SpringWarmCold Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 This would be an interesting twist. But I think it would be totally out of character from what we've seen for Elhokar to do something like this. He doesn't seem to be a behind the scenes manipulator. oh definitely. but i think there is more to him than what we have seen. what we have seen of him shows that he isn't the strongest of leaders. but he is a King. he probably hates being in the situation that Dalinar has forced him into and he isn't in control. i think he is going to snap at some point with his paranoia or by attempting to take control. there is just something about his characters that leads me to believe that there is a lot more to him than we have seen so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 I agree he probably has more we have not seen. But I think the wall writer can't be someone who has regular access to Dalinar - this is the only way /best way they can reach him. Also - E. could just directly give him an ultimatum - he wouldn't have to go through such shenanigans. He is the King after all...and he's on ok terms with Dalinar. Dalinar would listen to an ultimatum directly given from his King. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 This would be an interesting twist. But I think it would be totally out of character from what we've seen for Elhokar to do something like this. He doesn't seem to be a behind the scenes manipulator. Do remember his whole scheme with the cut strap in tWoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Do remember his whole scheme with the cut strap in tWoK. fuzzy memory- was that E who did that/plotted that though? If it was good catch...I have to reread that part. Still he doesn't need to resort to subterfuge here, I don't think. He could just tell him. plus someone would notice hime coming and going Edited January 15, 2014 by zandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 fuzzy memory- was that E who did that/plotted that though? If it was good catch...I have to reread that part. Still he doesn't need to resort to subterfuge here, I don't think. He could just tell him. plus someone would notice hime coming and going Yeah, he was trying to frame Dalinar, being worried that he was plotting to take over the kingdom. Which prompted Dal to go in and beat the living daylights out of El while wearing Shardplate. Great move to inspire confidence there, Dal my boy. Well done indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Yeah, he was trying to frame Dalinar, being worried that he was plotting to take over the kingdom. Which prompted Dal to go in and beat the living daylights out of El while wearing Shardplate. Great move to inspire confidence there, Dal my boy. Well done indeed. If we are talking about Elhokar cutting his saddle strap that it was not because he was trying to "frame Dalinar". He was trying to get Dalinar to think he wasn't just paranoid, that someone was trying to kill him. Dalinar "disciplining" the king because of the unfortunate side effect that was Dalinar being implicated in the plot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Ah yes. Thank you for the refresh! I still think E could just tell D and that the writer would be someone who did not have Dalinar's ear... so I will reclassify E as occasionally engaging in inept behind the scenes manipulation Edited January 15, 2014 by zandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayden Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Im not sure how anyone could get into Dalinar's room, with him asleep there without him knowing. He is a soldier and likely a very alert one after everything that has happened. During a highstorm then yeah he is distracted enough to not notice but for someone to sneak in and write on his wall and then sneak out? Just cant see how its possible for a flesh and blood being to do it. My guess is that it is Odium or Cultivation or a spren. Personally im curious to see whether this is the first act of communication from Dalinar's spren, but it doesnt quite fit right in my mind. Thus I think it is Odium, remember Tanavast told Dalinar that he does follow certain rules. Ever wondered why the heralds are called heralds? I think part of the agreement between Odium and Honor is forewarning of a Desolation. Something alone the lines of: Heralds show up and they have say 90 days before the desolation kicks off. But as the Heralds kinda bailed then maybe Cultivation stepped in and gave a subtle warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 i'm not sure what to make of the message as a whole. it feels like a warning to the final desolation at first glance, but that would be too easy and with Sanderson its usually best to dig deeper. my theory and hunch is that it is Elhokar who wrote it. i know, i know its way out there, but at the same time this could be an ultimatum that he is giving to Dalinar. 62 days to get his plan done or else. perhaps he even has other motives than that. I've always had a bad feeling about him but i could never pinpoint it, but i have always come to expect the unexpected. The problem I have with this theory is the epigraphs. In the chapter heading quotes, Navani seems to be linking the writing with the Parshendi. She is doing it retrospectively, so she would know. To be perfectly frank, what has happened these last two months is upon my head. The death, destruction, loss, and pain are my burden. I should have seen it coming. And I should have stopped it. Our first clue was the Parshendi. Even weeks before they abandoned their pursuit of the gemhearts, their pattern of fighting changed. They lingered on the plateaus after battles, as if waiting for something. Soldiers reported being watched from afar by an unnerving number of Parshendi scouts. Then we noticed a new pattern of their penetrating close to the camps in the night and then quickly retreating. I can only surmise that our enemies were even then preparing their stratagem to end this war. The next clue came on the walls. I did not ignore this sign, but neither did I grasp its full implications. The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than its deadline. To foresee the future is of the Voidbringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wit Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 I don't know why but I started thinking of Ialai Sadeas as a potential candidate. In Sadeas' words "His wife ran the most impressive network of spies in the warcamps." It would not be beyond reason to assume that she had some spies within Dalinar's working staff, who would allow her to know when Dalinar dozed off and when to get one of her agents to leave the message. As to why she would leave the message, well I am still trying to come up with a sound reason for that. Maybe she's an agent of Odium and passing on his message to Dalinar, or even better, maybe she's been coerced to work for Odium and in an act of defiance gets the message out to Dalinar so that he can prepare for what's to come. I can think of a number of other reasons for why she might leave the message, but I they're too outlandish. Point being that she has the means to pull something like this off. It would even be a really good plot twist if it turns out she did it and it was actually a warning of something much more mundane than the coming Everstorm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadewolf Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 @hoser: I thought for a long time on the last two epigraphs.The fact that she specifically reference forseeing the future, means that someone had seen the future. We know that forsight isn't of honor, but we don't know if it's of cultivation, so the voidbringer part might be a red herring. This leads me to believe that the message is either a warning, or a taunt by someone sided with odium. If it is a warning, what is it warning about. Seeing as Navani references the parshendi so much, in her entries, does that mean that this warning is about them, or is it Dalinar's desolation theory. Who would warn dalinar, there are plenty of these, but who would have the power of foresight? Personally I think Dalinar might be acquiring the power of foresight, as part of being a bond smith. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Ever wondered why the heralds are called heralds? I think part of the agreement between Odium and Honor is forewarning of a Desolation. Something alone the lines of: Heralds show up and they have say 90 days before the desolation kicks off. But as the Heralds kinda bailed then maybe Cultivation stepped in and gave a subtle warning. Exactly. I think a herald is as possible as a parshendi/shen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 If it is a warning, what is it warning about. Seeing as Navani references the parshendi so much, in her entries, does that mean that this warning is about them, or is it Dalinar's desolation theory. Who would warn dalinar, there are plenty of these, but who would have the power of foresight? Personally I think Dalinar might be acquiring the power of foresight, as part of being a bond smith. "The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than its deadline. To foresee the future is of the Voidbringers." I read this as meaning it was a warning of the coming final desolation. Possibly from a Parshendi source or else a herald...maybe one of them is having second thoughts about where they left everything? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) @hoser: I thought for a long time on the last two epigraphs.The fact that she specifically reference forseeing the future, means that someone had seen the future. We know that forsight isn't of honor, but we don't know if it's of cultivation, so the voidbringer part might be a red herring. This leads me to believe that the message is either a warning, or a taunt by someone sided with odium. If it is a warning, what is it warning about. Seeing as Navani references the parshendi so much, in her entries, does that mean that this warning is about them, or is it Dalinar's desolation theory. Who would warn dalinar, there are plenty of these, but who would have the power of foresight? Personally I think Dalinar might be acquiring the power of foresight, as part of being a bond smith. Interesting theory! The Almighty in the Starfall vision says that "To speak of what might be is forbidden." He also speaks of the Everstorm coming and the future being a shattering window (something like that). There must be something there. Vorinism has it twisted somehow, but I am leary of the knights having a prophetic ability. In the Starfall vision, the knights seem to be deducing the Desolation based on data, rather than using prophecy. The Parshendi fit pretty well, as Navani clearly connects them retrospectively, and they may not have the same restrictions on prophecy. The crude/brilliantly ambiguous writing is a puzzler. The rock pried out of the windowsill is strange too. If you are planning to write something, don't you bring something to write with? Does this mean the being arrived incorporeally and couldn't carry anything? Something possessing Dalinar to give the warning kind of fits. Edited January 15, 2014 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 "The sign on the wall proposed a greater danger, even, than its deadline. To foresee the future is of the Voidbringers." I read this as meaning it was a warning of the coming final desolation. Possibly from a Parshendi source or else a herald...maybe one of them is having second thoughts about where they left everything? That's what I was thinking, and why I was looking at the heralds that should have the transportation surge. I think there is a WoB somewhere about a herald that retrieved their blade, so if they were having second thoughts they might be able to blink into the room to leave a message. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually another thought that ties in with the Herald as writer theory - makes sense they would write on Dalinar's wall since he has been told to reform the Radiants...in essence making him chief of the Heralds' army of radiants. This as opposed to someone writing on Elkohar or Navani or Adolin or Kaladin or anyone else's wall... After all - why Dalinar's wall and not another person's wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadewolf Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually another thought that ties in with the Herald as writer theory - makes sense they would write on Dalinar's wall since he has been told to reform the Radiants...in essence making him chief of the Heralds' army of radiants. This as opposed to someone writing on Elkohar or Navani or Adolin or Kaladin or anyone else's wall... After all - why Dalinar's wall and not another person's wall? You know we don't know that Dalinar is the only one getting these visions, for all we know know the visions are broadcasted to all who are worthy and honorable, during highstorms. Also that doesnt explain how the heralds would know the exact date. they may bee able to see the signs of an upcomin desolation but how are they able to pinpoint a date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 You know we don't know that Dalinar is the only one getting these visions, for all we know know the visions are broadcasted to all who are worthy and honorable, during highstorms. Also that doesnt explain how the heralds would know the exact date. they may bee able to see the signs of an upcomin desolation but how are they able to pinpoint a date? true but we are being shown them through dalinar for i reason i think - otherwise we would probably learn about them from another character. I have no idea how they know what they know but i think they know, you know? Seriously- I think they do know either through signs or a predetermined schedule or the ability to predict things...regardless - someone knows, because someone wrote it. How would anyone, whoever you believe it to be, know? I think the Heralds are some of the better positioned people to know things like this since their Oathpact was centered around the desolations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terra of Roshar Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Actually, we do have evidence that Dalinar isn't the only one recieving the visions (or at least that's how I've always interpreted it): "That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices!" --Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle aged porter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years. (WOK paperback p. 1126) Edited for spelling Edited January 15, 2014 by Terra of Scadrial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually, we do have evidence that Dalinar isn't the only one recieving the visions (or at least that's how I've always interpreted it): Right - could be others share pieces of the visions if they are sensitive to such things- but do you think it is a group of people we have never heard of who will "unite them"? Or do you think that perhaps a leader type person we know will be actively trying to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually maybe all people who have potential to be a radiant see visions...but it will still take someone to be the leader of the effort to unite them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 OK, let's read again Navani's notes put head to head. - out first clue was the parshendi. - out second clue was the writing on the wall. While Sanderson can hide a lot behind his words, I think reading Navani's diary head to head provides a good indication of the events that happened, written AFTER the events. So we have the notes from the future, and the chapters that show how events are unfolding. * Based on those notes, I don't think the parshendi are responsible for the writing in the wall, otherwise the second clue would have been included in the first one... * Navani's notes are referencing "the past 2 months", so this is the span of WoR. Can somebody determine how many days are in 2 months? * Spren can hardy influence the physical (Syl was barely able to transport a few leaves, and Wyndle can do less), so I don't think it was a spren that left the message * I think the consensus is that Voidbringers are the Parshendi. There are only few right now that think otherwise. There were no indications that there were any Parshmen around Dalinar when he had his vision. (To be honest, there are no indications that there were not.) But the message, predicting the future, is not of Honor, and according to current information, and as Navani mentions, is of Voidbringers. So, putting this together, one possible implication here is that the (potential) voidbringer that left that message is not Parsh - but maybe human. Humans becoming voidbringers can be an interesting turn, with everyone thinking the Parshendi are. * We all know Moash is set up for his revenge against some lighteyes. Truly hope it's not someone in the Kholin family... (his snapping at the king's guards and then sheepishly saying to Kaladin that he's right looks very very fishy to me...) Also hope it was not Moash the one that left the message... though another possibility is that Renarin was the one (and Dalinar knows something about it -- maybe Renarin being a voidbringer is Dalinar's curse lol -- ahem @weirywriter) * While Sadeas looks a boring villain, it does not mean he will not find a way to truly be the villain Another interesting twist would be Sadeas actually succeeding in bringing down the Kholin family -- maybe he defeats Adolin in their bout (maybe by killing him too) -- this would definitely spark a war between the camps. This could be the pain, loss, etc that Navani talks about. And maybe while fighting, they all get attacked by the parshendi (in storm form, whatever that is ). Or maybe the parshendi join Dalinar's losing side, since Eshonai looks keen on having a friendly meeting with Dalinar. There are lots of possibilities here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well Shen is not technically Parshendi but a parhman....so that's a possibility, as are Heralds. I don't think this rules out Parshendi though either. I agree that it is unlikely it is a spren do to their, so far, inability to physically interact much with things. I'm not convinced the warning is not of Honor and therefore of Odium. Why he want them to be warned? Also Honor himself seems to peer into the future a tiny bit so I am not sold yet on the idea that looking into the future = void bringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well Shen is not technically Parshendi but a parhman....so that's a possibility, as are Heralds. I don't think this rules out Parshendi though either. I agree that it is unlikely it is a spren do to their, so far, inability to physically interact much with things. I'm not convinced the warning is not of Honor and therefore of Odium. Why he want them to be warned? Also Honor himself seems to peer into the future a tiny bit so I am not sold yet on the idea that looking into the future = void bringer. * who says the message is a warning? Dalinar and co. seems to be interpreting it this way, but maybe it's not a warning. * I used the word "Parsh" to refer both to Parshmen and Parshendi * I am not sold on the idea of looking into the future = voidbringer as well. But, I am interpreting the words of Navani written after (some of the) events unfolded already - and she says that one clue that they did not fully comprehend at the time was the message, and that looking into the future is of the voidbringers. I understand from her notes that it was a voidbringer that left that message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Well Shen is not technically Parshendi but a parhman....so that's a possibility, as are Heralds. I don't think this rules out Parshendi though either. I agree that it is unlikely it is a spren do to their, so far, inability to physically interact much with things. I'm not convinced the warning is not of Honor and therefore of Odium. Why he want them to be warned? Also Honor himself seems to peer into the future a tiny bit so I am not sold yet on the idea that looking into the future = void bringer. Except Honor is a Shard. Being able to see into the future is part and parcel of the god business - and he isn't even that good at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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