Theory: Who wrote "Sixty-two days, Death follows."

[zandi]

 I understand from her notes that it was a voidbringer that left that message.

 

 

Yes, she does say that, but Navani could be wrong in some of her assumptions.  It ain't over yet in 1174.  I just don't think a void bringer would want to issue a warning...

 

For instance: maybe she assumes ALL parshendi are void bringers for instance, and that is not true?  

 

I suppose we will find out soon enough though

 

 

Except Honor is a Shard. Being able to see into the future is part and parcel of the god business - and he isn't even that good at it. 

 

Right but he still sort of tries it- just because he's not good at it doesn't mean it is "bad". It is just not related to his mandate.

[marianmi]

For instance: maybe she assumes ALL parshendi are void bringers for instance, and that is not true?  

 

If (bonded) Parsh are generally voidbringers, I think it is because they can be influenced (maybe through their songs) by Odium (like kandra, koloss or inquisitors were influenced by Ruin). So this would mean all parshendi are voidbringers -- the only exception would be some that manage to fool Odium (like Kandra took out their spikes or Marsh was able to break free for a second from direct Ruin's influence). Of course, this is a very long shot and I might be very wrong  

[zandi]

I think I have to continue to agree to disagree - they could also therefore possibly be influenced by others than Odium.  At least some of them.

I'm just not convinced we have this wrapped up. About the only thing I am convinced of as far as the writing on the wall goes is: I strongly believe it is a warning, and 2) it is not a spren writer, and 3) They didn't see the writing on the wall - so to speak!     

 

I freely admit I could also be wrong   that's what makes it fun! 

[IceBaka]

Yes, she does say that, but Navani could be wrong in some of her assumptions.  It ain't over yet in 1174.  I just don't think a void bringer would want to issue a warning...

 

For instance: maybe she assumes ALL parshendi are void bringers for instance, and that is not true?  

 

 

Navani may believe the Parshendi are voidbringers at the time she writes the journal entry.  Jasnah is definitely convinced they are, and she's on her way to the Shattered Plains.  Most likely she'll persuade Navani, and this isn't that long before the entry is written.  Whether or not the Parshendi are voidbringers is a different question.

 

But if Navani believes they're voidbringers and she's indicating that a voidbringer left "the writing on the wall" - does that mean Navani will find evidence that a Parshendi scratched the note?

 

 

We don't have much at this stage, but I'm inclined to believe Dalinar wrote on the wall.  I think he did it subconsciously, perhaps with some external influence.

 

Look at what we know:

• Dalinar uncharacteristically - you might say, mysteriously - falls asleep.
• He's by himself for some time (I take the fire being out as evidence that several hours have elapsed rather than the fireplace being a secret entrance).
• Even though he's alone in the room, there are probably servants, guards, and others in the rooms and hallways leading to his room (getting there and away undetected would be difficult).
• His mind is already tainted by outside forces (visions during highstorms).
• The glyphs are written with a rock already in the room (if someone were sneaking in to leave a message, they probably would have brought tools to ensure they could).
• Dalinar reads the glyphs, but that doesn't mean he regularly writes them (that could account for Rushu's assessment that they're not well-drawn).

[zandi]

Good points - but if true ...Navani thinks Dalinar has become a void bringer "The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than its deadline. To foresee the future is of the Voidbringers."

[IceBaka]

Good points - but if true ...Navani thinks Dalinar has become a void bringer "The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than its deadline. To foresee the future is of the Voidbringers."

 

Not necessarily.  Navani may have evidence that suggests a Parshendi (or voidbringer), but they may be misunderstanding the evidence.

[marianmi]

OK, let's read again Navani's notes put head to head.

 

- out first clue was the parshendi.

- out second clue was the writing on the wall.

 

While Sanderson can hide a lot behind his words, I think reading Navani's diary head to head provides a good indication of the events that happened, written AFTER the events. So we have the notes from the future, and the chapters that show how events are unfolding.

 

* Based on those notes, I don't think the parshendi are responsible for the writing in the wall, otherwise the second clue would have been included in the first one...

 

* Navani's notes are referencing "the past 2 months", so this is the span of WoR. Can somebody determine how many days are in 2 months?

 

* Spren can hardy influence the physical (Syl was barely able to transport a few leaves, and Wyndle can do less), so I don't think it was a spren that left the message

 

* I think the consensus is that Voidbringers are the Parshendi. There are only few right now that think otherwise. There were no indications that there were any Parshmen around Dalinar when he had his vision. (To be honest, there are no indications that there were not.) But the message, predicting the future, is not of Honor, and according to current information, and as Navani mentions, is of Voidbringers. So, putting this together, one possible implication here is that the (potential) voidbringer that left that message is not Parsh - but maybe human.

Humans becoming voidbringers can be an interesting turn, with everyone thinking the Parshendi are.

 

* We all know Moash is set up for his revenge against some lighteyes. Truly hope it's not someone in the Kholin family... (his snapping at the king's guards and then sheepishly saying to Kaladin that he's right looks very very fishy to me...) Also hope it was not Moash the one that left the message... though another possibility is that Renarin was the one (and Dalinar knows something about it -- maybe Renarin being a voidbringer is Dalinar's curse lol -- ahem @weirywriter)

 

* While Sadeas looks a boring villain, it does not mean he will not find a way to truly be the villain Another interesting twist would be Sadeas actually succeeding in bringing down the Kholin family -- maybe he defeats Adolin in their bout (maybe by killing him too) -- this would definitely spark a war between the camps. This could be the pain, loss, etc that Navani talks about. And maybe while fighting, they all get attacked by the parshendi (in storm form, whatever that is ). Or maybe the parshendi join Dalinar's losing side, since Eshonai looks keen on having a friendly meeting with Dalinar. There are lots of possibilities here

 

So how many days are 2 months?

[shadewolf]

So how many days are 2 months?

 

well in roshar, it's 100 days, in real life that is a very complicated question to ask, it somewhere between 58-61

Edited January 16, 2014 by shadewolf

[marianmi]

well in roshar, it's 100 days, in really life that is a very complicated question to ask, it somewhere between 58-61

 

So this means Navani's notes are way past the 62 days deadline...

[Swimmingly]

So this means Navani's notes are way past the 62 days deadline...

Well, yes... You didn't think everybody was just gonna drop like a gull in a highstorm the moment the deadline passed, did you?

[marianmi]

Well, yes... You didn't think everybody was just gonna drop like a gull in a highstorm the moment the deadline passed, did you?

 

Well, it means that:

* WoR is not gonna end when Odium potentially shows up after 62 days

* events start happening immediately, otherwise she would have said maybe "past month" - which is the last 50 days, 12 days before the deadline expires.

[Isomere]

I think a spren did write it, but used Dalinar's hand for the dirty work. There is some evidence that a combination of splinter/cognitive entity can possess people, and I suspect Voidbringers are not the only things capable of doing it. Overall I lean towards a spren of the almighty using Dalinar's body for a time to get the message through.

I also love the idea of bond smiths receiving revelation, given the association with piety, guidance, and the location of Ishi's glyph (it is centered on the forehead of the spirit-head in the KR chart, a common symbol of True Sight and prescience)

Edited January 16, 2014 by Isomere

[hoser]

The source of the information could well be voidish, but that doesn't mean it is intended to hurt Dalinar.  I imagine that Odium hates his minions and they hate him right back.  So, if he's not watching carefully enough, they could do something to try to help Dalinar.

 

Of course, Odium could be behind it too, which might not be good. 

[The Count]

Well, surgebinding is returning to the world. Is it that much of a stretch to think Voidbinding is as well?

 

The glyphs predict the future and we are told a number of times that this is related to the voidbringers.

 

I definitely think that the writing is a result of someone voidbinding, whether intentionally or not.

 

At the end of the day, if a 'voidspren' can animate a stone giant, then I think it could also write those glyphs.

 

Either way.... The writing, in this case, is literally on the wall (sorry ).

[Swimmingly]

Well, it means that:

* WoR is not gonna end when Odium potentially shows up after 62 days

* events start happening immediately, otherwise she would have said maybe "past month" - which is the last 50 days, 12 days before the deadline expires.

For all we know, that was written after the whole fiasco was over, most likely during the events of a later book.

[zandi]

 

 

I think a spren did write it, but used Dalinar's hand for the dirty work. There is some evidence that a combination of splinter/cognitive entity can possess people, and I suspect Voidbringers are not the only things capable of doing it. Overall I lean towards a spren of the almighty using Dalinar's body for a time to get the message through.

I don't think Spren do human possession. I had an image of Patrick Swayze as the Spren and Whoppi Goldberg as Dalinar and it just didn't work for me...

 

Could be but I think it is unlikely....

 

 

 

For all we know, that was written after the whole fiasco was over, most likely during the events of a later book.

exactly.

[Beowulf25]

* it was not Szeth - he would not scratch stone, since stone is sacred

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that.

 

I personally don't think it refers to the arrival of Odium or the Everstorm.

 

From what we know of past desolations, they were long periods of time during which Odium tried to destroy mankind with monsters and whatnot. I suspect that the epigraph "but a thousand days and the Everstorm comes" just refers to when things start to happen. Also, I bet the thousandth day was when Taln showed up at the end of WoK.

[zandi]

I don't think it was Szeth - but he would scratch stone if whoever holds his oathstone ordered him to leave the message by scratching it in stone. He just wouldn't like it and would complain to himself about it.

[Arondell]

You know we don't know that Dalinar is the only one getting these visions, for all we know know the visions are broadcasted to all who are worthy and honorable, during highstorms.

 

 

I think it is fairly likely that others have been receiving the visions.

 

 

"That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices."

-Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death.  A middle-aged potter.  Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.

[Cheese Ninja]

[1173-6-5-1] (Shashahes, 1173) is 1000 days after the first epigraph.

Did Brandon ever say if the epilogue happened after all the other events in Way of Kings?

If it happened between other events of book, and Shashahes is in fact the day that Taln arrived, that would work best. 

 

If the epilogue happens after all the other events of Way of Kings, and its still Shashahes, I think we're too early in the year. 

 

If the 1000 days endpoint isn't a day of particular note (as in, not the day of Taln's arrival), or at least not for reasons we'd yet notice, that could work as well.

 

Hoid tells Dalinar that he's leaving for a while in chapter 54, which is the same chapter that Dalinar decides to ally with Sadeas, and a couple (or more?) weeks afterwards Hoid leaves the Shattered Plains (again?) after talking to Kaladin in chapter 57, and that was about 3 to 4 weeks before the the end of the book.  Since it's been mentioned before that Hoid can use Shadesmar to travel between places in the same world, he could have been in easily been in Kholinar the night of Taln's arrival, even if it was the near the date of either of those chapters.

 

Possible Scenario:

1. Hoid talks to Dalinar on the night of the feast in chapter 54, Hoid goes to Kholinar either that night or the next for Taln's arrival. [1173-6-5-1]

2. Hoid comes back in 3 weeks later and talks to Kaladin.

3. Battle of the Tower is 4 weeks after that on [7-2-2]. (The date given for the epigraph detailing Kaladin's chasm leap.)

4. Dalinar gets his "62 days, Death (broken) follows" message the next week.

5. Around 1173-8-5-x would be the end of that period.

6. The "these last two months" from Navani's Journal entry on the first day of 1174 begin. (Months 9 and 10, and she rounds down the remainder of month 8.)

 

A Major issue with this:  How does Hoid hide Taln for the seven weeks leading up the end of Way of Kings?  Granted, Taln is probably pretty tired and out of it, and might just be in the mood to take a several week nap, but what about the guards?  Does he somehow wipe the guard's memories, or bribe them into being quiet?  A weird guy showing up at your capital city's gates wielding an abnormal Shardblade and proclaiming himself one of the Heralds is the sort of news you would think would get back to the Dalinar and company on the Shattered Plains.

 

I'm not sure if I'll be happy or sad when I have concrete numbers for these dates and don't have to guess anymore.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Cheese Ninja

[Natans]

I fished this one in one of the WOR topics in the Tor Books site.

 

I think that Wetlandernw have a ARK copy of the book so you guys think that his comment could mean something ?

 

1. Wetlandernw

VIEW ALL BY WETLANDERNW | TUESDAY JANUARY 14, 2014 03:18PM EST | AMENDED ON TUESDAY JANUARY 14, 2014 03:29PM EST

So Carl, what was it we were going to discuss after you'd read WoR? I'll have to go look it up, if you don't remember it...

Huh. I just went and looked it up, and I can't for the life of me think what I wanted to discuss about the development of male literacy. Possibly something to do with a certain character using glyphs to write notes & letters? I dunno.

[hoser]

Implies a male wrote the glyphs in Dalinar's room?

[Natans]

"certain character using glyphs to write notes & letters"

 

Renarin ?

[Dros]

I think the message is a countdown to the parshendi transformation into whatever form they are scared of (void?). Who wrote it? I think it was a parshendi who volunteered to take on slave form in order to infiltrate the camp and deliver the message. Given the Alethi treatment of parshmen, it would be totally reasonable for them to ignore a parshman. "Nobody went in there!" "What about that parshman?" "As I said, nobody!"

 

It may have been more of a warning than a threat.

[Shardlet]

 

I fished this one in one of the WOR topics in the Tor Books site.

 

I think that Wetlandernw have a ARK copy of the book so you guys think that his comment could mean something ?

 

1. Wetlandernw

VIEW ALL BY WETLANDERNW | TUESDAY JANUARY 14, 2014 03:18PM EST | AMENDED ON TUESDAY JANUARY 14, 2014 03:29PM EST

So Carl, what was it we were going to discuss after you'd read WoR? I'll have to go look it up, if you don't remember it...

Huh. I just went and looked it up, and I can't for the life of me think what I wanted to discuss about the development of male literacy. Possibly something to do with a certain character using glyphs to write notes & letters? I dunno.

 

 

Wetlandernw is one of the beta readers for WoR. 

 

I think it is Szeth or Dalinar who wrote it.  As for problems with Szeth scratching it using stone, remember he frequently cuts through stone with his blade.  If he was that hung up on it, I'm fairly sure he could still be very successful in his fighting without cutting out chunks of stone walls to use as weapons.