Szeth's Oathstone - Potential Spoilers

[tobar14]

When I ordered my 10th Anniversary Elantris book, I decided to ask a question that has been bothering me ever since I read TWoK.

 

Why would the Parshendi order the assassination of King Gavilar just after they signed a treaty?  Yes yes, I know that there is an in-book explanation that Gavilar shared with the Parshendi leaders that he was basically trying to bring the Parshendi gods back and they didn't want that.

 

So I used this opportunity to directly ask Brandon what has been nagging at me: Who was holding Szeth's oathstone when he was ordered to assasinate King Gavilar?

 

Immediately after I submitted my order, I started worrying that I didn't word it right and that I might get back the answer of "Parshendi".  In the end, I did not get the answer that I wanted, because I did not get an answer.

 

I received a big ol' R.A.F.O., which is bittersweet.

 

Basically what this tells me is that what is told to us in the book, might not be what actually happened.

 

Was a Kandra impersonating one of the Parshendi leaders? If so, why?

 

Sharders, theorize! 

 

 

[Viridian]

Ahh, good question! And congrats on your inscribed RAFO. You worded your question very well.

A wise Sharder once told me that RAFOs sometimes tell us as much as explanations — and at the very least, they often mean we're asking important questions.

This is interesting. I think you're absolutely right. There's far more going on here than what we've been told, and much of the story we've been given about Gavilar's assassination doesn't make much sense.

[Garfield]

We still don't know exactly what the motivation of the parshendi leaders as well as Gavilar had been and why they continued fighting the war, never tried to retreat and disappear, or explain themselves in the hopes of a peace treaty, if they had a valid reason to kill Gavilar. We do not even know why parshendi suddenly wanted the gemhearts too.

 

There are plenty of groups and individuals with shady, more or less unclear motivations in Roshar and the parshendi leaders are one of them. The only player where we know what he wants and how he is about to get this done is Odium. All sort of people think they know how to stop him or in their ignorance want Odium/voidbringers back. It's a muddle of unclear conspiracies, some of them apparently fairly dumb and/or dangerous, that's all we can say at this point.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[Pathfinder]

Ahh, good question! And congrats on your inscribed RAFO. You worded your question very well.

A wise Sharder once told me that RAFOs sometimes tell us as much as explanations — and at the very least, they often mean we're asking important questions.

This is interesting. I think you're absolutely right. There's far more going on here than what we've been told, and much of the story we've been given about Gavilar's assassination doesn't make much sense.

Not to diminish the accomplishment of the RAFO at all, but just getting a RAFO does not always mean it is an important question. There are WoB where he gives out a RAFO and then explains it is not because it is important, he is just hesitant to canonize it at that point and wants to allow himself some wiggle room in the future if he changes his mind. 

[tobar14]

Not to diminish the accomplishment of the RAFO at all, but just getting a RAFO does not always mean it is an important question. There are WoB where he gives out a RAFO and then explains it is not because it is important, he is just hesitant to canonize it at that point and wants to allow himself some wiggle room in the future if he changes his mind. 

I agree, it could mean nothing and be unimportant. I just thought it would be fun to see what people could come up with as far as theories are concerned, I like reading what people have to say about anything cosmere.  Just some food for thought for interested sharders.

 

But I will be keeping in mind that it could be unimportant and mean nothing.

[Viridian]

Not to diminish the accomplishment of the RAFO at all, but just getting a RAFO does not always mean it is an important question. There are WoB where he gives out a RAFO and then explains it is not because it is important, he is just hesitant to canonize it at that point and wants to allow himself some wiggle room in the future if he changes his mind. 

 

Yes, of course! That's why I put the qualifiers ('sometimes' and 'often'). It's fair to call me on this, Pathfinder, and worth clarifying that RAFOs aren't always meaningful.

 

It does seem significant in this case, though, that tobar was not given a simple answer. After all, if the oathstone was held by the Parshendi, he would have said so. The RAFO opens up more possibilities.

[Pathfinder]

I agree, it could mean nothing and be unimportant. I just thought it would be fun to see what people could come up with as far as theories are concerned, I like reading what people have to say about anything cosmere.  Just some food for thought for interested sharders.

 

But I will be keeping in mind that it could be unimportant and mean nothing.

 

Yes, of course! That's why I put the qualifiers ('sometimes' and 'often'). It's fair to call me on this, Pathfinder, and worth clarifying that RAFOs aren't always meaningful.

 

It does seem significant in this case, though, that tobar was not given a simple answer. After all, if the oathstone was held by the Parshendi, he would have said so. The RAFO opens up more possibilities.

Oh totally, we are all in agreement that posting it was a great idea

[Stormgate]

I think Sanderson took it to mean exactly which Parshendi was holding the Oathstone. From the POVs we have seen, killing Gavilar was a move that the Parshendi were aware of and meant to do. I think that Eshonai's sister held the Oathstone, since she seems to be instrumental in bringing the Final Desolation from Odium's side.

[Oversleep]

I think Sanderson took it to mean exactly which Parshendi was holding the Oathstone. From the POVs we have seen, killing Gavilar was a move that the Parshendi were aware of and meant to do. I think that Eshonai's sister held the Oathstone, since she seems to be instrumental in bringing the Final Desolation from Odium's side.

On the other hand, by assassinating Gavilar they were trying to prevent "bringing back their gods" a.k.a Final Desolation.

[hypatia]

Interesting.

This reminds me on an old question of mine: How did the Parshendi know of Szeth, about the mechanism of the Oathstone, about his abilities to kill?

From the beginning I wondered about the background of the meeting between this secretive people and a "little" Shin, who isn't exactly talking about being "a gun for hire".

This was always a little bit too convenient, too much of an accident for my liking.

[DreamEternal]

Interesting.

This reminds me on an old question of mine: How did the Parshendi know of Szeth, about the mechanism of the Oathstone, about his abilities to kill?

From the beginning I wondered about the background of the meeting between this secretive people and a "little" Shin, who isn't exactly talking about being "a gun for hire".

This was always a little bit too convenient, too much of an accident for my liking.

With so many secret societies, offworlders and divine beings, coincidence becomes synonymous with conspiracy.

[Seerow]

With so many secret societies, offworlders and divine beings, coincidence becomes synonymous with conspiracy.

 

During my recent reread, I noticed one of the epigraphs from the section about the Diagram, Taravangian was speculating about the truthless and needing a weapon, and I believe even mentioned the possibility of creating a truthless. It's entirely possible that the whole thing, starting with Szeth's exile and ending with the Parshendi assassinating Gavilar, was orchestrated by Taravangian's cult (I forget what we're calling them).

[DreamEternal]

During my recent reread, I noticed one of the epigraphs from the section about the Diagram, Taravangian was speculating about the truthless and needing a weapon, and I believe even mentioned the possibility of creating a truthless. It's entirely possible that the whole thing, starting with Szeth's exile and ending with the Parshendi assassinating Gavilar, was orchestrated by Taravangian's cult (I forget what we're calling them).

Unlikely. The timeline probably places Taravangian's visit to the Nightwatcher shortly after Gavilar's assassination, since he sees himself as continuing Gavilar's work in the only way he can.

[Oversleep]

Unlikely. The timeline probably places Taravangian's visit to the Nightwatcher shortly after Gavilar's assassination, since he sees himself as continuing Gavilar's work in the only way he can.

Maybe "crafting a weapon" refers to using Szeth as a weapon to further their goals. Like, "there is this Truthless with Honorblade, think we can obtain him and make use of him? Would he be useful or is he too dangerous for us since we're dealing with Desolation and that's what his deal with Truthlessness is?"

[hypatia]

We need someone with the same goal - the assassination of Dalinar.

As for Taravangian - we don't really know him before his visit with Nightwatcher, perhaps he has had another plan at this time.

Who could have held the Oathstone before the Parshendi, who would have lend him to the Parshendi?

Frankly, I also have a problem to see the Parshendi, with their history, using someone, who is besically a slave.

[IndigoAjah]

On the other hand, by assassinating Gavilar they were trying to prevent "bringing back their gods" a.k.a Final Desolation.

Sounds like part of a Xanatos gambit to me. Convince the other Parshendi to agree to assassinate Gavilar to stop the gods coming back, get the stone thing he had when Szeth returns to you, use this to bring your gods back anyway and use the war you have guessed the Alethi will wage on you to make your people desperate enough to agree to let their gods in and take stormform

Do we know what Szeth did with the dark sphere? Could he have given it to his master?

If so, I think Eshonai's sister is the one

Edited January 9, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[DreamEternal]

Do we know what Szeth did with the dark sphere? Could he have given it to his master?

He hid it away somewhere in Jah Keved, never to be seem again.

[IndigoAjah]

It also is interesting that Gavilar seems unsurprised at what Szeth can do, and says "I've been expecting you" or words like that- not an assassin, but Szeth.

[IndigoAjah]

He hid it away somewhere in Jah Keved, never to be seem again.

Ah, damnation it. Still could be a ploy by one Parshendi to force them into accepting their gods back, whilst keeping her in control

[hypatia]

Is there a possible connection with Jasnah planing to assassinate Aesudan to protect her family?

The Parshendi only decide to kill Dalinar after he told them about his plan.

This sounds as if Szeth was in Kholinar at this time.

Before the Parshendi didn't need an assassin - now they did. Where could they find him, whom would they ask?

Cui bono?

Beside the Parshendi - who had had a benefit with the death of Dalinar?

Elhokar - he is the new king.

Aesudan - she is the queen.

The Ghostbloods - don't know, but they try to kill all Kholins.

Sadeas - he ends up as the "hero" of this evening, he gains the trust of Elhokar. How long was he planning to become the king? Dalinar's death could have been the first step to reach this position.

Who else?

[DreamEternal]

Elhokar certainly did not like the fact his father was killed. In fact, he would be much happier being the heir for some more years and not fear the assassin.

Aesudan... she does not seem to be important part of a conspiracy, if her behavior is any indication.

The ghostbloods probably wanted Gavilar dead, but they don't try to kill all the Kholins.

No way Sadeas would give up the Assassin in White. It would sound more like him if he directly made a deal with the parshendi and double crossed them.

Maybe Restares? Gavilar thought it was a possibility, and I suspect he was not exactly a member of the Sons of Honor, but an ally trying to use them for his own ends while they did the same.

[hypatia]

Yes, I don't believe this could be Elhokar - this was only for all possibilities.

Aesudan - she is the new "First Lady" - Navani wasn't really happy about loosing her political influence.

But no, Aesudan was perhaps also a tool, like the Parshendi. She was the one Jasnah tried to murder - looks like a scapegoat.

For Sadeas - all in all, who would give up this convenient assassin?

But he is a possibility to explain how Dalinar seems to know Szeth althought no one else.

If I remember right, there was also a connection to Liss, but she doesn't seem to know about the Oathstone.

Perhaps this was the way to bring Szeth to Kholinar without a connection to his real "master".

Restares - I really need to reread the books...

[Slaybalj]

I have been operating on the assumption that the heralds ( at least one of them, anyways) were responsible for giving the oathstone to the parshendi ( or at least, giving them The means to direct szeth).

I dont really have a stong justification for this, it was just the conclusion i leapt to for why so many are present the night of the assassination and for the conversation jasnah overhears and when she asks the one "is everything alright?" And He replies "no."... Implying he knows szeth is just starting to rampage.

( i dont have the books with me to reread the relevant section for exact wording)

[IndigoAjah]

Nan does sound like he's been following Szeth carefully, and he is known to want to prevent the Desolations by any mean necessary, I assume he'd to have to Parshendi do it because he can't pay an assassin/do things himself as it would break the law, and the Parshendi would not be held to Alethi Laws, making him not an accomplice to breach of law, maybe?

[IndigoAjah]

Nin even. He even says Szeth has seen him before, I presume it was at the feast?