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Gavilar's Black Sphere and its content


manavortex

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So - umm - since I've bonded this Theoryspren I figured I should probably progress a bit. You know. Working towards the Second Oath, and all. also, Tricorder isn't talking to me yet. 

 

I've been doing some reading - there's a bunch of threads about this already, but since I wasn't certain how the perspective on thread necromancy was here I thought I'd throw in a few lines of my own, just some wild thoughts.

 

This is about the Godspren and Odium's Investiture on Roshar. 

 

The following is an attempt to keep things more organised. I'm autistic, we're great at organising. This is a suggestion, something I'd like to try: 

I'll add a big fat Presupposition tag, so that we can actually discuss everything under the presumption that the premises are axiomatic. If you want to speculate under other presumptions, please make a new thread - you link to this thread and/or write me a PM, and I'll link them right in the first post. 

 

Please forgive me not being big on quoting sources here. I usually do that, but I want to get that theory down and not get sidetracked while trying to find quotes that back it up. I'm determined to add these later, if I talk some utter crem, let me know immediately, I'll alter this. 

 

Presupposition(s): 

Odium didn't Invest in Roshar, unlike Cultivation and Honor

Honor is dead

 

 

So - there are Godspren, right?

“You said that you were a fragment of the Almighty.”

I AM HIS . . . SPREN, YOU MIGHT SAY. NOT HIS SOUL. I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE. THE PERSONIFICATION OF STORMS AND OF THE DIVINE. I AM NO GOD. I AM BUT A SHADOW OF ONE.
The Allmighty is Honor. Honor is dead, Cultivation may not be (Source: Hoid). 
 
Whenever there are two gods, there are three magics to go with them (see Ruin and Preservation vs. Dominion and Devotion). So, there are two gods on Roshar, one dead, one hiding (Nightwatcher), what if there's a third..?
 
That brings me to the Odium-spren or not-Odium-spren. If my presupposition stands, then Odium has not Invested into Roshar and instead corrupted native spren, like he most likely corrupted Venli.
What if there's a third spren? Cultivation's godspren, trapped in Gavilar's black sphere? Corrupted by Odium? What if this is one of the Listener gods, one they were right to be terrified of?
 
Looking forward to hearing your ideas. 
Edited by manavortex
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First off, Ruin and Preservation caused the 3 Metallic Arts to occur between them, not Ruin and Cultivation, and I believe it's been stated that Odium's shardpool is on Braize, so your presupposition is entirely correct.  Also, as far as we know, Cultivation remains alive and well.  

 

That stuff out of the way, I don't believe there's enough regarding Gavilar's black sphere to really pin down what it is.  It could be a corrupted spren of some kind (although I don't believe a godspren of any description could be trapped in a gem, unless there's some size-matters-not-shenanigans going on).  It could be corrupted Investiture a la Nightblood's leavings.  It could be all sorts of things.  The only things we can infer from its appearance is that 1) it's probably bad and 2) Gavilar probably didn't realize what a bad idea it was to have it in the first place.  (Judging from the shortsighted actions taken by the rest of the Sons of Honor) 

 

EDIT: I will be so unhappy when they finally make an emoticon that shortcuts from "2)".  Knowing my luck, it'll probably be an Elvis-pompadour smiley, or something equally stupid.  

Edited by Landis963
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Brandon has statedt tha part of the reason why Odium isn't rampaging like Ruin did is that there is a fully alive, powerful Shard opposing him. So that's Cultivation.

About mixing magic, this occurs when Intents are opposing. So on Roshar there isn't (probably) magic system of Honor, Cultivation and both of them - I'd rather say that Surgebinding is just of both of them.

The idea about Nightwatcher seems interesting.

About voidspren and Unmade - I think that Odium chose to Invest a little of his power on Braize, since he already was trapped there for millenia, thus creating voidspren to possess Listeners; then the Voidbringers will wipe out humans and he will take his power back to attack Cultivation. Or that's what he plans to do.

What's interesting is that Listeners normally bound to sprens (we do not know which ones, but probably not Radiantspren) to change forms, they can bond voidspren becoming Voidbringers and it's not impossible for them to bond Radiantspren. I will wait for Eshonai in stormform to bond her Radiantspren and merge the magics into one.

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Odium is definitely able to corrupt spren.  That's what Sja-anat (one of the unmade) does.

 

Going off of what we know, the only theory with really any sort of backing is that the sphere is an unmade-in-a-box.  Specifically, Yelig-nar (Blightwind).

 

And that theory has almost no evidence.  The only major indications are that after the assassination, Szeth starts hearing the voices of the people he's killed (that's how Yelig-nar communicates), and that the Parshendi were worried about Gavilar returning their old gods (which are the unmade).

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And that theory has almost no evidence.  The only major indications are that after the assassination, Szeth starts hearing the voices of the people he's killed (that's how Yelig-nar communicates), and that the Parshendi were worried about Gavilar returning their old gods (which are the unmade).

 

Where does it say how Yelignar communicates?  

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Even then, WoB says Szeth is not more conected to Yelig-nar than the avarage Rosharan.

 

To be fair, Yelig-nar yapping at Szeth doesn't necessarily mean that they are connected.

 

And I can think of over 9000 reasons that Yelig-nar would want to drive Szeth insane (remember how Wandersail ended?)

Edited by Patrick Star
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Actually, i guess that Gavilar's black sphere has - for better or worse - some relation to Cultivation:
Took, Szeth's last owner who did not want him to murder people claimed, while drunk, that he stole a black sphere from the Nightwatcher, who is somehow associated with Cultivation; and Szeth had a very bad feeling about the description of this sphere.
I actually doubt that Took was lying completely here. A black sphere is a very specific object, and if it is mentioned twice in the same book it has to have some significance. The part I am not so sure about is, that he stole the sphere from the Nightwatcher.

A further question is, if Gavilar's and Took's spheres are two different or the same. If they are the same, the chain "Nightwatcher(presumably) - Took - probably Venli - Gavilar"  sequence (with unknown people in between) is strange at best. If they are not the same sphere, then there can be more (and Roshar being Roshar there would be most likely a total of 10 or 100 spheres).

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Actually, i guess that Gavilar's black sphere has - for better or worse - some relation to Cultivation:

Took, Szeth's last owner who did not want him to murder people claimed, while drunk, that he stole a black sphere from the Nightwatcher, who is somehow associated with Cultivation; and Szeth had a very bad feeling about the description of this sphere.

I actually doubt that Took was lying completely here. A black sphere is a very specific object, and if it is mentioned twice in the same book it has to have some significance. The part I am not so sure about is, that he stole the sphere from the Nightwatcher.

A further question is, if Gavilar's and Took's spheres are two different or the same. If they are the same, the chain "Nightwatcher(presumably) - Took - probably Venli - Gavilar" sequence (with unknown people in between) is strange at best. If they are not the same sphere, then there can be more (and Roshar being Roshar there would be most likely a total of 10 or 100 spheres).

Hmm. It kinda seems like it moved up in the world (the black sphere) from a bunch of nobodies to a big somebody(Gavilar). Sorry, just noticing this now(a lot of you already noticed this most likely). Seems like it has an agenda of its own, guiding its holders to where it needs to be. Probably wrong, but I like the idea Edited by The Ninja Yodeler
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Hmm. It kinda seems like it moved up in the world (the black sphere) from a bunch of nobodies to a big somebody(Gavilar). Sorry, just noticing this now(a lot of you already noticed this most likely). Seems like it has an agenda of its own, guiding its holders to where it needs to be. Probably wrong, but I like the idea.

 

Preciousssss...

 

 

Cultivation and Odium both are acceptable Future-watchers. Probably it has something to do with that.

Edited by Alfa
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The dark sphere may contain Odium's equivalent of Stormlight, or maybe the corrupted Investiture that Nightblood produces. The Odium one seems more likely.

And as for Cultivation: I know people have the theory that the Nightwatcher is closely linked with Cultivation, but can you really see the Shard of nurturing the weak having black Investiture?

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Well Cultivation is apparently considered most similar to Ruin among the known shards, IIRC.

 

 

To be exact: most compatible. WOB:

 

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him—Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

 

Found here (Nr. 8).

Edited by Alfa
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So...I'm becoming more and more certain that "anti-investiture" or "corrupted" investiture, is going to start to be a really important thing...not only in stormlight archive...but all over the cosmere.  While I'm not entirely certain what the deal with the black sphere is...I think it's signifigance lies somewhere along these lines.

 

 (By the way...most of my posts contain spoilers for various books...so read at your own risk)

 

- We have been told that WarBreaker was written prior to stormlight archive 1 specifically to introduce us to Nightblood.  I can only assume this is because Nightblood's involvement on Roshar is going to be a game changer.  Nightblood is an excellent example of getting a good look at anti-investiture.  He basically seems to eminate a form of dark energy that dissolves (steals?) a persons soul (the innate investiture that makes sapient life possible). When he kills someone...their body turn black.

 

- It's a bit of a reach...but...this is similar to what happens when shades from the forrest of hell come into contact with aluminum.  The two energies seem to clash and the invested metal is left blackened and warped.  Something really evil is (was) hanging out on the planet.

 

- Many of the referrences to the unmade mention things like "powered by the spark of death itself"...or some other allusion to them being fueled by death, pain, sorrow, suffering, etc.  

 

- I don't want to go into specifics...but there are some other things that I wish I could referrence in LoP and White Sands.

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I think the black sphere is a way containing a large amount of Investiture, OR it gives the ability to absorb Stormlight with its benefits as Hoid, who took a bead of Lerasium and apparently has reached at least the second heightening, appears to be looking for these Black Spheres.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I checked TWOK about Took and the black sphere, and found out that Took never claimed stealing the black sphere from the Nightwatcher, but that he met the Nightwatcher and stole a black sphere - as part of the same story, but not necessary from the Nightwatcher.

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  • 1 month later...

So I know this is wild speculation, but has anyone ever considered that the black gemstone is actually the titular Aether of Night? Not much is certain as to how much of that book will be canon, and the description of the stone sure seems to fit with just the name itself...

Edited by The Invested Beard
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I think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but since this thread has been resurrected I might as well add it here for completeness:

 

I've always thought there's a good chance that the black gemstone is lined to the following passage in the WoR letter to Hoid:

 

Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead? And are you still going by your old master's name?
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