Chapters 3-5 up on Tor

[KiManiak]

I am 99.9% positive that it went to Elhokar and it's the one that he still uses today.

 

I don’t think we should be so sure that Gavilar’s Shards and Elhokar’s Shards are the same.  I’d always had the impression that they were different, at least according to the descriptions given by the book.  

 

Gavilar's armor:

 

“The armor was beautiful, the blue inlaid with golden bands around the edges of each piece of plate, the helm ornamented with three waves of small, hornlike wings.” Prologue 

 

Elhokar's armor:

 

“The king was resplendent in his golden Shardplate…” (Chapter 12 - Unity)

 

This one was harder for me to get a description of, although the color alone shows the differences.  But, as has already been stated here, a difference in color of Plate means nothing.  Painting and ornamentation  of Shardplate is common. 

 

The book goes into more detail about the accessorizing of Shardplate:

 

“Only one Shard-bearer in the procession – indeed, only one Shardbearer in the entirety of the ten armies – used no paint or ornamentations on his Plate.  Dalinar Kholin.” (Ch 12 - Unity)

 

So Plate can be changed.  But I don't believe that Blades can be (or at least the book has given us no reason to believe they can be).

 

And the 2 Blades do not appear to be described in a similar fashion:

 

Gavilar's:

 

“…an enormous Shardblade six feet long with a design along the blade like burning flames, a weapon of silvery metal that gleamed and almost seemed to glow.”( Prologue)

 

Elhokar's is described somewhat differently:

 

“...his Shardblade –Sunraiser – springing from mist into his hand.  It was long and thin with a large crossguard, and was etched up the sides with the ten fundamental glyphs.” (Ch 13 - Ten heartbeats)

 

 

Now, there's a chance that Szeth viewed the design on the Blade to just be burning flames (even though we've been shown that Szeth is rather well educated and can even read/write) while Dalinar knew the design to be the etching of the 10 fundamental glyphs.  And that Szeth didn't note the large crossguard at all while Dalinar found it rather noteworthy.

 

But I think a stronger argument could be made that they are somewhat different.  

 

So I think it's as likely (if not moreso) that Elhokar has his own Shards, as to the belief that Elhokar has Gavilar's shards.

 

Which leads to the question: Where are Gavilar's Shards?  Are they the same place as the Shards that Dalinar won from the Parshendi?

[Shardbearer]

Are other Blades described as glowing or almost glowing?

[Natans]

 

They are puppyspren. Shallan said so.

 

 

There you go. It's a pup spren and we shall name him George and he will be Shallan's best friend forever.

 

 I second that =)

[WeiryWriter]

On whether Elhokar's and Gavilar's shards are the same, I can see arguments for both sides.  It is entirely plausible that Elhokar simply repainted Gavilar's.  He is constantly living in his father's shadow, I would think he would have to change them at least slightly to be able to cope.  On the other hand he could have received another set before his fathers death.  Adolin as his own shards, it wouldn't strain credulity that Elhokar could be in a similar situation.  In the end though, I think someone should ask Brandon about it.

[Natans]

Are other Blades described as glowing or almost glowing?

 

Amaram gem in the hilt glowed for sure. I think that in some point someone said that the balde always glowed even when they should be tainted with blood, but i can't remember the context.

[KiManiak]

As a general question to everyone who thinks Shallan stunted her spren's growth:

 

What's special about her spren compared to Syl, compared to Wyndle, compared to Ym's spren? They were all slow and stupid at the start. Why does there have to be a special explanation for Shallan's spren being stupid because she measured it?

 

It seemed to me that the spren kept trying to poke through the Cognitive Realm to the Physical, and failed until Shallan provided a gateway for it. Hence the sigh of relief. I don't think it's very easy for a spren to make it to the Physical.

 

A good question; why assume that this isn’t a natural occurrence after all?

 

I think because this information is so new –and  we know so little, and this is Brandon who writes so many twists and turns that you can get all kinds of dizzy – that it’s easy to speculate based on the limited information that we have.

 

I think each of the spren we’ve seen can be described as “special,” since we don’t know the traditional standard practice set for a surgebinder to bond with their spren. 

 

To be fair, we’ve only seen 2 spren in the early stages of the bonding process: Kaladin’s and Shallan’s.  Lift had Wyndle for quite a while (2 years, I think), Ym had his spren for who knows how long, and we didn’t actually see Shallan bond Ivory (I think, unless the events in the Prologue were the bonding process.  In which case, wow, that's a weird process).

 

So we really only have Syl and “puppy-spren” to go by.  The difference between those two is that Syl and Kaladin have their interaction develop naturally; Kaladin doesn’t appear to actively do anything to bring Syl to him in the Physical Realm.  Shallan appears (qualifier is necessary as we don’t actually know the “natural” process) to force “puppy-spren”  into the Physical realm, and even notes that she doesn’t quite draw him perfectly. 

 

So, the natural… let’s call it “progression” of Syl vs. the forced “progression” of puppy-spren.  That’s what makes Shallan’s efforts seem questionable, to me at least.

 

 

Having said all of that, I freely acknowledge that the reader knows so little of the process that I would not be floored if we find out later that Shallan did exactly what that spren needed. 

 

But on first read (partial read that it is), it is logical to theorize that Shallan’s methods led to the spren’s current developmental state.  

 

 

(On a separate note, I may not be as productive at work today as I could be; I wonder what's to blame?  )

Edited January 16, 2014 by KiManiak

[Daishi5]

As a general question to everyone who thinks Shallan stunted her spren's growth:

 

What's special about her spren compared to Syl, compared to Wyndle, compared to Ym's spren? They were all slow and stupid at the start. Why does there have to be a special explanation for Shallan's spren being stupid because she measured it?

 

It seemed to me that the spren kept trying to poke through the Cognitive Realm to the Physical, and failed until Shallan provided a gateway for it. Hence the sigh of relief. I don't think it's very easy for a spren to make it to the Physical.

 

 

I don't think people think that Shallan stunted her spren yet.  What we think is that if she makes a lot of careful measurements of her spren, she could prevent it from growing in the way Syl and Wyndle did.  Like the two Ardents who measured flame spren and locked the flame spren into that measurements margin of error, Shallan might measure and record her spren's intelligence or ability and lock it to the measurements she gets at that time.  

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't think people think that Shallan stunted her spren yet.  What we think is that if she makes a lot of careful measurements of her spren, she could prevent it from growing in the way Syl and Wyndle did.  Like the two Ardents who measured flame spren and locked the flame spren into that measurements margin of error, Shallan might measure and record her spren's intelligence or ability and lock it to the measurements she gets at that time.  

The spren would only be locked in its appearance though, right? Just as when specific measurements of the other spren were recorded, those specific things locked. 

If spren are physical ideas, it may just be emulating what "is known" about it. I don't know.

[Cromptj]

By the time that the other known surgebinders were aware and consciously surgebound (surgebinded?), their spren seemed to be sentient, although we did not get much of Jasnah's reationship with Ivory. And Shallan's spren did speak to her, or something did.

[Dahak]

Ooooh... 

 

You know what, I'm on Bloodfalcon's side here. What is this "spoilers" you speak of? 

 

[Binnut]

I found out about this today 2 hours before an exam... Guess what I did instead of preparing!

 

 

...

* the glyph written in Dalinar's chamber was written in stone. Can stone act on Roshar like metal on Scadrial?

...

In Ishikk's interlude he thinks about that some things regarding the gods only could be spoken aloud when in some crystal caves. It is implied that the gods cannot hear it then. This makes me think that its actually Gems that is similar to metal in that regard.

 

 

I don't think Dalinar plans on getting all the shards.  Once Adolin wins one or two shards, people are going to be much less willing to duel him.  

I wonder if Dalinar and the King will do the same thing Gavilar did, give a set of shards to the King's primary bodyguard 

I read it as that if the challenge questions the honor of the other or that failing to agree implies fear then they could make more shardbearers agree to a bout.

[Kurkistan]

In Ishikk's interlude he thinks about that some things regarding the gods only could be spoken aloud when in some crystal caves. It is implied that the gods cannot hear it then. This makes me think that its actually Gems that is similar to metal in that regard.

 

Nice catch, I don't think I've seen this mentioned before.

[Shardlet]

In Ishikk's interlude he thinks about that some things regarding the gods only could be spoken aloud when in some crystal caves. It is implied that the gods cannot hear it then. This makes me think that its actually Gems that is similar to metal in that regard.

 

I hate to disappoint you, but Ishikk does not say crystal caves, he says "Holy Grottos".  There is no mention of crystals or gems at all.  I do recall some folks speculating that there are a lot of gems there in conjunction with assuming that gems are to Roshar as metal is to Scadrial.  But it was only speculation.

[deddinty]

I hate to disappoint you, but Ishikk does not say crystal caves, he says "Holy Grottos".  There is no mention of crystals or gems at all.  I do recall some folks speculating that there are a lot of gems there in conjunction with assuming that gems are to Roshar as metal is to Scadrial.  But it was only speculation.

I was about to make the same comment Shardlet.  I just double checked the whole passage, and there's no mention of the grottos having crystal in them.

 

Thinking along these lines though, it could imply that a structure of stone, perhaps specifically stone in a natural cave formation (not cut, like the shin say?) could be what protects the speakers.  Since Dalinar's room was soulcast stone, it could work.  This is just speculation though, I'd want to know more about the holy grottos before making any claims, they very well could have natural crystal formations in them.

 

If it does turn out to be "crystal" that could block the gods from hearing, that would make an interesting case for the Palanaeum, with it's crystal walls.

Edited January 17, 2014 by deddinty

[Shardlet]

I don't recall the Palanaeum being described as having crystal walls either.  But it has been several months since I last reread the book.

[Binnut]

I hate to disappoint you, but Ishikk does not say crystal caves, he says "Holy Grottos".  There is no mention of crystals or gems at all.  I do recall some folks speculating that there are a lot of gems there in conjunction with assuming that gems are to Roshar as metal is to Scadrial.  But it was only speculation.

 

I just read the passage again, I was so sure...

But as you say, no mention of crystals or gems.

I probably picked that up from the discussion then.

 

Then its very possible that it could be stone. It must suck to be a shard in that case, blind to everything since there is stone everywhere. Mabye that is why the Shin do not walk on stone, Cultivation wants to keep track of them and cant see them if they walk on stone.

[Moist_von_Lipwig]

I just read the passage again, I was so sure...

But as you say, no mention of crystals or gems.

I probably picked that up from the discussion then.

 

Then its very possible that it could be stone. It must suck to be a shard in that case, blind to everything since there is stone everywhere. Mabye that is why the Shin do not walk on stone, Cultivation wants to keep track of them and cant see them if they walk on stone.

 

This is why I'm sceptical of the theory that stone blinds the shards. We know from the book that almost the entirety of Roshar, with the exception of Shinovar, is stone. And because of soulcasting it's used everywhere as well. I suppose you could claim that that's the purpose of the Highstorms; sweep away all the soil in an attempt to blind Odium. But that's a fairly shaky theory.

 

XX--minor Mistborn spoiler--XX

 

Im more on-board with the gem theory, on Scandrial it was metal that blinded Ruin. I believe it was mentioned that this was because the metal represented power for Ruin, so it was like looking at a bright-light or the Sun from his point of view. The exact quote escapes me though. Surely on this logic gemstones would be the equivalent on Roshar, but only infused gemstones perhaps?

Edited January 17, 2014 by Moist_von_Lipwig

[Moogle]

I don't recall the Palanaeum being described as having crystal walls either.  But it has been several months since I last reread the book.

 

The entirety of Kharbranth's royal treasury (thousands and thousands of emerald broams) is used to light the Palanaeum. It would not be unreasonable to assume that there's enough gems to blind any Shards to what's going on in there.

 

Edit: the actual number is hundreds, and apparently the light in the Palanaeum is dim. Maybe not?

 

 

The lighting was dim; there was no general illumination, only small emerald lamps focused to illuminate the walkway floors. Ardents from the Devotary of Insight periodically moved through the levels, changing the spheres. There had to be hundreds upon hundreds of the emeralds here; apparently, they made up the Kharbranthian royal treasury. What better place for them than the extremely secure Palanaeum? Here they could both be protected and serve to illuminate the enormous library.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Gamma Fiend]

It does say 'hundred and hundreds' which I take to mean probably close to a thousand, if not more. These lamps are supposed to consist of the whole royal treasury. The lighting is just dim in contrast to general illumination, i.e., overhead chandeliers and whatnot.

I'm positive if all the spheres were in one giant pile, I'm sure it'd be bright as heck, but spread out throughout tons of lamps, it creates a somewhat dim glow overall.

[FeatherWriter]

Re: The Palanaeum's crystal walls. It's in the very first description of the Palanaeum that we receive.

 

“The Palanaeum proper is this way.” The servant gestured, leading her to a set of doors on the other side of the room. Through them, she entered a smaller chamber that was partitioned with walls of thick crystal. Shallan approached the nearest one, feeling it. The crystal’s surface was rough like hewn rock.

Ch. 7

Edited January 17, 2014 by FeatherWriter

[Moogle]

Re: The Palanaeum's crystal walls. It's in the very first description of the Palanaeum that we receive.

 

But is the crystal the same as gemstone? Would it blind a Shard? I'm interested now.

[The Rooster]

The entirety of Kharbranth's royal treasury (thousands and thousands of emerald broams) is used to light the Palanaeum. It would not be unreasonable to assume that there's enough gems to blind any Shards to what's going on in there.

 

Edit: the actual number is hundreds, and apparently the light in the Palanaeum is dim. Maybe not?

 I doubt its the gem lighting as well. I'm sure every palace in Roshar (Save any place in Shinovar) is light via stormlight.  That would make the Gods blind to all rulers.

[Bloodfalcon]

 I doubt its the gem lighting as well. I'm sure every palace in Roshar (Save any place in Shinovar) is light via stormlight.  That would make the Gods blind to all rulers.

 The same could be said for metals in Mistborn though...

[The Rooster]

 The same could be said for metals in Mistborn though...

Good point BF I believe it was said in the Original Trilogy that Kredik Shaw was created by the LR for this very purpose. 

[Shardlet]

Re: The Palanaeum's crystal walls. It's in the very first description of the Palanaeum that we receive.

 

I read that as being a description of an anteroom where the crystalized partition walls were added.  It does not seem to me to describe the Palanaeum itself.