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Why didn't Heralds attract spren?


Oversleep

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I understand that at first they were the only Surgebinders when Honor gave them Honorblades. After some time (maybe a couple of Desolations) sprens figured it out and started bonding to human creating more Surgebinders.

The Heralds were chosen by Almighty based on some unknown criterion, but I suppose they exhibited the traits commonly associated with them - Jezrien was leading and protecting, Nalan just and confident and so on.

These are exactly the traits spren are attracted to (since Heralds are kind of role models for Knights Radiant).

Question: Did Heralds attract Radiantspren? If not, why not?

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It's entirely possible that the Heralds technically attracted Radiant-bonding spren, but those varieties of spren are sapient and can choose who to bond.  The Heralds already had the honorblades so it makes total sense that spren didn't try to bond with them.

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What about after the Heralds gave up their honorblades? I wonder if any of them are currently on the track to becoming a Radiant like our protagonists. Several of them would likely refuse to advance the bond and maybe try to actively "kill" their spren, but maybe one or two will join with Dalinar and the gang in their new iteration of the Knights Radiant. They could definitely provide some much needed information on how they were set up originally.

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Investiture interferes with that sort of thing. Returned would have problems, for example:

 

Argent

Can a Returned like Lightsong go to Roshar and form a bond with a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture interferes with other Investiture.

Argent

And they have a lot of it.

Brandon Sanderson

And they have a lot of it. That is not-- It's not completely-- For instance you can Push on Invested metal, but it's hard. There's a resistance, the more Invested the harder-- So a bond for instance-- forming a bond-- It's, yeah-- It can be done--

I mean Sazed took two of the powers up, right? But I kind of imagine what he did as a nuclear reaction. Where breaking an atom is hard, unless you are in the middle of a sun. And he was in the middle of the sun. At that point--

Argent

There was a lot of stuff going on around him that facilitated.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, definitely. But when you've got that much power you'll-- In other words if there is a lot of power going around, these things become easier.

Argent

So, possible but difficult is--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

(source)

 

I would think Heralds would run into the same problem. I believe there's also a WoB directly asking about Heralds bonding spren, but I don't recall the answer.

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We're probably going to learn more about Honorblades in later books, but I get the feeling they are more than Shardblades that grant anyone Surgebinding.

Also, as I've been thinking a bit about Slivers, that WoB might help explain Hoid (who I suspect is a Sliver of some sort, possibly Adonalsium.)

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We're probably going to learn more about Honorblades in later books, but I get the feeling they are more than Shardblades that grant anyone Surgebinding.

Also, as I've been thinking a bit about Slivers, that WoB might help explain Hoid (who I suspect is a Sliver of some sort, possibly Adonalsium.)

Well, with the amount of Investiture he has he could probably reach power threshold of Sliver.

Edited by Oversleep
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We're probably going to learn more about Honorblades in later books, but I get the feeling they are more than Shardblades that grant anyone Surgebinding.

Indeed. There are some big mysteries surrounding the Honorblades. They are almost certainly Splinters, but they don't have sapience (probably; that hasn't been definitively established, I suppose). That is definitely a huge conundrum.

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I think that even setting aside the fact that the Heralds have to be more highly Invested than the average human (they're immortal after all) which would make forming a bond difficult, there's the whole 'betrayed their oaths and left one guy to suffer for thousands of years in their place' thing. I'm pretty sure that's something of a bar to gaining power from the anthropomorphic personification of honorable behavior. So I have no problems seeing why there aren't any spren trying to bond these people even if they could form such a bond to begin with.

 

And on the Honorblades, yeah, I'm certain there's more to them than 'Spren-less shardblade that grants surgebinding'. Kalak thinks of them as something beyond the power of a shardblade and at that point in time, having a shardblade and having surgebinding were linked so there's got to be something more there. And the fact that we were explicitly told the blade vanishes if the Herald dies and they had to be left behind to break (or not, seemingly) the Oathpact feels like it should be very important.

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I think that even setting aside the fact that the Heralds have to be more highly Invested than the average human (they're immortal after all) which would make forming a bond difficult, there's the whole 'betrayed their oaths and left one guy to suffer for thousands of years in their place' thing. I'm pretty sure that's something of a bar to gaining power from the anthropomorphic personification of honorable behavior. So I have no problems seeing why there aren't any spren trying to bond these people even if they could form such a bond to begin with.

But I mean the time period before Aharietam. After the Heralds were chosen and before they betrayed Talenel. Do we know how long a Desolation lasts? Few years IIRC. So that's enough time for bonding a spren.

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Again I don't really see the problem here.  The Radiant-bonding spren are sapient, they can choose who they bond with.  It's not a situation like "act this way and you automatically get a spren bond".  Yes acting a certain way is a necessary part of the process, but the spren still needs to be looking in the right place, and still has to agree to the bond.  It would be incredibly foolish for a spren to bond one of the Heralds, they already have Surgebinding (and who knows what other abilities), so their bond really wouldn't mean that much as opposed to bonding a normal person (meaning there is one more Surgebinder in the world).

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Im probably wrong, and please correct me if I am, but arent the Heralds already kinda bonded to Honor? Like Dalinar to the Stormfather? He has no spren(well he does,but the SF is different from any bond we've seen so far, and he even says he wont behave like a normal bond would) and no shardblade (unless the Stormfather decides to drop him one, maybe something like an Honorblade, but not quite). I mean, I know Dalinar isnt some new Herald, but it does seem similar to the Heralds situation. The only thing really missing (besides the whole immortality thing) is the Blade, and I think thts because Stormfather simply cant do it(but maybe he would if he could, and had the inclination to do so). Just a thought.

*Oh, and if someone could please explain to me just wht an axial interconnection is, I'd be much obliged.

Edited by The Ninja Yodeler
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*Oh, and if someone could please explain to me just wht an axial interconnection is, I'd be much obliged.

 

We don't know is the short answer.

 

The longer answer is that Roshar's ten Surges were intended by Brandon to be like the fundamental forces of our own universe. Instead of electromagnetism, gravity, and the nuclear forces, you get gravity, transformation, adhesion, abrasion, etc.

 

We know a little bit about the two axial interconnection powers (Cohesion and Tension Surges).

 

Cohesion allows you to treat objects as if their hardness doesn't matter. The example given was a Radiant being able to place their hand on a table and leave a handprint in it as if it were wet concrete.

 

Tension allows you to make objects stiff. We don't know a whole lot here, but I assume you might be able to take a piece of paper and make it as a hard as a sword, allowing you to fight with something deadly sharp.

 

I can provide WoBs if necessary, but I'm a little rushed right now so I don't have time to add them.

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So Rock is now a Discworld troll? Hmm, maybe a combination of Cohesion and Division, since the latter sounds like the 'melt/blow stuff up' surge.

 

But I mean the time period before Aharietam. After the Heralds were chosen and before they betrayed Talenel. Do we know how long a Desolation lasts? Few years IIRC. So that's enough time for bonding a spren.

 

You still run into the problem that the Heralds are probably heavily Invested to the point that they can't bond a spren, or at least not very easily. And doing so would be kind of redundant unless it was to a spren that grants completely different surges, at which point you're also straying outside the bounds of what attract those spren to humans in the first place making the whole thing unlikely. And we have WoB that Kaladin with Jezrien's honorblade would only get a minor boost to his abilities so a Herald bonding a spren corresponding to the order they're patrons of wouldn't really accomplish anything either.

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We don't know is the short answer.

The longer answer is that Roshar's ten Surges were intended by Brandon to be like the fundamental forces of our own universe. Instead of electromagnetism, gravity, and the nuclear forces, you get gravity, transformation, adhesion, abrasion, etc.

We know a little bit about the two axial interconnection powers (Cohesion and Tension Surges).

Cohesion allows you to treat objects as if their hardness doesn't matter. The example given was a Radiant being able to place their hand on a table and leave a handprint in it as if it were wet concrete.

Tension allows you to make objects stiff. We don't know a whole lot here, but I assume you might be able to take a piece of paper and make it as a hard as a sword, allowing you to fight with something deadly sharp.

I can provide WoBs if necessary, but I'm a little rushed right now so I don't have time to add them.

Ohhh. No WoB necessary. You cleared it up quite well for me. Good to know I wasnt just missing what axial interconnectedness was(is it just Cohesion & Tension? Or are other surges also axial connections? I would assume so, but you didnt include either Kals or Shallans surges in there, and we know quite a bit about those two). And you just completely switched up wht I thought Cohesion was. So thanks for tht lol. Was thinking more in the opposite direction. Edited by The Ninja Yodeler
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When the Radiants had their honorblades, their failure to attract spren is pretty simple. It's not just that it's hard to Invest that which is already Invested; it's also the fact that the bond that they already had was almost the exact same thing as the spren bond. If you've got a thumbdrive plugged into your USB port, you can't plug something else into the same port. The slot is full. I think that analogy works for the situation, here.

 

Of course, once they got rid of the blades, they might not have been bonded to them anymore. It's not really clear yet. If not, one could make the argument that, as the prototypes for Radiants, they should top the list for attracting spren. There are some problems with that, though.

 

For one, why would the Heralds want to be Radiants? They already abdicated their responsibility. The years of war and torment have messed each of them up really good. It's not like a spren can force someone to bond them. A Herald would know exactly what was happening if a spren came sniffing around, and they could just reject them outright. And I think that they would. Just because this particular responsibility doesn't come with intermittent trips to hell doesn't mean that it would be in any way attractive to them.

 

Another issue is that the spren themselves would probably view the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact as a betrayal of their bond. The Stormfather is exceedingly reluctant to allow any any new bonds in modern-day Roshar, and that's just because humans broke their vows in the past. It's not even the humans alive at the time--just being a member of the same species as those who betrayed the spren once is enough for the Stormfather to judge them all unworthy. That being the case, how much more would a spren judge someone who had actually broken their own bond? True, the honorblades are not spren, but they are something very close to them.

 

See, I do think that it would be possible for a Herald without a bond to their honorblade to bond a spren. I don't think it would matter if they remained pretty Invested afterwards. Hoid seems to have picked up plenty of new powers over time, so gaining abilities isn't necessarily going to be precluded by the fact that one already has abilities. Keep in mind, the WoB most relevant to this issue is an answer to a question about a Returned being able to form a Nahel bond. The Divine Breath is a Splinter. Spren are also Splinters. Honorblades? Also Splinters. So, once you get rid of the Splinter you're bonded with, the space should open up to allow another one in (unless breaking the bind does some kind of spiritual damage). I just don't think that the Heralds would be suitable candidates after they did so.

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I am somewhat sure it is supposedly difficult, but not impossible, to bond multiple spren. And most of the difficulty would probably come from reconciling two sets of oaths if anything.

Plus, that earlier remark on the effects of Kaladin binding Jezrien's blade being of rather little consequence.

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Well, being a Radiant wouldn't be only about Stormlight efficiency. It also brings Shardplate with it... Surgebinding is fun and all, but shapeshifting Shardblade and some protection in the form of Shardplate? Which Herald could resist that?

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So with Cohesion you could melt rocks? And finally get a drink good enough for Rock?

 

Here are the WoBs for reference:

 

Cohesion involved being able to alter things at a molecular level, and his example was that you could push your hand on a table, and when you removed your hand there would still be a handprint.

 

Q:  Can you tell me something about Tension and Cohesion?

A:  I haven't actually written these magic systems yet, so they may change.  But they are--Tension is the ability to take something flexible and make it rigid. Which sounds simple, but there are so many cool things you can do with that.

 

(source for both)

 


 

Ohhh. No WoB necessary. You cleared it up quite well for me. Good to know I wasnt just missing what axial interconnectedness was(is it just Cohesion & Tension? Or are other surges also axial connections? I would assume so, but you didnt include either Kals or Shallans surges in there, and we know quite a bit about those two). And you just completely switched up wht I thought Cohesion was. So thanks for tht lol. Was thinking more in the opposite direction.

 

From the Ars Arcanum:

 

Adhesion: The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum

Gravitation: The Surge of Gravity

Division: The Surge of Destruction and Decay

Abrasion: The Surge of Friction

Progression: The Surge of Growth and Healing, or Regrowth

Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms

Transformation: The Surge of Soulcasting

Transportation: The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition

Cohesion: The Surge of Strong Axial Interconnection

Tension: The Surge of Soft Axial Interconnection

 

Cohesion and Tension are the only two mentioning axial interconnection - which I assume is some sort of version of molecular bonds. Which would make sense, given how the two powers work... perhaps Cohesion snaps bonds between molecules and allows them to shift as if they were in a liquid.

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