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Also Meta, there's no reason for kipper to lie about this so I am going to assume he isn't.

I can think of one reason, which I'm uncomfortable that you haven't even considered. What makes Kipper so special that he can't be an eliminator?

Also, since Adavantos is (claimed) Blind, the note might be wrong even if Kipper's innocent. Adavantos? Was Meta your target?

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I can think of one reason, which I'm uncomfortable that you haven't even considered. What makes Kipper so special that he can't be an eliminator?

Also, since Adavantos is (claimed) Blind, the note might be wrong even if Kipper's innocent. Adavantos? Was Meta your target?

Because if kipper was lying about this he would basically be signing his own death warrant? Meta could have the Compulsive liar side role which would make this a lie but there is no reason for kipper to knowingly lie about this result. Also sure blindness could have caused it but I still think it wouldn't be worth it for an eliminator to gain that much suspicion just to cause us to lynch one loyalist. 

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I can think of one reason, which I'm uncomfortable that you haven't even considered. What makes Kipper so special that he can't be an eliminator?

Also, since Adavantos is (claimed) Blind, the note might be wrong even if Kipper's innocent. Adavantos? Was Meta your target?

Howdy-doo, Elbereth. Nice to see you too. :P

The general idea is, why would I get Meta killed today, if I'm lying? I'll surely be lynched tomorrow if it turns out I'm wrong, so why would I put my life on the line now?

About Adavantos, I got two notes. One of the notes corresponded with the person that Adavantos said he was going to Scan (you know who I'm talking about, Ada). I've asked for a clarification on this from the GM, so I know, even if the Blindness makes a Blind Snitch Scan someone else, the note, itself, will still say the name of the target that the Blind Snitch intended to Scan. Feel free to ask for your own clarifications to prove this, or the GM could clarify it for us all in thread. Point is, I know that the first note is from Adavantos. Either that, or he's working with the real Snitch.

Now the second Note is clearly from a different Snitch. It says Meta is an evil Beggar. So I'm voting for Meta. If Meta turns out not to be evil (which I doubt will happen), then either there's another Blind Snitch who tried to Scan Meta, there's a Mirror in play, or Meta is a Compulsive Liar (which we won't know anyway). That's all I got. Now everyone get Meta up there.

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...Right. Ignore me. I don't know what I'm doing. *retreats into corner*

On the other hand, don't say that! :) Everyone has something of value to add to the game, and it never makes me feel comfortable when a good player (especially the one who gives Tolkien characters!) makes self-deprecating remarks like that. Come outta that corner! :)
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I am still uber busy, so I'll respond more tomorrow, but I can tell you right now that Kip's information is wrong. Since this really is very early for the Traitors to pull off such a tactic, I'm more inclined to believe that I must have the Compulsive Liar side role (which would mean I have two....). I'll defend myself more sometime tomorrow, but I am not a Traitor. 

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On the other hand, don't say that! :) Everyone has something of value to add to the game, and it never makes me feel comfortable when a good player (especially the one who gives Tolkien characters!) makes self-deprecating remarks like that. Come outta that corner! :)

Oh, I haven't read any Tolkien in far too long. Nor worked on my Lord of the Rings Mafia game... Thank you for the reminder.

Aw, thanks! *comes out from corner*

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Day Two: It's just a scratch
 
Michael Durbin (Adavantos) was saved from an attack.

 

...

 

Well, that was close. I bluffed to a couple players that I had found a Bodyguard and even RP'd that I had two, when in actuality none of them claimed to me. I was hoping it'd keep the Traitors from attacking me, much like when I claimed Voidbringer in LG15b. Looks like they called my bluff, but fortunately a Bodyguard did decide to protect me, despite not trusting me enough to tell me ahead of time. Now that they've saved my life, I hope they believe I am what I say I am. If I were a Traitor, having myself attacked without guaranteed protection would just be too risky of a play to gain a loyal Bodyguards trust. Of course, we shouldn't ignore the possibility that there's a Traitor Bodyguard and that this was a WGG - but it appears that since no one else brought it up yet that the general consensus is that's not what happened. It definitely isn't, but I thought I should be the first to bring it up.

 

Hello people, and welcome to the Day. It's good to be alive. I'll be the first to spice things up by saying that I received two (!) Snitch notes during the Night. The first, I will keep private for now, but the second had a very interesting result. It said that Meta was an evil Beggar. So: Meta. And good job second Snitch. Night 1 didn't turn out bad at all.

 

I can think of one reason, which I'm uncomfortable that you haven't even considered. What makes Kipper so special that he can't be an eliminator?

Also, since Adavantos is (claimed) Blind, the note might be wrong even if Kipper's innocent. Adavantos? Was Meta your target?

 

No, Meta was not my target; that would have been Snitch #2. I almost want to believe Meta when he says the scan is not accurate. I just get the distinct impression that it was too easy, which makes me incredibly wary. I should also inform everyone that Kipper was not who I chose to send my note too. Given I'm blind it's possible he received it, however, I find the following paragraph of his incredibly suspicious, particular the parts I am about to emphasize in bold.

 

About Adavantos, I got two notes. One of the notes corresponded with the person that Adavantos said he was going to Scan (you know who I'm talking about, Ada). I've asked for a clarification on this from the GM, so I know, even if the Blindness makes a Blind Snitch Scan someone else, the note, itself, will still say the name of the target that the Blind Snitch intended to Scan. Feel free to ask for your own clarifications to prove this, or the GM could clarify it for us all in thread. Point is, I know that the first note is from Adavantos. Either that, or he's working with the real Snitch.

 

I did NOT tell anyone who I was scanning, especially not Kipper. Therefore I fail to understand how he knows the first note is from me. Right now I'm getting the distinct impression that he's just too eager about killing Meta. During a conversation I had with Kipper last night, he told me he expected both Meta and I would receive protection. I'm starting to think that Kipper might be trying to play us; what if he were a Traitor and knew Meta was innocent? He could make up a fake claim about finding out he's a Traitor Beggar and when Meta's lynched and proven innocent he can just blame it on some external circumstances, like in the following paragraph.

 

Now the second Note is clearly from a different Snitch. It says Meta is an evil Beggar. So I'm voting for Meta. If Meta turns out not to be evil (which I doubt will happen), then either there's another Blind Snitch who tried to Scan Meta, there's a Mirror in play, or Meta is a Compulsive Liar (which we won't know anyway). That's all I got. Now everyone get Meta up there.

 

They're good enough excuses that he might be able to weasel his way out of a lynch. After all, look at Clanky's defense of him. 

 

Because if kipper was lying about this he would basically be signing his own death warrant? Meta could have the Compulsive liar side role which would make this a lie but there is no reason for kipper to knowingly lie about this result. Also sure blindness could have caused it but I still think it wouldn't be worth it for an eliminator to gain that much suspicion just to cause us to lynch one loyalist. 

 

If players think this way then it makes it a great move to make. It puts him in the limelight while being able to have excuses to get him out of it. I just don't know. I'd rather wait a few cycles to scan Meta myself; that way if someone else gets the same result, we know it's true (because if Meta did have the Compulsive Liar side role then it would come back different; also, if the role I learn from it is his actual role and he can prove it to me, then that'd prove that Kipper was just lying outright to get him killed.

 

 

I don't really like how early this was put forward since it negates the possibility of us getting anything from the lynch discussion and from observing Meta for the remainder of the cycle. We need to have another way to simulate a lynch threat now though. Should we do a pseudolynch and just get the assassins to target our chosen player at night?

 

I also agree with this statement. I feel like this is another 'Wilson outs herself to stagnate discussion' situation. Kipper, why reveal these results so soon? This is a 48 hour cycle. You could have given us at least 12 to pursue suspicions of our own before coming out like that. Also, aren't you still concerned about the Traitors trying to kill you? Last night you mentioned that you expected to die soon, and yet just now you openly claim that you're in contact with not one, but two Snitches, who apparently trust you enough to send them their results? Doesn't that seem incredibly reckless and contradictory of your fear of death?

Edited by Adavantos
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They're good enough excuses that he might be able to weasel his way out of a lynch. After all, look at Clanky's defense of him.

If players think this way then it makes it a great move to make. It puts him in the limelight while being able to have excuses to get him out of it. I just don't know. I'd rather wait a few cycles to scan Meta myself; that way if someone else gets the same result, we know it's true (because if Meta did have the Compulsive Liar side role then it would come back different; also, if the role I learn from it is his actual role and he can prove it to me, then that'd prove that Kipper was just lying outright to get him killed.

I also agree with this statement. I feel like this is another 'Wilson outs herself to stagnate discussion' situation. Kipper, why reveal these results so soon? This is a 48 hour cycle. You could have given us at least 12 to pursue suspicions of our own before coming out like that. Also, aren't you still concerned about the Traitors trying to kill you? Last night you mentioned that you expected to die soon, and yet just now you openly claim that you're in contact with not one, but two Snitches, who apparently trust you enough to send them their results? Doesn't that seem incredibly reckless and contradictory of your fear of death?

At the very least Kipper will get scanned by the snitches if Meta ends up good. (Right Ada?) So sure it's possible that kipper is making a play here as an eliminator but it doesn't seem like the smartest one. If the traitors have a Mirror then traitor!kipper would have a chance of survival. So if Meta ends up good and we decide not to kill kipper outright then I recommend we target him with every role that doesn't kill him, that way he is very unlikely to be able to wriggle out of it by using a mirror and hoping it deflects Snitch #1 while Adas blindness causes him to scan someone else.

edit: They also may have a street performer but a bodyguard can prevent that from even having a chance to redirect a snitch

Edited by Clanky
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... Also, aren't you still concerned about the Traitors trying to kill you? Last night you mentioned that you expected to die soon, and yet just now you openly claim that you're in contact with not one, but two Snitches, who apparently trust you enough to send them their results? Doesn't that seem incredibly reckless and contradictory of your fear of death?

Adavantos, the way I see it is that neither of the Snitches may have targeted Kipper. The target in the receiving end could have been switched for the both of you. Edited by Mark IV
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I did NOT tell anyone who I was scanning, especially not Kipper. Therefore I fail to understand how he knows the first note is from me. Right now I'm getting the distinct impression that he's just too eager about killing Meta. During a conversation I had with Kipper last night, he told me he expected both Meta and I would receive protection. I'm starting to think that Kipper might be trying to play us; what if he were a Traitor and knew Meta was innocent? He could make up a fake claim about finding out he's a Traitor Beggar and when Meta's lynched and proven innocent he can just blame it on some external circumstances, like in the following paragraph.

If players think this way then it makes it a great move to make. It puts him in the limelight while being able to have excuses to get him out of it. I just don't know. I'd rather wait a few cycles to scan Meta myself; that way if someone else gets the same result, we know it's true (because if Meta did have the Compulsive Liar side role then it would come back different; also, if the role I learn from it is his actual role and he can prove it to me, then that'd prove that Kipper was just lying outright to get him killed.

First of all, I was hoping you'd read between the lines, and understand what I don't want to explicitly say. I know that the first note was from you. Get it now? You know, based on our conversation last Night, how I would know that. Based on my first two posts today, you should know exactly how I know that the note was from you. So I don't really understand the vote on me. Why are you trying to get me lynched when you know a lot more info behind my posts?

About the timing: I was online during the rollover and saw the chance to post, letting you know what the first note said, etc., etc. (I don't know if you failed to pick up on it, but that's not my fault) And since I was posting already, and received a second note, I was too excited not to mention it. Obviously it hasn't resulted in a bandwagon on Meta and a stagnation of discussion. So I ask again, why are you trying to get me lynched?

Edit: Also, if I had come out later, I can practically guarantee you that you would already have called me out for not posting but being online, and probably voted me for waiting on giving the read.

Edited by Kipper
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I have been thinking about other possibilities for Meta's scan in case he is actually a loyalist so here goes another possibility. Based on the suspicion Meta accumulated during day 1 it was logical to expect him to be scanned during the night. If as a traitor you had a street performer would you target Meta and bring an action to one of your teammates hoping to redirect the scan?

The risk is that an assassin is still suspicious of Meta and decides to attack him so the only way I think they would do it would be if they also have a bodyguard. Thoughts?

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I have been thinking about other possibilities for Meta's scan in case he is actually a loyalist so here goes another possibility. Based on the suspicion Meta accumulated during day 1 it was logical to expect him to be scanned during the night. If as a traitor you had a street performer would you target Meta and bring an action to one of your teammates hoping to redirect the scan?

The risk is that an assassin is still suspicious of Meta and decides to attack him so the only way I think they would do it would be if they also have a bodyguard. Thoughts?

That's a good poin. But, to me, every theory is as valid as the next. Perhaps Kipper is telling the truth, and so is the snitch's note. Then meta's bad. Perhaps kipper's not telling the truth. Then, Meta is good. On the other hand, if the Snitch is blind, then neither is Kipper bad, nor is meta.

You see? There just isn't substantial evidence as to which theory is good, and which isn't. Even the outcomes of each of these circumstances overlap. So, it isn't enough to conclude who is a traitor and who isn't.

These are my thoughts. Anyone else have any words?

*Steps off of soap box*

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I have been thinking about other possibilities for Meta's scan in case he is actually a loyalist so here goes another possibility. Based on the suspicion Meta accumulated during day 1 it was logical to expect him to be scanned during the night. If as a traitor you had a street performer would you target Meta and bring an action to one of your teammates hoping to redirect the scan?

The risk is that an assassin is still suspicious of Meta and decides to attack him so the only way I think they would do it would be if they also have a bodyguard. Thoughts?

I think I understand what you're saying except the last sentence. So in your situation, Meta is innocent, and the traitors redirected a scan towards one of themselves to cast suspicion on him.

So why do the traitors need a bodyguard? I don't get that.

I don't think anyone really wants to kill Meta right now. There's too many possibilities that things might go wrong.

So, why don't we wait a day, and have both the Snitches target Meta, and give their notes to two different people (not Kipper)? There must be problems with that, but it's a starting point.

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I can't speak for the other Snitch, but I'm intentionally trying to keep my scans unpredictable. The reason I did not scan Meta is because it was obvious to me that a Traitor would interfere with it if they had the power to do so. Same thing applies for the player I tried to send the note to; before saying this, I doubt anyone would be able to guess either of my targets last night. Therefore if I do end up scanning Kipper it will be at a stage in the game where I'm confident my results will be accurate.

 

As for your plan, I suppose it is sound enough, though I agree with Elbereth's most recent post that there are a ton of things that could be happening here, and acting hastily just because we have some information to work with (from a potentially fallible source) is not wise. At this point I'd rather talk to Meta, Kipper, and whoever this second Snitch is first before I act on this result. Otherwise we might walk straight into a trap laid by the eliminators and set ourselves back.

 

For that reason I will back off of Kipper for now, and place my vote on Burnt Spaghetti for the following reasons. First, like every player in this game, I sent you a PM last night in order to collect data on the item distribution. You answered relatively quick, though didn't express suspicion of me until a couple messages later for asking. What I don't understand with that is why share information with me if you think I might be a Traitor phishing for information? Now, if you lied to me (which I expect nearly every player did), I can understand that. But as soon as I mentioned that other players who were going around asking similar questions to me and that I had already caught a couple players lying to different players, you instantly ask me for their names and if I'd like you to send them a message to see if they lie a third time. All I told you were the three players who were gathering intel (Phatt, Mailliw and Kipper), the first of which posted openly in the thread, the following two already being known for doing just that. I did not tell you, however, the names of the players I caught in lies, as honestly I thought your desire to get involved in that was peculiar. Then, not too much later I hear from another player that you think I'm a Traitor because I was aggressive with you in my PM - which I certainly was not. I sent every player nearly identical message (only altered to fit whether or not they voted or post D1) which I had tailored with the intent to express that they didn't have to share any of their information with me and that I'd ask for no more than numbers.

 

This turn I saw you viewing the thread and yet you still have not posted. Surely you have to have some thoughts on what's happened so far, right? I understand that you're on a vacation with your family at the moment with limited internet and so I won't hold that against you, however, when I see you online viewing the thread multiple times, and know that you're capable of sending PMs, it makes me wonder why you haven't spoken up in public yet.

 

If you're suspicious of me, honestly, confront me for it. Preferably in public, as it doesn't really help to hide that sort of thing behind closed doors. If you're suspicious of anybody, let them know now so that they can respond accordingly. This goes for all the players who haven't posted this turn. Like Orlok, for example; I know it's tough to juggle two games at once, but you have to have something to say about last night, right? Or how about you, Elkanah and Kynedath? Mailliw? Stink?

Edited by Adavantos
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You know honestly I'm just trying to think who would target Adavantos. That was probably the most obvious choice for a kill I've seen since Venture Mistborn in the Ghostblood vs. Sons of Honor game. Good on you protection role.

 

Having "both the Snitches target Meta" does NOT sound like an efficient or viable idea. So I'm voting for Metacognition until he gives us some information about what he did last night. Partially because I have no other extremely solid suspicions and lynching either Kipper or Meta is the quickest and easiest way to solve this problem. And also partially because personally I don't think Meta has given a strong enough defense yet. So for now I'm siding with Kipper.

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I think I understand what you're saying except the last sentence. So in your situation, Meta is innocent, and the traitors redirected a scan towards one of themselves to cast suspicion on him.

So why do the traitors need a bodyguard? I don't get that.

I don't think anyone really wants to kill Meta right now. There's too many possibilities that things might go wrong.

So, why don't we wait a day, and have both the Snitches target Meta, and give their notes to two different people (not Kipper)? There must be problems with that, but it's a starting point.

Because the action that is redirected is random. So you assume he will get scanned but if someone does decide to attack him and that gets redirected instead. So you want a bodyguard in that case.

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Will retract my vote on Meta until I see his defense. However, I did receive a note that said he is a Blind Beggar, so if other Snitches would Scan him and send the note to someone besides me to verify this information or disprove it, that would be much appreciated.

 

And I was ninja'd like three times...

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Something seems up with Kipper. Ada, can you confirm if you understand what he's getting at with his "you know what I mean" thing?

At this point, I'd rather vote for Kipper than Meta, but I want to hear what Meta has to say first.

 

I can confirm that I know what he's referring to, and that it is not worthy of getting him lynched. I now realize he misunderstood something I said to him last night, but given it's relatively sensitive information, that's all I'll say on the matter.

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Because the action that is redirected is random. So you assume he will get scanned but if someone does decide to attack him and that gets redirected instead. So you want a bodyguard in that case.

Oh, got it.

You know honestly I'm just trying to think who would target Adavantos. That was probably the most obvious choice for a kill I've seen since Venture Mistborn in the Ghostblood vs. Sons of Honor game. Good on you protection role.

 

Having "both the Snitches target Meta" does NOT sound like an efficient or viable idea. So I'm voting for Metacognition until he gives us some information about what he did last night. Partially because I have no other extremely solid suspicions and lynching either Kipper or Meta is the quickest and easiest way to solve this problem. And also partially because personally I don't think Meta has given a strong enough defense yet. So for now I'm siding with Kipper.

  

You're probably right, but why not?

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Say Meta dies to some type of kill that night. That's immediately -2 Snitch scans we just lost. Same thing goes for if Meta has compulsive liar.

 

I'd rather have 2 scans on two other people either condemning them because they're evil or proving them because they're innocent than ONLY figure out Meta's alignment which now has a high chance to not even work at all.

 

edit: Hooray Meta is here.

Edited by Hellscythe
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