Jump to content

An Odd Coincidence


King's Twit

Recommended Posts

I apologize for the lack of some specific details in this post, I don't have my kindle with me at the moment

 

So, I'm sure this has been brought up before, but what are the odds of there being two sets of Returned siblings in the Five Scholars?

 

Returning is, at least in modern times, ridiculously rare. T'Telir is a metropolis, I don't know if we're ever given numbers on its population, and yet there are only 25 (I think) Returned gods, despite the fact that none of them had died in the last four or five years. That's not even including the rest of Hallendren, which for the most part likely follow the Iridescent Tones and would send anyone who Returned to T'Telir.

 

The idea that two sets of two siblings would Return seems impossible, and then you factor in that they were all likely extremely intelligent, since they were the Five Scholars and discovered much of what is now known about Awakening and Biochromatics. We know that you don't just become intelligent when you Return, because there was the slow god that Lightsong played complex ball throwing game with. It could possibly fall under the "your idea of what a Returned should be" like having large muscles or being beautiful, but that seems mostly limited to things in the physical realm, unless Returned could just increase their brain size to affect their intelligence, and so increase their presence the cognitive realm, but I doubt that would work in this universe.

 

I think that there are a few possible explanations to how this statistical impossibility could have occurred:

 

  • It was Endowment's doing. She deliberately chose to Return siblings, possibly because they died in a certain similar way or possibly because she anticipated the Five Scholars forming.
  • They were born Returned from another Returned. We know that it is possible, because the God King can reproduce. We don't know the mechanics of that, but I don't think it is a function of being the God King, since he was seemingly only a normal Returned with a large store of Breath. It could possibly just be believing that you can have a child, since all of the members of the Court of the Gods are taught that they are infertile.
  • The Five Scholars, and possibly others, knew how to make themselves Return, possibly by dying under certain planned circumstances.
  • They weren't biological related, but they did consider each other their siblings. This could be a relic of something cultural at the time of their Return. Maybe if you Returned around the same time as someone else, or in a similar way, they were considered your family. Spending your early formative time after you Return with someone could cause some form of familial love to develop.

 

Or possibly something that I haven't thought of.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit: I don't think I had ever realized, until now, just how often I use the words "possible" and "possibly" when I write things.

Edited by King's Twit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is a relationship between siblings and their spiritual DNA?
For instance, I think its been confirmed that identical twin siblings could access each other's metal minds. (Can we please have a set of inverted twinborn if this is true? Like, Iron/Steel and Steel/Iron)?

Perhaps whatever spiritual DNA that makes one more likely to "Return" is linked. And being siblings, they had very similar SDNA, as they would DNA? Therefore, each would be more likely to be Returned? This holds true, even if SDNA is affected by their environment, since as siblings they would have a similar environment.

 

Speaking as a RL Twin, being thought of as a pair in a lot of peoples minds might have an affect on their Cognitive or Spiritual Identity. I imagine the same holds true for Siblings.

Its like how two Mistings, born from a pair of Mistborn? The odds of them BOTH being Mistings are slim, but they have better odds than two random unrelated people being mistings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps there is a relationship between siblings and their spiritual DNA?

For instance, I think its been confirmed that identical twin siblings could access each other's metal minds. (Can we please have a set of inverted twinborn if this is true? Like, Iron/Steel and Steel/Iron)?

 

I would think that, if their sDNA was similar enough for them to access each other's metalminds, then they would have the same abilities granted in their spirit web. But since we don't really know much at all about the Spiritual Realm, you may be right that the inverted abilities is possible.

 

 

Perhaps whatever spiritual DNA that makes one more likely to "Return" is linked. And being siblings, they had very similar SDNA, as they would DNA? Therefore, each would be more likely to be Returned? This holds true, even if SDNA is affected by their environment, since as siblings they would have a similar environment.

 

Now we're getting into the Nature vs Nurture of Returning. In-world, the common belief is that you Return for something related to your life, whether that be the way in which you died, some incomplete task, or something about you that Endowment sees as making you worthy of Returning. They could be wrong, they're wrong about so much else, and there could be something like Returning potential written into the sDNA, I guess we'll have to wait for Nightblood's release to find anything more out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Returneds are send back by Endowment, therefore it's very at Endowment's Will. It's very hard to find a pattern (and maybe there isn't any pattern at all) while the only source of Divine Breaths send them in arbitrary way.

 

For example we know that Idris's Royal have Returned's blood and if there is somekind of correlation between "be Returned's offspring and Returning" we may suppose to have some kind of reference of that. Of course the simple existence of Denth (and his Sister) may be used as a some kind of proof of this (but I don't feel it right).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Returneds are send back by Endowment, therefore it's very at Endowment's Will. It's very hard to find a pattern (and maybe there isn't any pattern at all) while the only source of Divine Breaths send them in arbitrary way.

 

We know that the Divine Breath are splinters of Endowment, and since splinters have to be created intentionally, we know that she likely specifically creates the Divine Breath to Return someone. As far as I know, though, we know nothing about how she chooses, or even if she chooses, the specific individuals who Return, so I don't think we can call the process 'arbitrary'. The existence of Arsteel/Yesteel and Denth/Shashara as sibling Returned, if they are biologically related, is very strong evidence that the process of choosing whether or not someone will Return is not arbitrary at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe they just done something together when they were dying? They both saved someone or something at the same time and were Returned together.

Possible, but it may be possible also that they aren't true brothers, maybe the cult of Returned that picked them as forming "family of Returneds".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, reading through the Hoid the storyteller section of Warbreaker, he talks about Peacegiver (Vasher) creating the God King dynasty by personally Returning the first God King. The first God King "gained his Breath and life from Peacegiver himself."

 

This could be something fabricated to legitimize the rule of the God Kings by tying them more closely to Peacegiver, but it could be true. If Vasher had known how to cause someone to Return, either after they died or while they are still alive, he may have created the first God King and then given him the massive store of Breath. If Vasher did create the God King, then that could be a possible explanation for why the God King can have children while the other Returned can not. But Vo had a child so who knows.

 

Relevant bit from the annotations about Hoid's story:

 

Is everything he says here true? No. There are some approximations and some guesses. However, all things considered, it’s pretty accurate. All of the large bits are true.

 

I would consider Peacegiver creating the first God King to be a "large bit," as they focus on it for a large portion of Hoid's story, but the "large bit" could instead be that Peacegiver established the dynasty, with the detail that he Returned the first God King himself being inaccurate.

Edited by King's Twit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Vasher did create the God King, then that could be a possible explanation for why the God King can have children while the other Returned can not. But Vo had a child so who knows.

The God King is a Returned like any other in the Court, the only difference is about the thousands of Breaths that He has.

Every Returned can have a children through the method used for the God King but of course only few members of the Iridescent Tone know about the truth.

 

Is unclear if the method knowed by the priests is the only method, and the priest themself don't know if Vo used that method to have his offspring.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The God King is a Returned like any other in the Court, the only difference is about the thousands of Breaths that He has.

Every Returned can have a children through the method used for the God King but of course only few members of the Iridescent Tone know about the truth.

 

Is unclear if the method knowed by the priests is the only method, and the priest themself don't know if Vo used that method to have his offspring.

 

Yeah, ignore that bit, I was just spitballing. But the God Kings being like normal Returned does not mean that they Returned through normal means.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Endowment is responsible for choosing who Returns and who does not.

 

As a god with no-one opposing her, she can do whatever the heck she wants (subject to her mind being mutilated by her Intent). So I think the odds of two siblings Returning are pretty high. If two people died, it'd be kinda tragic to only Return one and not the other. I'd feel kinda bad if I didn't Return both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But I assume that there are many more good people dying in tragic ways that do not Return. Endowment's motives are just really difficult to read, but I guess that comes with being a god.

Returneds aren't just dead people choose by Endowment, but they are "dead people who want to change the future choose by Endowment".

Probably it isn't just about "a good people is dead, I must Return him" but more about their "useness that Endowment may find in the right Deadmen in the right time/spot".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the Elantris 10th anniversary edition Ars Arcanum:

 

How then, is a practitioner of ****** Initiated? It does not appear to be tied to family descent, as one finds on Sadrial, nor is it a specific Shard's Decision, as on Nalthis. Even Taldain's and Vax's methods do not seem to apply here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...