natc Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Yeah, I'm pretty sure being in need of psychiatric help is part of the job requirements. I can't really fault a man with severe depression issues being unable to entirely overcome his problems by himself after the end of the world kicking in overnight and everything he knew and loved that hasn’t already died by now quite likely dead as we speak. Honestly a guy without depression could easily be huddled in a corner in total shock at this point. Kaladin is surprisingly stable considering. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Well ... being broken in one way or the other seems to be a prerequisite for investiture to take a hold on you, doesnt it? Yeah I'm slightly confused on this particular point myself. [spoilerS] Shallan had pattern when she was just a little girl before she killed her mom. So how broken could a child not exposed to any particular traumatic event that we know of be? Now I seem to remember Syl saying to Kal 'silly, they were all like that' when he was talking about himself compared to the old radiants. Now it could be that Spren notice individuals and watch them and attach themselves when the chance for investiture arises after said break, but then that wouldn't explain Shallans ability to call pattern as a shard blade at that time. So now I'm not sure which is true, though I still think you have to be broken in some way to become a radiant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Now it could be that Spren notice individuals and watch them and attach themselves when the chance for investiture arises after said break, but then that wouldn't explain Shallans ability to call pattern as a shard blade at that time. So now I'm not sure which is true, though I still think you have to be broken in some way to become a radiant. I was under the impression that Syl had already taken hold in Kaladins mind when he started to feel attracted to the spear and fighting for some "irrational" reason and she was the reason, that his first attempt to handle a spear felt just "right" to him. Subconsciously knowing that using a weapon to protect people and stuff being his eventual destiny. I thought that was Syls influence, that was coaxing him towards becoming a fighter instead of a surgeon. That was before Roshone started to make life for Kaladins family miserable, when the old citylords daughter was still his playing companion. At that time he had some seasonal mood problems, that was all, just like a lot of humans here get the blues in winter, when the days are short. That s nothing really serious. Edited January 7, 2016 by Garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Portz Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Perhaps children are "broken" per se, as they are not fully formed ... *THINK* *inviteslogicsprenstothekindergarten* Well ... being broken in one way or the other seems to be a prerequisite for investiture to take a hold on you, doesnt it? Yeah I'm slightly confused on this particular point myself. [spoilerS] Shallan had pattern when she was just a little girl before she killed her mom. So how broken could a child not exposed to any particular traumatic event that we know of be? Now I seem to remember Syl saying to Kal 'silly, they were all like that' when he was talking about himself compared to the old radiants. Now it could be that Spren notice individuals and watch them and attach themselves when the chance for investiture arises after said break, but then that wouldn't explain Shallans ability to call pattern as a shard blade at that time. So now I'm not sure which is true, though I still think you have to be broken in some way to become a radiant. Edited January 7, 2016 by Atastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I was under the impression that Syl had already taken hold in Kaladins mind when he started to feel attracted to the spear and fighting for some "irrational" reason and she was the reason, that his first attempt to handle a spear felt just "right" to him. Subconsciously knowing that using a weapon to protect people and stuff being his eventual destiny. I thought that was Syls influence, that was coaxing him towards becoming a fighter instead of a surgeon. That was before Roshone started to make life for Kaladins family miserable, when the old citylords daughter was still his playing companion. At that time he had some seasonal mood problems, that was all, just like a lot of humans here get the blues in winter, when the days are short. That s nothing really serious. It's definitely not her. A nahel bond can't do anything of the sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Sorry, but I dont want to read a clinically depressed main character, who is unable to overcome the condition at least to some major extent in an adventure novel. This is not some existentialist family drama, where a main character like that is suitable. I strongly disagree with you on the suitability of fantasy to explore these issues then. To me, exploration of real life important issues is a RESPONSIBILITY of Spec Fic. I personally have no interest in wasting my time reading a book that doesn't try to do this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 It's definitely not her. A nahel bond can't do anything of the sort. Yeah, I am pretty sure she was attracted to those qualities in Kaladin, not vice versa, and she even says that she wasn't the cause of his skill with the spear until she appeared to him, just that she was on the lookout for him or someone like him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Nope, Shallan knew that, it was what Jasnah suspected after her research in the library, that the parshmen/parshendi are voidbringers in a different form and can turn back into voidbringers. It was this information of supposedly dead Jasnah, that Shallan was so eager to bring to the scholars she hoped to find at the Shattered Plains. The only reason why Kaladin didn t leave immediately was that they had to wait for the other contingents from the Shattered Plains to bring with them more charged spheres. The plans for his departure should have been made in the debriefing, that should have happened immediately after their arrival. In a few days there would have been time to fix him a provisional Captain's uniform at the very least and he should not have gone unarmed, as he can't draw a shardblade on everyone who causes him any kind of minor trouble. And he needed a written authorisation by Elhokar that puts him in charge of generally any action connected to everstorms or voidbringer attacks (if that helps at all). Honestly, I'm a person with a tendency for depression, I know what it does, but in a situation like that the stress of possibly finding the parents dead should rather turn to anger and defiance than to depressed self pity. Why SHOULD his depression react in any predetermined way to a such an awful stimulus? Not everyone with depression has the same or even remotely similar reactions or symptoms... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 And on the subject of Kaladin's depression, he's handling it quite well. Having something that needs to be done is helping. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Honestly, I'm a person with a tendency for depression, I know what it does, but in a situation like that the stress of possibly finding the parents dead should rather turn to anger and defiance than to depressed self pity.You seem to have great difficulty with the idea of other people not thinking in the same way as you do, if you think it is not perfectly natural to be gloomy when your homeland was ravaged by terribly unnatural forces.The mere fact he is carrying on despite it all and trying to find out how much survived is a sign of great strenght, and even though his perspective is bleak he still is lucid enough to continue his mission. I, for one, liked how this chapter was writen. I don't care for how depressed Kaladin is, the fact he does not give up is a big enough display of defiance for me. If he was not in the brink of despair, the disaster would lose its weight. It is the beggining of the Armaggedon we are talking about, and the good guys started to act years too late. EDIT: On another, mostly unrelated note, I agree Kaladin is likely to be a stormlight addict. Edited January 7, 2016 by DreamEternal 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Yeah, I am pretty sure she was attracted to those qualities in Kaladin, not vice versa, and she even says that she wasn't the cause of his skill with the spear until she appeared to him, just that she was on the lookout for him or someone like him I know I'm just wonderring what the criteria for a KR is. I mean do they HAVE to be broken? Or are most Spren that are bonding doing so after they already should have found and bonded the person. I remember reading that some were panicked by the realization that another desolation was coming. Some of these bonds are acts of desperation in an attempt to survive since they were so reticent after the betrayal. Or there is a more poetic explanation escaping me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I know I'm just wonderring what the criteria for a KR is. I mean do they HAVE to be broken? Or are most Spren that are bonding doing so after they already should have found and bonded the person. I remember reading that some were panicked by the realization that another desolation was coming. Some of these bonds are acts of desperation in an attempt to survive since they were so reticent after the betrayal. Or there is a more poetic explanation escaping me. The implication is that they have to be broken, and to me that implies that Shallan's childhood had its issues before the whole mum death thing and her story is even sadder than we thought, which makes me sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I am forgetting the WoB but being broken is a subjective thing. You do not have to go through what Kelsier, or Kaladin did to be "broken" enough to take in investiture. The exact extent however i do not believe has ever been defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 You have to go through something that creates an extremely abnormal emotional response in yourself, something that changes how you look on life from that time forward. This theoretically can be a happy emotional response, although I would assume that negative events are more common. The emotional response changes who you are on a fundamental level, cracking your Spiritweb-your spiritual aspect, your personality and such-which allows Investiture to come in. Allomancers, especially in the original series, go through intense torture, almost to the brink of death, to be able to use Allomancy. Anyway, to become a Radiant, not only must your Spiritweb crack, but there must be some 'aspect' of Honor (protection, truth, unification of men, etc.) that you hold dear, something that, especially after the crack in your Spiritweb, shapes what you see as desirable in others, something that shapes everything that you do, until you and that part of Honor are inseparable, and that to go against it would mean to go against everything you are. Sorry, I tend to get philosophical when I talk about Shardic theory. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 You have to go through something that creates an extremely abnormal emotional response in yourself, something that changes how you look on life from that time forward. This theoretically can be a happy emotional response, although I would assume that negative events are more common. The emotional response changes who you are on a fundamental level, cracking your Spiritweb-your spiritual aspect, your personality and such-which allows Investiture to come in. Allomancers, especially in the original series, go through intense torture, almost to the brink of death, to be able to use Allomancy. Anyway, to become a Radiant, not only must your Spiritweb crack, but there must be some 'aspect' of Honor (protection, truth, unification of men, etc.) that you hold dear, something that, especially after the crack in your Spiritweb, shapes what you see as desirable in others, something that shapes everything that you do, until you and that part of Honor are inseparable, and that to go against it would mean to go against everything you are. Sorry, I tend to get philosophical when I talk about Shardic theory. So upvote for a very well written philosophical talk, but i do feel the need to point out Vin was snapped as a baby due to a traumatic birth on part of her mother. So I do not believe Vin was cognitively aware enough at that moment to have an abnormal emotional response and changed her outlook on life. She just nearly died is all lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 You have to go through something that creates an extremely abnormal emotional response in yourself, something that changes how you look on life from that time forward. This theoretically can be a happy emotional response, although I would assume that negative events are more common. The emotional response changes who you are on a fundamental level, cracking your Spiritweb-your spiritual aspect, your personality and such-which allows Investiture to come in. Allomancers, especially in the original series, go through intense torture, almost to the brink of death, to be able to use Allomancy. Anyway, to become a Radiant, not only must your Spiritweb crack, but there must be some 'aspect' of Honor (protection, truth, unification of men, etc.) that you hold dear, something that, especially after the crack in your Spiritweb, shapes what you see as desirable in others, something that shapes everything that you do, until you and that part of Honor are inseparable, and that to go against it would mean to go against everything you are. Sorry, I tend to get philosophical when I talk about Shardic theory. There is never a problem with being philosophical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok sorry about that, true enough, should count to ten and breath before responding. Kaladin didn't leave earlier b/c they didn't find out that the parshmen would be transformed by the the everstorm until after Dalinar bonded the Stormfather. And he didn't do that until they had been there for a week or so. Also I don't think a single pouch full of spheres is going to hurt anything considering the Alethi had been harvesting gem hearts bigger than your fist for years while on the shattered plains.. If there was such a thing as Wells Fargo on this world the Alethi warcamps would be its location. . In addition: When they first arrived at Urithiru there were not enough infused spheres left. All spheres were used for light and bringing those to Urithiru who came from the warcamps after the call there arrived. And even given those were faster than a big army it surely took a few days (up to five days possibly?) until they were brought to Urithiru through the Oathgate (which needs Stormlight to function, it does). Only then and with Elokhar arrived there could be talk about giving 'left over' infused spheres to anybody (or Kaladin). . Sorry, but I dont want to read a clinically depressed main character, who is unable to overcome the condition at least to some major extent in an adventure novel. This is not some existentialist family drama, where a main character like that is suitable. . Please don't feel insulted but you might just skip Kaladin's scenes when they are bothering you that much? . Problem is, right now the majority of the Radiant characters have some sort of psychiatric hangup. Renarin, Shallan and Kaladin, all three struggle with some sort of mental condition. And Dalinar is apparently a reformed and recovering Thrill addict. Then we have some nut case Skybreakers on the loose, too, apparently.. So there were already answers to this I'd like to add that having some *breaks* in their souls is prerequisite for having access to investiture: IRONCAF In what ways is the process of becoming an allomantic savant like body building or other exercise? BRANDON SANDERSON [Paraphrasing] That is not an inapt metaphor for it. It's like a wedge gets in the soul and cracks it, and investiture can fill it up. IRONCAF And using allomancy breaks it further? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. IRONCAF Do other magic systems in the Cosmere function in a similar way? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. IRONCAF Which ones? Will we see them soon? BRANDON SANDERSON I'm going to have to RAFO that. source (emphasizes mine) . I thought of another WoB but couldn't find it now. On Scadrial it's Snapping, on Roshar it seems (at least for some) the need to have gone through some traumatic experience (as did Kaladin as well as Shallan; what happened to Renarin is unknown as far as I know, but it might be related to his epilepsy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humpty Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Nope, Shallan knew that, it was what Jasnah suspected after her research in the library, that the parshmen/parshendi are voidbringers in a different form and can turn back into voidbringers. It was this information of supposedly dead Jasnah, that Shallan was so eager to bring to the scholars she hoped to find at the Shattered Plains. The only reason why Kaladin didn t leave immediately was that they had to wait for the other contingents from the Shattered Plains to bring with them more charged spheres. The plans for his departure should have been made in the debriefing, that should have happened immediately after their arrival. In a few days there would have been time to fix him a provisional Captain's uniform at the very least and he should not have gone unarmed, as he can't draw a shardblade on everyone who causes him any kind of minor trouble. And he needed a written authorisation by Elhokar that puts him in charge of generally any action connected to everstorms or voidbringer attacks (if that helps at all). Honestly, I'm a person with a tendency for depression, I know what it does, but in a situation like that the stress of possibly finding the parents dead should rather turn to anger and defiance than to depressed self pity. Shallan might have suspected that the everstorm would transform the parshmen but they didn't know for certain. The only thing Shallan and Jasnah knew for certain at the end of Way of Kings was that the parshmen were voidbringers. They didn't know for sure how they would be transformed until after Dalinar came back from bonding the stormfather and he said, It is worse than we feared the stormfather confirmed it the worlds parshmen will be transformed by the everstorm etc etc. second to the last scene in the book. Couldn't remember the exact quote as I do not have my copy on me at the moment however it should be easy to find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humpty Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Count to ten... HE'S GOT A SHARDBLADE! HIT THE DECK! Jk Ahem. I noticed myself that Kaladin spent the Everstorm in a little Shardeblade-formed cave like the one he stayed in with Shallan, but evidence suggests that his spheres did not fill up. Stormlight is likely a highstorm-only thing. Which means it's only Honor, not Odium's power. True enough however dont forget about the unplanned highstorm that the stormfather summoned to battle the everstorm/kill everybody. That highstorm would have infused all the gems at the Alethi warcamps. On a side note.. I am suprised that Kaladins depression is what everybody seems to find most annoying about him. Personally I find his know-it-all atitude the most annoying thing about him not the depression I can understand the depression part given the life he has had to live recently. Another side note.. Sorry to debunk the Syl was with Kaladin from childhood theory however, remember back when Kaladin first joined bridge 4 Syl stated that Kaladin trying to protect kids that reminded him of Tein was what drew her to him. Therefore we know that Syl didn't started following him until after Kaladin lost his brother in Amarams army. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Jasnah explicitly states in the epilogue of WoR that she did NOT expect the ever storm to transform the Parshendi. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humpty Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Jasnah explicitly states in the epilogue of WoR that she did NOT expect the ever storm to transform the Parshendi. BOOM! and right you are I had forgotten that tidbit. Maybe I should now make fun of myself for not remembering that. Wonder if the Moderators would still give me a spanking for making fun of myself.. Edited January 8, 2016 by Humpty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 The only thing Shallan and Jasnah knew for certain at the end of Way of Kings was that the parshmen were voidbringers. Yes. And there were voidbringers as soon as the storm hit. Voidbringers with marbled skin like the parshmen and parshendi. The storm contained vicious red lightning. Count two and two together. Shallan is an intelligent person and the rest of the Radiants are not dumb either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted January 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 . In addition: When they first arrived at Urithiru there were not enough infused spheres left. All spheres were used for light and bringing those to Urithiru who came from the warcamps after the call there arrived. And even given those were faster than a big army it surely took a few days (up to five days possibly?) until they were brought to Urithiru through the Oathgate (which needs Stormlight to function, it does). Only then and with Elokhar arrived there could be talk about giving 'left over' infused spheres to anybody (or Kaladin). . . Please don't feel insulted but you might just skip Kaladin's scenes when they are bothering you that much? . . So there were already answers to this I'd like to add that having some *breaks* in their souls is prerequisite for having access to investiture: source (emphasizes mine) . I thought of another WoB but couldn't find it now. On Scadrial it's Snapping, on Roshar it seems (at least for some) the need to have gone through some traumatic experience (as did Kaladin as well as Shallan; what happened to Renarin is unknown as far as I know, but it might be related to his epilepsy). Honestly, I don t care what the author in a comment to the books writes. I will not read comments by the author to be able to understand what is going on in his stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 I thought the "broken" thing was explicit in the text? At the least, it's implied and certainly fits 100% of current Radiants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Honestly, I don t care what the author in a comment to the books writes. Then you are losing a lot of fascinating info and worldbuilding. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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