Logic problems, implausiblities

[Slaybalj]

There's a line through the middle though isn't there? So you could still write it with a single stroke, do the top half, mirror it for the bottom half then stroke through the middle to the next letter.

Is there? I always assumed it was lined paper. I guess that would work without lifting the pen, though it still seems sloppy to me.

[Pathfinder]

No, just similar in looks and same in function as all post medieval military clothing up to today. No padding as protection.

The padding is mentioned on Adolin when his shardplate is broken apart during his duel against 4 shardbearers. So at least in that case it is there. Perhaps for simplicity sake it wasn't mentioned every single time, just like it is not mentioned about the bridgemen putting their leather armor over their loin cloths every time they run with the bridge. 

[Leonardus]

From what we have seen all shardblades are unique weapons, its said in the books that flamestance is favored by shardbearers with shorter blades which could help offset the weight of the blade, as for smokestance well we haven't seen anyone use that with a shardblade so no idea, although to me it looks ideal to use with a long thin blade like a fencer(jasnah perhaps?).

[Pathfinder]

From what we have seen all shardblades are unique weapons, its said in the books that flamestance is favored by shardbearers with shorter blades which could help offset the weight of the blade, as for smokestance well we haven't seen anyone use that with a shardblade so no idea, although to me it looks ideal to use with a long thin blade like a fencer(jasnah perhaps?).

Adolin uses it against Eshonai at the end of WoR. It has to do with quick sharp jabs with the tip of the blade. I literally just finished a re-read of WoK and WoR which is why this is all so fresh in my mind

[Garfield]

From what we have seen all shardblades are unique weapons, its said in the books that flamestance is favored by shardbearers with shorter blades which could help offset the weight of the blade, as for smokestance well we haven't seen anyone use that with a shardblade so no idea, although to me it looks ideal to use with a long thin blade like a fencer(jasnah perhaps?).

 

 

The form of the shardblade shouldn t matter. The form of the blade in a steel blade determines how well the blade will cut or thrust and where the point of balance is (balance point further back means a nimbler, but weaker blade). For example curved steel blades are more or less cut only swords, thin, long blades like rapiers are mostly thrusting weapons that hardly cut.

 

In a shardblade the cutting and thrusting capacity doesn t come from the form or weight distribution of the blade. So here length of blade and handle is most important. The point of balance determines how the blade handles (the closer it is to the hilt, the more nimble the blade behaves).

Edited January 7, 2016 by Garfield

[Pathfinder]

The form of the shardblade shouldn t matter. The form of the blade in a steel blade determines how well the blade will cut or thrust and where the point of balance is (balance point further back means a nimbler, but weaker blade). For example curved steel blades are more or less cut only swords, thin, long blades like rapiers are mostly thrusting weapons that hardly cut.

 

In a shardblade the cutting and thrusting capacity doesn t come from the form or weight distribution of the blade. So here length of blade and handle as well as the point of balance is the only thing that matters.

It does when it is against another shardbearer. 

[Patrick Star]

Also, there's no problem with 1 handed shardblade fencing.

 

Alethi swordhandling has both 1 and 2 handed stances.

 

With the shardplate enhancing  your strength and the lightness of the shardblade, 1-handed wielding is viable in certain situations.

 

And since you have the free plate-covered arm, you can use that to do stuff like grab the opponent, hit their blade away from them (10 heartbeat window), or just punch them in the face.

[Oversleep]

I can only judge from my own, personal fencing experience with a 1.3 meter two handed longsword that weighs about 1.5 kilos.

 

It s quite unwieldy, slow and clumsy if you try to use a blade of that length one handed. Let's say a shardblade of 2 meters weighs approximately the same, 1.5 kilos, the greater length makes it even more unwieldy and unprecise to control in one hand. You need the leverage of two hands to move an object of that length with speed and precision.

Zahel said that Shardblade weights less than a regular longsword. And it's longer and broader. Shardplate provides additional strength not only to your arms, but also your hand and fingers, so I guess the grip is firmer and one can wield Shardblade one handed.

[Garfield]

Zahel said that Shardblade weights less than a regular longsword. And it's longer and broader. Shardplate provides additional strength not only to your arms, but also your hand and fingers, so I guess the grip is firmer and one can wield Shardblade one handed.

 

 

They were meant to be used with the support of stormlight or shardplate. Though some normal human shardblade owners don t have either.

[Alfa]

It depends very much on how much the Shardblades are weighting. I do fencing and swordfighting, and a Longsword is a bit shorter than a typical epee, but has about 140% of the epee's weight. An epee is a blink faster and is used one-handed.
Now, given I have a shardplate, I could take a typical renaisance "Bidehander" and wield it one-handed. A Shardblade seems to be a bit longer, and probably more than a bit lighter. It has the advantage, that cutting and thrusting is equally devastating. A well-trained shardbearer could use that to his advantage: even with longswords, you sometimes use them one handed (the one time I almost injured my friend with a longsword was while I was wielding it one-handed); and since a shardblade has more the weight of an epee (at least, with shardplate-enhancement) it is not that much a disadvantage in speed.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Alfa

[IndigoAjah]

just to add, on the whole "why wasn't Shallan's blade changing sizes the thing that made Kal think she was a Radiant" thing:

1) he can have multiple reasons. The fact that the blade didn't scream was RIGHT as a reason even if Kaladin's logic goes a bit to and fro on it. That doesn't mean he doesn't think of others - he suspected Shallan was a radiant in the chasms anyway, but the fact that she could handle a shardblade, at that time living shards being something Kaladin had no idea existed or were linked to Radiants, was the thing that made him decide she might not be. It is logical that the fact that he had it the wrong way round was on his mind once he knew about what a shardblade was.

2) Does Kaladin get a good look at Shallan cutting with a shard knife? I didn't think it was clear how close he was or focused he was on her in the text

[Mr Horrible]

Not fully true. One could very reasonably think she died, yet returned to life once Kaladin returned to his oaths and risked himself in a desperate attempt to save Elhokar.

The third oath was spoken when she was already restored, but the Stormfather was holding her back in the Cognitive Realm.

 

Minor SA3 spoilers:

Maybe, not if they have read the Kaladin excerpt from SA3, where Syl says "try to kill me again" instead of "kill me again".

 

On a more general level I don't really understand why breaking the bonds would cause spren to die. They would lose their consciousness in the physical realm due to breaking the Nahel bond however Syl's talked many times about what she has done in shadesmar when she wasn't bonded to Kaladin. Now the shardblades I understand due to the KR effectively trapping their spren in the physical realm by breaking their bonds while their spren were blades. Does the Nahel bond expose them to these vulnerabilities if the oaths are broken? Even so if spren are *mostly* representations of belief on the cognitive realm, wouldn't killing them involve forgetting?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Moogle
Please mark SA3 spoilers.

[IndigoAjah]

Surely being pre-bonded is different to dying? Syl was conscious in Shadesmar, right? But not in the physical realm. But if she dies she dies in both and loses consciousness. But she hasn't been bonded to a radiant before? And if she lost Kaladin in the physical realm and became stupid, she wouldn't be able to get back to Shadesmar anyway. Also, she may never have died at all

[Pathfinder]

2) Does Kaladin get a good look at Shallan cutting with a shard knife? I didn't think it was clear how close he was or focused he was on her in the text

I was just thinking this myself. I checked the part in the book, and Kaladin was standing at the base of the chasmfiend due to his damaged leg. Shallan climbs up the chasmfiend at first by herself. Then once at the top of the chasmfiend, she changes the shardblade to a dagger. After she carves the handholds and the recess into the wall, THEN Kaladin climbs up the chasmfiend and then the wall to join her. So I do not think it would be a stretch that he didn't see the change from where he stood, light headed from lack of blood and worried about a highstorm coming. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Garfield]

Surely being pre-bonded is different to dying? Syl was conscious in Shadesmar, right? But not in the physical realm. But if she dies she dies in both and loses consciousness. But she hasn't been bonded to a radiant before? And if she lost Kaladin in the physical realm and became stupid, she wouldn't be able to get back to Shadesmar anyway. Also, she may never have died at all

 

 

Are the dead spren really not conscious? After all, they scream in the heads of Radiants that touch them. I would imagine that they are rather in a state of undead agony.

[Garfield]

I was just thinking this myself. I checked the part in the book, and Kaladin was standing at the base of the chasmfiend due to his damaged leg. Shallan climbs up the chasmfiend at first by herself. Then once at the top of the chasmfiend, she changes the shardblade to a dagger. After she carves the handholds and the recess into the wall, THEN Kaladin climbs up the chasmfiend and then the wall to join her. So I do not think it would be a stretch that he didn't see the change from where he stood, light headed from lack of blood and worried about a highstorm coming. 

 

 

Indeed. And Kaladin should know that a blade of regular shardblade length (two meters) is completely unsuitable to climb up a wall of stone while cutting steps/handholds. You would never get the angle that you need to cut INTO the stone at an angle of something like close to 90 degrees.

[Pathfinder]

Indeed. And Kaladin should know that a blade of regular shardblade length (two meters) is completely unsuitable to climb up a wall of stone while cutting steps/handholds. You would never get the angle that you need to cut INTO the stone at an angle of something like close to 90 degrees.

That is a good point. It could be chocked up to the fact that Kaladin was out of sorts due to his injuries and loss of blood but upon reviewing the section he does quite clearly and steadily remind Shallan that she could use her shardblade to cut into the rock for handholds.

[Garfield]

That is a good point. It could be chocked up to the fact that Kaladin was out of sorts due to his injuries and loss of blood but upon reviewing the section he does quite clearly and steadily remind Shallan that she could use her shardblade to cut into the rock for handholds.

 

 

Yep. The fairly long thing he had used to slice up the belly of the chasmfiend only a short time earlier. He couldn't have archieved that with a shard-dagger and he probably would have wondered and remarked on it if she had handed him a dagger length shardblade.

 

I'd have to re-read that scene to see what exactly happened.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[Pathfinder]

So re-reading the rest of the passage, Kal never actually sees Shallan use the shardblade. She is up out of sight on the chasmfiend the entire time, so he never has a chance to see it as a dagger size. But that still doesn't explain how he could expect her to climb and cut handholds while holding what he would assume to be the sword the same size he held earlier when fighting the chasmfiend

[hoser]

For me, I would add:

1. Dalinar's confrontation with Amaram.  First, Amaram has no reason to admit to stealing Helaran's old sword and murdering Kaladin's men.  He lied about the sword that came with "Taln", but that does not prove that he lied about the other sword.  Second, Dalinar freeing Amaram with his Shardblade as a confessed murderer.  He has the drop on Amaram and can demand that Amaram give up his Shardblade. 
2. Szeth's final assassination attempt: He has somehow gotten there in the middle of a battle with the Voidbringers.  There are two huge storms that should not be happening.  He should know that his Truthlessness is false before attacking Dalinar.  He has to have either just flown there or have been traveling with the armies.  If he was with the armies, he could not have missed the news about the Voidbringers.  If he just flew there, he could not have missed the Voidbringer armies and the storms.  It would be one thing if his faith had never been shaken, but he had been ready to kill Mr. T before Mr. T made up his obvious lies.  I understand Brandon wanting that battle, but Szeth's behavior is really implausible to me. 

[Garfield]

 

For me, I would add:

1. Dalinar's confrontation with Amaram.  First, Amaram has no reason to admit to stealing Helaran's old sword and murdering Kaladin's men.  He lied about the sword that came with "Taln", but that does not prove that he lied about the other sword.

 

 

 

I think with Amaram the whole thing was about Amarams assumedly flawless honor and credibility. Once Dalinar had caught Amaram shamelessly lying about a shardblade he believed Kaladin's version of the story more than Amaram's.

 

When I remember correctly, this scene also happened after Kaladin had publicly demonstrated that he can handle himself against a shardbearer quite well and had turned down plate and blade a second time, when Adolin wanted to give both to him.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Garfield

[Alfa]

 

For me, I would add:

1. Dalinar's confrontation with Amaram.  First, Amaram has no reason to admit to stealing Helaran's old sword and murdering Kaladin's men.  He lied about the sword that came with "Taln", but that does not prove that he lied about the other sword.  Second, Dalinar freeing Amaram with his Shardblade as a confessed murderer.  He has the drop on Amaram and can demand that Amaram give up his Shardblade. 
2. Szeth's final assassination attempt: He has somehow gotten there in the middle of a battle with the Voidbringers.  There are two huge storms that should not be happening.  He should know that his Truthlessness is false before attacking Dalinar.  He has to have either just flown there or have been traveling with the armies.  If he was with the armies, he could not have missed the news about the Voidbringers.  If he just flew there, he could not have missed the Voidbringer armies and the storms.  It would be one thing if his faith had never been shaken, but he had been ready to kill Mr. T before Mr. T made up his obvious lies.  I understand Brandon wanting that battle, but Szeth's behavior is really implausible to me. 

 

 

 

To 2:

While Szeth can see that something goes extremely wrong, he still does not see (or refuses to see) what exactly goes wrong. He has no idea how voidbringers look like. He has no idea that the everstorm - even if he recognizes it as the everstorm - effectively means desolation. And since Szeth is heavily perturbed (effectively: really, really mad) at that moment, he does what he is supposed to do. He also does not give up his honorblade when a radiant is standing right before him, which would be the "logical" thing to do for him.

[IndigoAjah]

Amaram's reaction is very dodgy, he draws a shard on Dalinar, basically admitting his guilt