4.  Why, then, does metal, of all things, unlock Preservation's and Ruin's power?  Why do gemstones attract Stormlight so strongly, and hold it as tightly as they do?  

 

5.  Because the odds are very good that the splintering did in fact change the nature of Sel's magical power.  The Dor is bursting at the seams during Elantris, attracting itself to Raoden's Aon experiments and threatening to overpower him.  He hears no strange voice during his attacks, nor prophetic dreams, nor any sort of guidance from a cognitive shadow like Dalinar and Kaladin do from the Stormfather.  Raoden only meets Aona's cognitive shadow once, when he gets dumped in the Shardpool, and we haven't seen hide nor hair of her or her counterpart besides that point.  The Dor has very strict requirements that are remarkably different than those systems presided over by living Shards; Aons, for example, cannot be drawn accidentally, but making a mistake in the drawing invalidates the construction.  Compare this to Awakening, where a misphrased Command produces a small bit of artificial stupidity, instead of leaving the target inert.  

 

I do agree that the relative level of Investiture was probably the same before and after Odium, and also that assuming that Sel's planetary Investiture was reset to factory zero after the splintering is faintly ridiculous.  I also suspect that a proto-Dor, with terrain-derived symbols producing lasting magical effects, might have been the balance between Devotion and Dominion.  However, there's still two systems that probably died with Devotion and Dominion, either because the Shards weren't present to grant the power or because the practice died in the intervening years between Odium and Elantris.  

[ParadoxicalZen]

IIRC, there is a WoB corroborating number 5 that the magic/Dor doesn't work the same way as it did before but I can't remember the two points it was referencing, whether it was before and after the splinterings or otherwise. I'ma go have a looksee but i think its on Theoryland.

 

The Dor is still the same technically, except i think the way people are Initiated into the system/how the system is actually accessed has changed. I'm having no luck trying to find this WoB, does anyone else know which one i'm thinking of?

[Confused]

@Landis963:

 

1. “Intent” (what I call “mandate” based on HoA text) is not “Shardholder attitude.” It is a compulsion on the manner in which a Shard exercises its power. Ruin must destroy. Preservation must stabilize. A Shard can overcome a mandate’s compulsion for at least a time, but not easily. Personal character and feelings – the Shard’s “attitude” – are (almost) irrelevant. A Shard’s “thoughts and personalities” – what I think you mean by “attitude” – are separate from its mandate and its power according to Sazed.

 

Thus I agree that “t doesn’t matter whether Ruin and Preservation hate each other…” Hate has nothing to do with their mandates and will not affect the way these Shards interact.

 

But it DOES matter that “Devotion and Dominion love each other” because Devotion’s mandate is “Love.” That was the original name of the Shard. Devotion will interact with Dominion based on her Love mandate even if she hated him on a personal level because that’s her Shard’s compulsion. (And Dominion, in turn, will interact with Devotion based on his “Control” mandate whether or not he loves her.)

 

You again state that “What matters is how the Investiture of each Shard reacts with the Investiture of the planet, and with the Investiture of any other Shard.”  This sentence confuses me. Only two things affect investiture (that we now know of): the Shard’s mandate and the unique influences of the local planet. Planets don’t automatically have investiture – Adonalsium or a Shard must put it there by “investing” in the planet. WoB tells us that Spiritual Realm investiture is composed of the same “raw” or “true” investiture wherever located. Investiture in the Cognitive and Physical Realms, on the other hand, undergoes change from its “true” state to account for a Shard’s mandate and local influences. Is this what you mean by “Shard-planet” interaction?

 

I agree that “Preservation and Ruin did not ‘invent’ Allomancy or Hemalurgy, or Feruchemy for that matter.” As the WoB states, magic systems grow out of the interactions between Adonalsium/Shards and each planet. Are you suggesting Sel’s magic system came about unintentionally? Perhaps (although that would be disappointing metaphorically). But given Devotion and Dominion’s respective mandates of Love and Control, the system that did arise seems as reasonable an accommodation as any between the Shards and their planet.

 

2. Something that “makes no sense” to you perhaps indicts my powers of exposition. Regardless, your lack of comprehension hardly forms the basis for an argument. I especially enjoyed your admission of a “very shaky understanding” of “Realmatics,” which you nonetheless relied on for your “disbelief” in my conclusion. I’ll address your “balance system” argument below.

 

3. You state the cited WoB “pretty clearly corroborates [your] rebuttal.” I see nothing clear in almost anything MISTER Sanderson tells us. Let’s look at this particular exchange in full for enlightenment:

 

“Question

Feruchemy is the ‘balance’ between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a ‘balance’ magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon.

 

Question

Like Roshar?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there.”

 

This WoB establishes that a “balance” system is unique to Scadrial because of the polarity between the mandates of the two Shards. Other planets with multiple Shards would not have a “balance” system, but would have “a similar phenomenon.” MISTER Sanderson concludes by saying “something like that” has happened on Roshar.

 

To me, “something like” a “balance” system that is admittedly unique to another planet is not authority for “two Shards creating three magic systems,” which was your original point. The WoB is ambiguous at best. I interpret the Roshar reference to mean the “mandate-meshing” that seems to occur there. We believe, for example, that Honor and Cultivation combined their investiture to create the Knights Radiant. Each Order has a different proportion of Honor’s and Cultivation’s investiture attached to their Knights’ SpiritWebs. MISTER Sanderson has been coy about how many “magic systems” are on Roshar because that term is so vague.

 

So yes, Shards interact, and in one case that interaction results in a balance system. We would expect different interactions with different Shards, resulting in different systems. That’s the real point the WoB makes.

 

I stated in the OP that Arelon may be the one place on Sel where Devotion’s magic operates independently. There, the Aons are the gateway to the Dor and appear to bear no imprint of Dominion. If you looking for three magic systems, I’ll propose one with Devotion’s Cognitive gateway, one with Dominion’s (Dakhor), and one combination that covers everything else (ChayShan, Forgery, etc.)

 

4. Metal does not “unlock Preservation’s and Ruin’s power.” Metal is a conduit for Preservation’s power (only) to reach an Allomancer. If you want to call that a “focus,” go ahead, but that’s just verbal shorthand without any meaning. Metals provide the path the power takes until the metals are consumed and the path exhausts itself.

 

Gemstones are NOT a “focus” for Stormlight under any definition. As I said in my previous post, a Surgebinder can use Stormlight directly without a gemstone. The gemstones are basically batteries, however well cut.

 

5. I do not understand your point here. You base your entire argument on the “very good odds” that “the splintering did in fact change the nature of Sel's magical power.” Any evidence? Merely describing current human interactions with the Dor doesn’t address whether those interactions were the same or different pre-splintering. (And just because the “Dor’s” around post-splintering doesn’t mean Jim Morrison is still alive…)

 

All the absences you cite – “no strange voice,” no “prophetic dreams” or “any source of guidance from a cognitive shadow” – are Cognitive Realm phenomena. They are precisely the things that should be absent after splintering these Shards. IMO, forced splintering involves killing a Shard’s Mind, so we would expect nothing cognitive to occur in a brain-dead entity:

 

“sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

 

Brandon Sanderson

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

 

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...”

 

But the Shards’ Body – its Physical Realm power – does survive forced splintering. You’d first have to refute the fact that Honor’s power appears untouched by his splintering before you can conclude that Devotion and Dominion’s power is changed by splintering.

 

You cite the Dor’s “very strict requirements that are remarkably different than those systems presided over by living Shards.” Every Shard’s Cognitive means of accessing power differs from every other Shard’s, as do the Physical Realm results of the power exercise. That’s the consequence of the Shard-planet interactions you earlier referenced. The Dor’s “very strict requirements” themselves support my conclusion that Dominion established Sel’s Cognitive means of accessing the Dor. Who else but a “Control freak” would create such strict requirements?

 

I’m not even convinced the Dor is from both Devotion and Dominion. I can easily argue for it being just Devotion’s investiture. Here’s the WoB that raises that question:

 

“Windrunner

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

 

Brandon Sanderson

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.”

 

What does “in part related to this question” even mean? Classic Sanderson obfuscation…

 

Finally, Landis, I leave you with a question: Why are the Cognitive means of accessing the Dor everywhere different on Sel, but everywhere reliant on the Dor for execution? AonDor, Dakhor, Forgery all use the Dor despite the different forms-based means of accessing it. If splintering so changed the Dor, why are Selish form-based commands all different, but the power that flows from those commands always the same? Answer: because splintering had no effect on the Dor.

[Landis963]

1.  Why would the shard of Love ever want to leave her significant other without reason?  Because that's what you're stating happened here.  Unless you're saying that Dominion took Devotion's power by force in advance of Odium's arrival.  I'm not sure which is less believable.  I think we agree on the Investiture bit, although you appear to put much more stock in Shardic interference in magic systems than I do.  And yes, I'm saying that the magic systems of Sel arose without their conscious input.  

 

2.  Not everything is Realmatics.  Furthermore, if there was a hybrid Shard on Sel (as you appear to be suggesting), the Shaod would have a theme to it, and none has been apparent thus far.  Besides, your hypothesis is more counterintuitive (at least to me) than I've found Realmatics to normally act.  

 

3.  "Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon."  Again, the polarity of the two Shards in question has nothing to do with it.  Unless you're stating that no friction ever occurred between Devotion's and Dominion's Intents (a dubious claim, to my ear), there will be one magic system for each Shard, and one for whatever friction happened.  The relationship doesn't need to be acrimonious, it just needs to be present for magic system #3 to arise.  I see no reason to second-guess that particular WoB.  Also, AonDor bears the same mark of Dominion that all the other Selish forms do: AonDor is based on the terrain of Arelon.  Just like Forgery is based on the terrain of MaiPon.  There's no point in looking for three magic systems now, after Odium, because after Odium there's one brain-dead Shard, and therefore one magic system - the Dor.  

 

4.  Metal is a conduit for Allomancy.  Metal is a storage unit for Feruchemy.  Metal is a transfer node for Hemalurgy.  Fabrial creation, Stormlight storage, and Soulcasting things into the Essences all require gemstones.  I would argue that identifying a focus on any other planet is an exercise in reading too much into things, if only because for so many other planets there's not enough magic systems to draw parallels like one can for the Metallic Arts or for Roshar's systems.  

 

5.  Honor's power is unchanged because his cognitive shadow, the Stormfather, is in control of what's left of it.  He's the one in charge of accepting Ideals, he's the one distributing Stormlight and sending the highstorms, he's the one in charge of sending the visions when it comes time for the cycle to repeat.  Devotion's cognitive shadow, by contrast, is locked in the Shardpool.  I'd say that's the biggest difference between Roshar's situation and Sel's.  That and Roshar has a higher concentration of Splinters (i.e. the spren) bleeding away the power before it becomes dangerous.  

 

"Every Shard’s Cognitive means of accessing power differs from every other Shard’s, as do the Physical Realm results of the power

exercise."  Not so.  Awakening, Surgebinding, and Hemalurgy all rely on state of mind to work.  (An Awakener has to picture the result of the Command to transmit the action correctly, A Knight without the right mindset won't know the right phrasing for the next Ideal of their Order, a Hemalurgist has to "want" to do Hemalurgy in order for the power steal to happen)  The Dor, however, requires next to no cognitive input from the practitioner (with the exception of AonDor, where the Elantrian can't accidentally draw an Aon).  What the Dor does require, however, is precision.  You must draw the Aon, or carve the soulstamp, or perform the ChayShan kata, without mistakes before the Dor coughs up the power you need.  

 

And finally, if I'm parsing the question correctly, there's a much simpler answer: The Dor uses the terrain of Sel to define itself.  Because there's nothing else there to define it.  

[Yata]

I have a theory to a "new shard" resulting in the Merging of Devotion and Dominion, but AFTER their Splintering and the Dor is actually the "body" of this new Shard (that I call Unity) without any Holder.

 

To me the really difference between the cases of Roshar and Sel is that on Sel there isn't any other Shardholder to separate himself from the Splintered Shard. While on Roshar, Cultivation is a fully living, full minded Shard.

[Landis963]

New question for the big list: "is there a way to absorb the Dor, much like Vin absorbed the mists?"

[Yata]

New question for the big list: "is there a way to absorb the Dor, much like Vin absorbed the mists?"

Some days ago a guy send me that based on my "Unity Theory", now I am waiting to him posting the photo on the forum.

No Spoiler, just a bit off topic:

 

So if you remember, a few weeks ago I asked you if it was alright if I asked Brandon the following question "Is the Dor a Splintered Dominion and Devotion coalesced into a single Shard?" Well, just the other day I got my Leatherbound Elantris and this is what he said:

R.A.F.O.

Needless to say, I was happy to receive my first R.A.F.O. but also disappointed he didn't give us an answer. Not sure if that means we're on the right track or not, but just thought you would like to know.

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Yata

[Moogle]

Your postulation of a "tightly entwined" Devotion and Dominion doesn't seem to fit with what we've seen happen between two invested Shards, e.g. Ruin and Preservation.  Namely, one magic system for each Shard, and a "balanced" one for the push and pull between the two.  Admittedly, Devotion and Dominion's relationship would have been much less antagonistic than Ruin and Preservation by default once the Intent really started to kick in, and we don't know the details of what magic was like before they were Splintered, but without further evidence the existence of a "proto-Dor" doesn't seem plausible, at least to me.

 

Some days ago a guy send me that based on my "Unity Theory", now I am waiting to him posting the photo on the forum.

 

It is direct WoB that the Dor is a mixture of both Devotion and Dominion:

 

4) Can you describe the Dor? Is it like a mixture of Devotion and Dominion or does it vary?

Brandon - It is a mixture.

(source)

 

This fits in with Sel having a single system:

 

Q: Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

A: Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel--much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

(source)

[Landis963]

It is direct WoB that the Dor is a mixture of both Devotion and Dominion:

This fits in with Sel having a single system:

We were speaking of before Devotion and Dominion were splintered. The aftermath of that event is fairly well established.