First chapter of book 3 with Kaladin

[natc]

Kaladin tells Syl that he is a broken man at one point, to which Syl replies that "they all were".

The books aren't exactly glossing over it, but let's be honest a full explanation on a magic system's intricacies in the actual narrative would just be pace-ruining exposition if too detailed. And would also make for a bizarre conversation topic due to being completely irrelevant to the matters at hand.

Something Japanese anime and light novels tend to screw up.

[Pathfinder]

Yes. And there were voidbringers as soon as the storm hit. Voidbringers with marbled skin like the parshmen and parshendi. The storm contained vicious red lightning. Count two and two together. Shallan is an intelligent person and the rest of the Radiants are not dumb either.

Jasnah at the end of WoR and I believe another character at another point (Syl i think?) state how the Everstorm is the first of its kind. Thats NOT how voidbringers transformed in the past. We do not know how they did in the past, but Jasnah says herself that everything she learned from the highspren about how it was done before could be null and void (buda bum tss) due to the everstorm. The stormform listeners summoned the everstorm but were not the result of them. So it is an assumption on everyone's part that now that the everstorm is flying over the country, that it will transform the parshman but given it has never happened before, it is still just a reasoned assumption

[IndigoAjah]

Jasnah at the end of WoR and I believe another character at another point (Syl i think?) state how the Everstorm is the first of its kind. Thats NOT how voidbringers transformed in the past. We do not know how they did in the past, but Jasnah says herself that everything she learned from the highspren about how it was done before could be null and void (buda bum tss) due to the everstorm. The stormform listeners summoned the everstorm but were not the result of them. So it is an assumption on everyone's part that now that the everstorm is flying over the country, that it will transform the parshman but given it has never happened before, it is still just a reasoned assumption

Hoid and the Stormfather seem to think it will do that though.

[natc]

They're probably the most qualified people present to analyze the situation, but you do kinda have to see it happen for it to go beyond a (very) educated guess.

[Meg]

Honestly, I don t care what the author in a comment to the books writes. I will not read comments by the author to be able to understand what is going on in his stories.

Honestly? Exactly that is what makes BS and his books -- and the cosmere -- such an interesting hobby. Compared to food, I'd say it would be rather bland if this would not be BS's way to do things.

[Garfield]

Honestly? Exactly that is what makes BS and his books -- and the cosmere -- such an interesting hobby. Compared to food, I'd say it would be rather bland if this would not be BS's way to do things.

 

 

Sorry, but the cosmere is not my piece of cake. I can t stand the Mistborn novels for example, in two attempts I couldn t make it past the first half of book one in earnest because the Character of Vin was so boring and at the same time tedious as a person. I skimmed through the rest and found not much that interested me enough to carry on. I found that the way Vin was constructed as a character just not plausible  (like having the ability to fake being a noblewoman when she was basically a street kid without an education, her upbringing coming with the low class accent and language use etc). And non plausible main character, that's a deal breaker for me.

 

So, I like the Stormlight Archieve books, but I am not a general fan of Brandon Sanderson's other writing.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[king of nowhere]

well, it's not a matter of being sanderfans or whatever. if i liked a book, i want to know more about it. If, after reading - or watching on tv, or anything - a story, I don't want to know more about the world, the background events leading to the plot, and the smaller character quirks, then I didn't enjoy the story enough. That's the hallmark that I liked a story: that it makes me care for the world it takes place in.

[Garfield]

well, it's not a matter of being sanderfans or whatever. if i liked a book, i want to know more about it. If, after reading - or watching on tv, or anything - a story, I don't want to know more about the world, the background events leading to the plot, and the smaller character quirks, then I didn't enjoy the story enough

 

 

That would be like needing an extra comment of JK Rowling to understand the magic system in her universe.

 

I want that that background info to be woven into the story I read, not in an interview with the author. This is only volume 2 of a longer series, I expect those details to be explained within the later books, I expect it to fully work as a standalone if I am not interested in other works of that universe and companion literature/interviews by the author.

 

Like if I read a Superman comic, I don t want to depend on also reading Batman to understand the lore of the world, even if its happening in the same universe. I don't want to read Batman to understand Superman and vice versa plus a comment of the author to fully understand what is going on in one given story.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[Garfield]

I decided to read Terry Goddkind now and then maybe give the Stormlight books a second round, watching out for little hints of all kinds that I might have missed the first time.

[Pathfinder]

That would be like needing an extra comment of JK Rowling to understand the magic system in her universe.

 

I want that that background info to be woven into the story I read, not in an interview with the author. This is only volume 2 of a longer series, I expect those details to be explained within the later books, I expect it to fully work as a standalone if I am not interested in other works of that universe and companion literature/interviews by the author.

 

Like if I read a Superman comic, I don t want to depend on also reading Batman to understand the lore of the world, even if its happening in the same universe. I don't want to read Batman to understand Superman and vice versa plus a comment of the author to fully understand what is going on in one given story.

Most of the questions you have posted on this site can be found in re-reads of Sanderson's books as I have pointed out to you in other threads. Most of the Words of Brandon are pieces of information that can be figured out in the book when really delved into, but helps those of us who cannot pour over every book with a fine toothed comb and allows us to gain a better understanding and enjoyment of the works he writes. The other portion of Words of Brandon are pieces of information that hasn't been brought up yet, but the very astute of this board have picked up and made theories about. Their inquiries are then brought up to Sanderson and he confirms some or avoids others. This board is where I learned about identity. Yet if you pay close attention, identity does come up in the mistborn trilogy, warbreaker, and stormlight as well as i think other works. Stormlight is also meant to be an epic fantasy like Wheel of Time. You are not going to get all your answers in the first book. That is not how epic fantasy works. If you wish to disregard WoB to gain a further understanding of his work, then get to studying the books you do like and you will find much of the same. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[IndigoAjah]

JK Rowling's Magic is simply never explained, just saying

[king of nowhere]

It's not about needing, it's about wanting.

If I care for a story, I want to know what's behind the next hill, what would happen if some specific things were done, the how and the why of things. And the author has better come up with satisfying and exhaustive explanation if he wants to keep me enthralled. I may stop liking a story if there are no good answers to be found. Even if I liked it in the first place. And I must stress that the story-did-not-need-those-answers. They were left out of the book because the book would have become a boring piece of info drop for like 90% of readers if those stuff was put into it. I want to know it anyway. If I like something, I want to go deep.

 

To me your attitude makes as much sense as eating some wonderful food and not wanting more of it.

 

But hey, people are different, have different tastes and look for different things. With your attitude, it's no wonder you don't like sanderson - in fact, I'm surprised you're liking the stormlight archive, because it goes deep. And, I'm gritting my teeth saying it, but you will probably like terry goodkind, for some of the very reasons I don't like him. At least if you don't mind the author using the books to propagate his political views, and crafting all the world in a way to make those views right.

[natc]

JK Rowling's Magic is simply never explained, just saying

Plus you could probably triple the length of every book in the cosmere saga trying to explain absolutely everything.

Nobody does that. It's ridiculous. We want to read fantasy novels with intricate magic here, not a magi-science textbook.

Now if he wants to make an actual separate textbook we'll be all for it. But squeezing it into the stories really won't work. Why would anyone just spontaneously start explaining this stuff for a few hours anyway?

Edited January 9, 2016 by natc

[scifan]

It's difficult to be sworn to protect others, and then fight everyone who possibly threaten's you...

 

Kaladin's been wary of giving too much information to people he doesn't trust for 2 full books now and in some cases when someone has demonstrated fairly great trust in him. He's not going to go beat up the guard that's struggling to pull his mace out... He's going to be quiet and standoffish... I fully expect that Roshone will be in the building and will recognize him... Also, remember that Kaladin's sworn he won't be put in prison again... it will be interesting to see how things go if Roshone tries to thrown perceived power around...  I suspect summoning Sil as a blade may significantly alter perceptions... Kaladin isn't generally boastful;  arrogant - yes, boastful -  no.

 

I like Kaladin but that's just me. I kind of like it when a character has flaw's and doesn't become suddenly perfect over a short period of time. Kaladin's had some perceived growth/knowledge increases that didn't seem warranted in the past and I can't say I LIKE all of his behaviors.  But I do appreciate the character and in my opionion, development doesn't always mean improvement.  Sometimes realism can be achieved when there's more of "a cycle" where they improve, stumble, fall, and then improve again with ties to the events in the previous cycle.

 

Also - good point about Kohlinar - he should have swung by Kohlinar on the way to Hearthstone since it's pretty much directly on the way from the shattered plains... Wiki map - http://goo.gl/vyGyG7

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Yeah, everyone has said what I wanted to say, in regards to defending Kal.

I, personally, am someone who has suffered clinical depression since I was 8 years old. Didnt get any medication for it for a long time, til about 16, when sh*t got real, real bad. I dont understand how people dont get that depression doesnt just GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU YOU WON SOME FIGHTS! Ive won a lot of fights, and yes, you get a temporary burst of endorphins and dopamine, it doesnt last. And soon again comes the deep depression, which effects EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT YOU HAVE! It effects every single decision you make. It guides every action you take!

Just because your sad, doesnt mean you know what deep depression feels like. Stop acting like you do. Kal is a fantastic toon. He represents what you will never understand. He has EVERY reason to act the wat he does. And I applaud a character who shows correct signs of depression, and doesnt just get over it because SOME good things happened to him. I completely relate to how he feels when he is incapable of feeling happy. The chemicle imbalance in his brain WONT ALLOW IT! The OP shows his complete ignorance of this.

Sorry, but I feel very close to this.

EDIT: People need to understand, that asserting someone is lacking in understanding and knowledge (aka Ignorant) on a subject, is not an attack on their personal character. Thank you.

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[maxal]

Yeah, everyone has said what I wanted to say, in regards to defending Kal.

I, personally, am someone who has suffered clinical depression since I was 8 years old. Didnt get any medication for it for a long time, til about 16, when sh*t got real, real bad. I dont understand how people dont get that depression doesnt just GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU YOU WON SOME FIGHTS! Ive won a lot of fights, and yes, you get a temporary burst of endorphins and dopamine, it doesnt last. And soon again comes the deep depression, which effects EVERY SINGLE THOUGHT YOU HAVE! It effects every single decision you make. It guides every action you take!

Just because your sad, doesnt mean you know what deep depression feels like. Stop acting like you do. Kal is a fantastic toon. He represents what you will never understand. He has EVERY reason to act the wat he does. And I applaud a character who shows correct signs of depression, and doesnt just get over it because SOME good things happened to him. I completely relate to how he feels when he is incapable of feeling happy. The chemicle imbalance in his brain WONT ALLOW IT! The OP shows his complete ignorance of this.

Sorry, but I feel very close to this.

 

Not wanting the next book to further explore the ramifications of Kaladin's depression to the extend where it was in the current book does not mean depressive characters should never be featured into work of fiction and more importantly it does not mean individuals suffering from depression should forever be doomed to a life of misery. It simply means some of us feels this subject has been broached enough for the time being and it would be nice to switch the focus to other issues arising within other characters.

 

We are all different individuals here and we are not all going to enjoy the same arcs. The Stormlight Archive also happens to be a multi-POV epic fantasy story: not everyone will enjoy reading the same characters. Kaladin is a character who has had more exposure than others, it is justified for many readers to wish for a change here.

 

I would however prefer if people chose to voice their opinion without seeing the need to be condescending. Simply because an individual did not personally experienced depression does not remove him from the right to comment on a character in a book. It could be they don't understand, as you say, but personally attacking the individual is not going to help. Explaining things, calmly without resorting to personal attacks however may help understand, but if someone genuinely does not enjoy reading Kaladin, then it belongs to him (or her). Agree to disagree then.

 

Also if a poster attacks, unjustly, your favorite character, the best approach is to try to explain the character better, to help them find an angle where they will enjoy this character more, not say their cold reaction to this character story arc is unwarranted and ridiculous. It also does not justify personal attacks against this poster. Worst, do not correlate this individual's reaction to real life individuals thinking this poster is out to create prejudice against them or you personally.

 

In other words, ranting against a character is one thing, ranting against a real human being who hides behind a pseudonym of whom you know next to nothing of is another one entirely. 

[king of nowhere]

 I dont understand how people dont get that depression doesnt just GO AWAY BECAUSE YOU YOU WON SOME FIGHTS! Ive won a lot of fights, and yes, you get a temporary burst of endorphins and dopamine, it doesnt last.

Simply because most people don't know much about depression. I am interested in all sciences - including medicine - and I have read a lot of stuff, yet kaladin is virtually my only source of knowledge on how depression works. That, and real people suffering of depression asserting that kaladin is a good representation of how it feels. I'd guess people either are medics/phsycologists, or they have a loved one suffering from depression, or they know almost nothing about it.

[IndigoAjah]

Simply because most people don't know much about depression. I am interested in all sciences - including medicine - and I have read a lot of stuff, yet kaladin is virtually my only source of knowledge on how depression works. That, and real people suffering of depression asserting that kaladin is a good representation of how it feels. I'd guess people either are medics/phsycologists, or they have a loved one suffering from depression, or they know almost nothing about it.

Or both the first two, or have had depressive issues themselves. Or all of the above, depression is pretty poorly understood and very different for lots of people

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Maxal: "We are all different individuals here and we are not all going to enjoy the same arcs. The Stormlight Archive also happens to be a multi-POV epic fantasy story: not everyone will enjoy reading the same characters. Kaladin is a character who has had more exposure than others, it is justified for many readers to wish for a change."

I wholly disagree. I enjoy every chapter. Even if that character enrages me. Dont get why you think you are better equipped to write this epic fantasy, go ahead, give it a shot. Ill give you some futuresight. NONE of you are.

"I would however prefer if people chose to voice their opinion without seeing the need to be condescending. Simply because an individual did not personally experienced depression does not remove him from the right to comment on a character in a book. It could be they don't understand, as you say, but personally attacking the individual is not going to help. Explaining things, calmly without resorting to personal attacks however may help understand, but if someone genuinely does not enjoy reading Kaladin, then it belongs to him (or her). Agree to disagree then."

I dont agree. If a large group of people, who are completely ignorant of a subject, choose to display their ignorance, Im going to kick their legs out from under them(metaphorically speaking of course). Why should I not voice my opinion because it a little more passionate than someone else's? That makes no sense. Logically, I have more of a right to comment on a on something Ive persoanlly experienced (not slavery and my brothers death, but serious depression that doesnt stop or go away), than someone who has ZERO experience, and no knowledge on the subject.

I wont apologize for my passion. But I am sorry you mistook it for anger.

"Also if a poster attacks, unjustly, your favorite character, the best approach is to try to explain the character better, to help them find an angle where they will enjoy this character more, not say their cold reaction to this character story arc is unwarranted and ridiculous. It also does not justify personal attacks against this poster. Worst, do not correlate this individual's reaction to real life individuals thinking this poster is out to create prejudice against them or you personally."

Honestly, I dont want them to understand the chatacter better. It's a fictional toon. I want them to understand their ignorance of the subject better. And to be perfectly honest, I may have had passion behind my words, but I felt I explained Kals position well enpugh for anyone to comprehend.

About not taking it personally, and how I shouldn't think the poster is being prejudice towards people suffering from severe depression, well I simply dont agree with that either. They may not KNOW, or FEEL like they are engendering ignorance toward the condition, BUT THEY ARE. It encourages others to feel its okay to make ignorant remarks as well. We've seen this throughout history if you need evidence of it.

"In other words, ranting against a character is one thing, ranting against a real human being who hides behind a pseudonym of whom you know next to nothing of is another one entirely."

I agree, ranting against a character is one thing (utterly POINTLESS). Arguing against a pseudonym of a person I know next to nothing about, excpet the exact subject they have DISPLAYED OPENLY their ignorance towards, IS another (worthwhile, imo).

Edit** I also do agree tht Kal shouldnt constantly be the main focus, but not because hes depressed. But because I want MORE toons!

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Garfield]

M

I agree, ranting against a character is one thing (utterly POINTLESS). Arguing against a pseudonym of a person I know next to nothing about, excpet the exact subject they have DISPLAYED OPENLY their ignorance towards, IS another (worthwhile, imo).

 

 

 

 

Ah, and you are the allknowing judge on who is ignorant and who is not..

 

Yeah, great......

[DreamEternal]

Honestly, the first post in this thread was highly sensationalistic and more than a little ignorant in my opinion. That does not mean it merited personal attacks or that Yodeler's post is not a great overreaction as well.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Honestly, the first post in this thread was highly sensationalistic and more than a little ignorant in my opinion. That does not mean it merited personal attacks or that Yodeler's post is not a great overreaction as well.

How did I attack his person? I simply said, with passion, that he is dispalying his ignorance with the post. Not an attack on his person, but a comment on his intellect and the obvious lack of understanding in the subject.

Ah, and you are the allknowing judge on who is ignorant and who is not..

Yeah, great......

What are you talking about? Is it not obvious that the OP is very ignorant on this subject? He displays it with fabulous style of the ignorant, . And no, Im no such all knowing being, not even anything like a Sam Harris or Hitchens, but you dont need to be some genius to spot ignorance in a subject you are steeped in. I dont think I can lay this out any more clearly.

*EDIT:Schpellin, Graymmer sorry Max, thought tht second comment was from you lmao.

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Garfield]

What are you talking about? Is it not obvious that the OP is very ignorant on this subject? He displays it with fabulous style of the ignorant, Maxal.

 

 

 

The  level of entitlement as the opinion police of this forum and the impertinence you display while trying to enforce your superiority complex this is intolerable.

 

 

The only ignorant person in this thread is you.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Garfield

[maxal]

The Ninja Yodeler, you have to accept people will disagree with you and that no, it does not mean they are bad persons. 

 

Nobody here claimed they were better equipped to write this epic fantasy, people have simply expressed their preferences. You or anybody else is not allowed to pass judgment on what another individual prefers to read. 

 

Your right to have an opinion and to state it with passion ends where the right of other persons to be treated with respect starts. You wish for people to treat your words with the respect you think they deserve? Start be doing the same yourself. Someone is guilty of misjudging a character and you believe you are capable to offer a better perspective? Phrase it in a non-aggressive non-confrontational way. Yelling at people will never get you anywhere interesting and certainly is the worst way to pass your opinion.

 

We are all entitled to enjoy or not a character arc. This belongs to us and to only us. You do not have the right to call people out for not enjoying all of Kaladin's chapters or for wishing the focus on him would lessen. They have the right to feel this way and while you have the right to feel angered at these thoughts, you have the duty to treat all respondent with respect.

 

You also can't judge of a poster's personal experience based on their word: a lot may be left out and how we read the characters often is tied to our own personal experience. In other words, simply because a person seems to misunderstand depression does not mean this individual never experienced it: it means their experience is different than yours. There are enough posters who come forwards stating they behavioral pattern would be different than Kaladin. 

 

Don't assume on your interlocutors until you know. You may be surprised at what you would find: impressions often are terribly deceiving.

 

Good talkin to you Maxal. I really do enjoy it. Please dont think Im angry or anything like that. I'm really not. I do just get passionate, but Im sitting here yelling at my tablet or anything.

 

See this is better. I understand you are angry at reading people display what may be ignorance towards Kaladin. I feel just the same when people do it with Adolin. However, this anger (or whatever feeling is inhabiting you) is better used trying to construct a cohesive post where you would explain why some posters are wrong. 

 

I understand emotion-filled reactions. I may not understand depression on an intimate level, but I understand emotions and the need to rant against something which angers or affects us deeply. However experience has taught me it is unlikely to bring the desired results.

 

What will bring you results is to explain it without attacking the person who wrote it. I understand it was not your intention, but your posts are currently being read this way. Attack the words, not the person behind the words: give everyone the benefit of doubt. Assume your interlocutor is not out there to get to you. I know this is hard, trust me, I know, but try. And try. Again.

 

I am sure many posters would like to read your analysis and your thoughts on Kaladin's characters. I am sure you can help many understand him better, so do it, but leave anything sounding like an attack in your head. 

 

And yes, the initial post was a rant. However responding to a rant by a rant won't produce anything positive. 

 

No hard feelings on my part. 

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Maxal "The Ninja Yodeler, you have to accept people will disagree with you and that no, it does not mean they are bad persons."

I never once said he was a bad person. I didnt make any judgments on his character man, I made judgments on his intellect.

"However, this anger (or whatever feeling is inhabiting you) is better used trying to construct a cohesive post where you would explain why some posters are wrong."

Dude (!), that is exactly what I did. Just because you choose to focus on my passion, and not the evidence I propositioned as to why he is ignorant, doesnt mean I didnt coherently, and accurately argue my point. Simple as that.

" What will bring you results is to explain it without attacking the person who wrote it."

Again, calling someone ignorant IS NOT ATTACKING THEM lol. Its stating that they are without the prerequisite knowledge to comment on the subject. Do you think someone who knows nothing about geology should have a legitimate standpoint on commenting on the age of the earth? Because I sure as hell dont, lol.

"Attack the words, not the person behind the words: give everyone the benefit of doubt."

AGAIN, I did NOT attack his person, I specifically attacked his comments about Kal being a whiny, mopey sad guy(paraphrasing). I didnt call him a piece a crap,(not the word I would use if I were to call someone something ), I said he is ignorant on the subiect, and proceeded to layout the reasons why. How is that not EXACTLY what you think should be done ( which I agree with by the way. YAY we agree on something Max!)

"but leave anything sounding like an attack in your head. "

Honestly, you just pinpointed a weakness of mine. It is hard for me to not let people know exactly how I feel in a discussion/debate. And yes, I admit, I get a LITTLE overboard at times. And yeah, no hard feelings at all. I love this stuff.

Edited January 9, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler