theory The Lord Ruler lost his powers when his bracers came off...

[Kadrok]

The more I reread the Lord Ruler's death, the more I can't wait for 'Bands of Mourning'. Because it doesn't add up. It's as if the Lord Ruler lost all his powers when he lost his bracers. His push against Vin stops as soon as the bracers come off, as if he can no longer burn Steel, and he goes for the bracers the the way a mortal would.

Even assuming he hadn't stored anything in his other jewelry, explaining why he didn't tap Steel and run to the bracers, and even assuming the bracers were too invested for him to pull them to himself (but not for Vin to push them), he could still have used Pewter to move more quickly and steadily than he is described in his last moments.

Keep in mind that his body was only Middle Aged by the time Vin pushes the bracers off the edge, so his advancing age wasn't necessarily to blame. But for a guy who's been using his powers for 1000 years he basically acts like a muggle at the end.

 

I don't think I can claim credit for thinking of this though. We've been discussing things over at Steel Ministry, and I have a feeling someone else suggested this first. I'm also not sure if it hasn't already been floated here. Nevertheless, this is something I can't get out of my mind.

 

Thoughts? Link to a preexisting thread talking about this?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Kadrok

[KaIadin]

Do you have the original quote for it? I haven't got the book here.

[Kadrok]

The bracelets ripped free. The Lord Ruler cried out in plain, a faint distant sound to Vin's ears. The weight suddenly released her, and she dropped to the floor, gasping, her vision swimming. The bloody bracelets hit the ground, released from her grip, skidding across the marble to land before here. She looked up, using tin to clear her vision.

The Lord Ruler stood where he had before, his eyes widening with terror, his arms bloodied. He dropped Marsh to the ground, rushing towards her and the mangled bracelets. However, with her last bit of strength-pewter gone-Vin Pushed on the bracelets, shooting them past the Lord Ruler. He spun in horror, watching the bracelets fly out the broken wall-window.

In the distance, the sun broke the horizon. The bracelets dropped in front of its red light, sparkling for a moment before plunging down into the city.

"No!" the Lord ruler screamed, stepping towards the window.

His muscles grew limp, deflating has Sazed's had. He turned back towards Vin, angry, but his face was no longer that of a young man. He was middle-aged, his youthful features matured.

For my copy that is page 630 of The Final Empire.

 

It's interesting that his strength leaves him in a manner similar to Sazed. He's still only middle-aged at this point, so it's unlikely to be due to aging. It seems to me to suggests that his Feruchemy is giving out. That accounts for how he's still holding Marsh after his Push cuts off. Perhaps, like his old age hitting him, it takes a while for his body to adjust to his loss of Feruchemical Pewter.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Kadrok

[ParadoxicalZen]

....huh, interesting idea o.O

[king of nowhere]

i was under the impression that it was pain and shock to cause him to act dumb. we know he was fulll mistborn and feruchemist even without the bracers.

[KaIadin]

It's too unlikely that he gets his powers from the bracelets. He visited the well of ascension where there were beads of lerasium. He would obviously have taken some meaning he had mistborn powers.

[Kadrok]

It's too unlikely that he gets his powers from the bracelets. He visited the well of ascension where there were beads of lerasium. He would obviously have taken some meaning he had mistborn powers.

Sorry, I should clarify. I agree that he had full Feruchemical and Mistborn powers (I don't think there's any question about that); what I am supposing is that somehow, either through some intentional manipulation of the magic system (for some unknown purpose) or by some unintentional quirk of the magic system, his ability to use his powers came to depend on his bracers.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

Maybe the storing Investiture attributes of Nicrosil had something to do with it? Like he stored his Investiture in his bracers and could access the powers stored in there without having to burn a whole bunch of metal/tap a bunch of different metal minds. The drawback being that he didn't have any other metals on him to burn/tap when they flew off of him.

[Moogle]

I've brought it up enough to be a broken record. At first glance it seems like a plot hole.

My favorite theory is that TLR was Reverse Compounding. He's never described as swallowing metal, so it might be his bracers were being used as a raw Investiture source to fuel his Allomancy.

[Kadrok]

Maybe the storing Investiture attributes of Nicrosil had something to do with it? Like he stored his Investiture in his bracers and could access the powers stored in there without having to burn a whole bunch of metal/tap a bunch of different metal minds. The drawback being that he didn't have any other metals on him to burn/tap when they flew off of him.

I've brought it up enough to be a broken record. At first glance it seems like a plot hole.

My favorite theory is that TLR was Reverse Compounding. He's never described as swallowing metal, so it might be his bracers were being used as a raw Investiture source to fuel his Allomancy.

This is another good explanation. I'm personally quite attached to the notion that one could tap a Nicrosilmind to fuel Allomancy, though we've had a frustrating array of RAFOs or silence on the matter. And if he was only using his bands as metalminds, and not any of his other jewelry... if they were Multiminds bringing together Atium, Nicrosil (powering his Allomancy), Copper (since his use of Copper is confirmed), Gold and some other key metals it would certainly explain the available evidence.

 

In terms of it being a plot hole, that to me (and you by the sound of it) screams subtle intentional clue that not all is as we've been told by in world explanations (as Brandon is fond of doing).

 

The other possibility, that his powers somehow became imbued in his bracers, relates to the Bands of Mourning spoiler chapters. Three, was it? The myth that in the Alloy of Law era the Bands are reputed to grant one the Lord Ruler's powers through fudging with Nicrosil and Aluminium and so forth. Whether this was the case, and whether it was intentional or not intrigues me, and it would explain why he wore so much metal jewelry but didn't tap any of it once he'd lost his bracers.

[StarFox]

I re-read those pages. TLR became middle-aged immediately after Vin pushed off his braclets, and several seconds later, he became much older. I believe if these braclets are just normal atiummind, it can explain as well. His body just need some time to transform.

 

Using allomancy is as easy as walking, If you are 20 years old. However, if you are over 80, it won't be so easy.  And don't forget, TLR is around 1000 years old. No matter how much strength, health or speed he stored in his other metalminds, every parts of his body was dying once he lost his atiummind. Under such states, it's not surprising he couldn't use any allomancy at that moment.

 

 

And yes, I believe TLR should have nicrosilmind to enhance his allomancy. We should remember he can affect thousands of people with emotion allomancy in the square. For even lerasnium mistborn, it sounds too impossible. He should be tapping Investiture from nicrosilmind at the same time

[Kadrok]

Put the text in these, and remove all the "s. ["spoiler"]["/spoiler"]

EDIT: I see the post I was responding to here was deleted. Probably because it had BoM spoilers from the Amazon fiasco. I'm not crazy!

Edited January 21, 2016 by Kadrok

[Kadrok]

I re-read those pages. TLR became middle-aged immediately after Vin pushed off his braclets, and several seconds later, he became much older. I believe if these braclets are just normal atiummind, it can explain as well. His body just need some time to transform.

We're only told he's become middle aged after his Allomancy abruptly stops and he makes attempts at the bracers. Mortal attempts.

 

Using allomancy is as easy as walking, If you are 20 years old. However, if you are over 80, it won't be so easy.  And don't forget, TLR is around 1000 years old. No matter how much strength, health or speed he stored in his other metalminds, every parts of his body was dying once he lost his atiummind. Under such states, it's not surprising he couldn't use any allomancy at that moment.

Can we get a source on that? What indication have we had that Allomancy becomes harder as you age?

[The Invested Beard]

Trust me, everything gets harder as you age.

[StarFox]

 

We're only told he's become middle aged after his Allomancy abruptly stops and he makes attempts at the bracers. Mortal attempts.

 

 

 

Can we get a source on that? What indication have we had that Allomancy becomes harder as you age?

 

 

the next 3 paragraphs:

He stepped toward the window. His hair grayed, and wrinkles formed around his eyes like tiny webs.

His next step was feeble. He began to shake with the burden of old age, his back stooping, his skin sagging, his hair growing limp.

Then, he collapsed to the floor.

 

I think his transformation didn't stop at middle-age. He got older and older during several seconds.

 

Well, we don't have explicit indications on how ages affect allomancy. But as every parts of his body were collapsing(including his brain, lung and stomach), allomancy could not help much at that time.

[natc]

I'd imagine metalminds of the level of charge needed to slip a thousand years of age against spiritual pressure would probably be very resistant to ironpulls.

His reflexes also just might not be that good as well. He's basically immortal and godlike with very few weaknesses (0 publicly known), essentially an unstoppable demigod with unmatched power, and while he likely had to be in combat on occasion in his initial conquest days he probably either just survives with gold and retaliates, and can steelrun as necessary to compensate. Even speed up his mind.

Even Elend mostly derived his battlefield effectiveness from brute allomantic force and his passable swordplay, with nowhere near as much finesse as Vin. It's not out of the question for such a powerful man like Rashek to simply be . . . a terrible fighter used to having victory handed to him who doesn't react well to upsets. He may have stopped from shock.

Edited January 21, 2016 by natc

[Kadrok]

 

the next 3 paragraphs:

I think his transformation didn't stop at middle-age. He got older and older during several seconds.

 

Well, we don't have explicit indications on how ages affect allomancy. But as every parts of his body were collapsing(including his brain, lung and stomach), allomancy could not help much at that time.

 

I was after a source for how aging affects Allomancy. Because our disagreement centers on whether the Lord Ruler's powerlessness in this section is due to aging or some other effect (such as the loss of his bracers) this section doesn't function as a source for that in a meaningful way. Does that make sense? I don't mean this aggressively, so please don't take me as trying to shut you down, I'm just trying to clarify what I was asking for.

 

Regarding the section on him being Middle Aged, we both know that he ages beyond Middle Age, but my point was that he demonstrates the powerlessness of interest to me while he is still physically Middle Aged, or before it... if extreme age is a factor in the efficacy of his powers, it shouldn't be a factor in the period of time before he actually does age. Note that he is seemingly able to move normally during this period (unlike later when, as you have noted, his age causes his body to pretty much collapse) so we would expect that his powers would work normally. My point is that they don't seem to, and I am wondering why (hence the speculations in this thread).

Edited January 21, 2016 by Kadrok

[Kadrok]

His reflexes also just might not be that good as well. He's basically immortal and godlike with very few weaknesses (0 publicly known), essentially an unstoppable demigod with unmatched power, and while he likely had to be in combat on occasion in his initial conquest days he probably either just survives with gold and retaliates, and can steelrun as necessary to compensate. Even speed up his mind.

Even Elend mostly derived his battlefield effectiveness from brute allomantic force and his passable swordplay, with nowhere near as much finesse as Vin. It's not out of the question for such a powerful man like Rashek to simply be . . . a terrible fighter used to having victory handed to him who doesn't react well to upsets. He may have stopped from shock.

Shock is a possible explanation I considered, but given the over-reliance on powers, as you suggest, wouldn't we expect his reaction to be to use some of his powers in some manner to solve this unexpected defeat? I mean, if I were a nigh-unstoppable wizard with a millennia of being effectively carried by my powers under my belt (not that I'm not), I don't think my reaction to having the artifact that keeps me alive knocked out of my grasp (after any initial freezing up) would be to "rush" and "step". Surely we would expect him to reach out with his powers in some way, rather than act as if he hasn't any powers at all.

 

The key for me is not that the Lord Ruler doesn't act, it's that the Lord Ruler acts in a way that seems to suggest he's forgotten he has powers.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Not to mention that Allomancy is an instinctive magic so i expect him to have at least done something as a reaction.

[StarFox]

I was after a source for how aging affects Allomancy. Because our disagreement centers on whether the Lord Ruler's powerlessness in this section is due to aging or some other effect (such as the loss of his bracers) this section doesn't function as a source for that in a meaningful way. Does that make sense? I don't mean this aggressively, so please don't take me as trying to shut you down, I'm just trying to clarify what I was asking for.

 

Regarding the section on him being Middle Aged, we both know that he ages beyond Middle Age, but my point was that he demonstrates the powerlessness of interest to me while he is still physically Middle Aged, or before it... if extreme age is a factor in the efficacy of his powers, it shouldn't be a factor in the period of time before he actually does age. Note that he is seemingly able to move normally during this period (unlike later when, as you have noted, his age causes his body to pretty much collapse) so we would expect that his powers would work normally. My point is that they don't seem to, and I am wondering why (hence the speculations in this thread).

I hope I didn't act aggressively as I didn't mean to. Maybe I didn't organize my words well (as English is not my first language  ).

 

My point is, again and shocking are the reasons TLR got himself defeated. He still had the chance when bracers were pushed off. If he could be calm and quick enough, he could pull back his bracers immediately. However, Rashek was never a calm guy. 

Rashek was a powerful wizard, but I would not say he was an experienced warriors. He didn't fight, he just crushed those people against him. He might never fight in a adversity or rival situation during last several hundred years. "He is not a god/ he will be killed", I guess the fact distracted him at the moment when he lost his bracers. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by StarFox

[Vortaan]

Or the Lord Ruler spent a few centuries with a zinc mind that couldn't be emptied and all of a sudden lost the ability to think at superhuman speeds. It's odd that the Bands were his only metalmind though. He was wearing others, why were none of those metalminds? Why didn't he have a backup atium mind? For how careful and precise the Lord Ruler was, it seems like he got caught up way too much in his own hype... which doesn't really jive with his messages in the storage caverns. I wonder if Ruin influenced him somewhere along the line to get rid of backups...

[Seonid]

Just going to put this here. It likely wasn't the Lord Ruler who made the Bands of Mourning (at least, the epilogue casts severe doubt on that hypothesis).

[Vortaan]

Just going to put this here. It likely wasn't the Lord Ruler who made the Bands of Mourning (at least, the epilogue casts severe doubt on that hypothesis).

 

Disagree. It was likely the Lord Ruler who made them. It was likely not the Lord Ruler who built the temple and helped the Southern continent. 

[Seonid]

I'll agree to disagree on this one. There's little enough evidence either way. VenDell (who may or may not have been being completely honest) says that the Lord Ruler made them. The SoScadrians believe that the person they call the Lord Ruler (the one who built the temple and helped them) made them. Their belief could be wrong, or VenDell could be lying. Not enough information to conclusively decide the point.

[Vortaan]

I'll agree to disagree on this one. There's little enough evidence either way. VenDell (who may or may not have been being completely honest) says that the Lord Ruler made them. The SoScadrians believe that the person they call the Lord Ruler (the one who built the temple and helped them) made them. Their belief could be wrong, or VenDell could be lying. Not enough information to conclusively decide the point.

 

Weeeelll.... they believe he showed up with them, was my reading, and assumed because he showed up with them he made them. I'm not sure if that logic holds up now that we have a pretty good idea that Rashek and the southern Lord Ruler were more than likely different people.