Oudeis Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 They're fundamentally the same and will probably produce similar effects (ie. immortality), even if they're a bit different visually. I'm with you up until the very final step. Do you see your leap of faith? You're just assuming that "immortality" must be something like "is reflected" that all Investiture has to share, instead of "appears green", meaning unique to one system. It could be either. Investiture across the cosmere will share certain things. That doesn't mean it will all grant immortality. You've got literally one solid example of it, a ton of methods of Investiture that do not slow the aging process at all, and a few extremely forced examples besides. Your stance is rather hard-core. "More Investiture MUST ALWAYS equal agelessness" is pretty surely not true. "Many forms of Investiture have a salubrious effect on the user that includes an extended lifespan" is a much lower bar to get over, and is probably the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Your stance is rather hard-core. "More Investiture MUST ALWAYS equal agelessness" is pretty surely not true. "Many forms of Investiture have a salubrious effect on the user that includes an extended lifespan" is a much lower bar to get over, and is probably the case. My stance is 'hard-core' only because it has no hard counterexamples I've seen (Mistborn and Feruchemists might be a counterexample, but they don't hold Investiture constantly) and it is a commonality between every single use of permanent Investiture we've seen. Shards, Inquisitors, Elantrians, Awakeners are all human and all 'hold' Investiture constantly and all have extended lifespans. If you want to call the examples forced, that might be the issue - I find them in no way forced. I see Investiture, I see extended lifespans. I'm not twisting words, I'm literally using in-world examples that are fairly clear-cut. There's less clear-cut examples, too - Hoid and Heralds are probable Investiture-users who live longer than normal. Surgebinders and metal savants quite possibly have extended lifespans as well. Here's the argument's against the theory: Koloss don't live forever! Well, yeah, the effect is small (Inquisitor's don't live that much longer) with Hemalurgy, because it only involves small amounts of Investiture, and the biological changes obviously are too great to make up for it in this case. Surgebinder's might not live forever! The theory predicts they will live longer, and we have yet to see any old or aged Radiants. This is hardly evidence against; it doesn't count either way, yet. Mistborn don't live forever! Yeah, they don't hold Investiture constantly either. The theory predicts that savants will live longer, but we have no information on that either way and the amounts of Investiture in Allomancy and Feruchemy are really quite small according to WoB, so I'd predict a small increase similar to Hemalurgy (perhaps a bit more pronounced), not enough to be remarked on. The other argument I've seen brought up is 'well, we don't know enough and maybe some Shards are different'. Yeah, we don't, but there's no counterexamples that act as evidence against, so I think I'm fairly justified in a hard-core stance in order to keep things simple. Having some Investiture slow aging and some not over complicates things with exceptions. The laws of electromagnetism do not take a break whether it's red light or green light. And honestly, I'm arguing in its defense not because I'm certain of it. I just think it's possible, and so far no one has presented any examples showing it is wrong, so I am tentatively optimistic. If I come across as overly certain, that's a failing on my part and I apologize. Edited January 14, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Okay, I have told you again and again why your initial premise is flawed, and your reaction is "I'm just going to keep talking as though my premise is firm," without addressing anything I say. Like I've said, believe what you want to believe. I'll be here if you'd ever like to actually debate something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Those examples are exactly what I would use for Investiture. Red light and green light are essentially the same (they're just photons with a slight difference in energy levels) and follow the same rules. You shine them on something, it will heat up. They're reflected by mirrors. You can use them to transfer information, transfer energy, they can be used in laser pointers, etc. This idea of 'unique flavor of rules and rewards' is probably true - I imagine there are variations in each Shard's Investiture, but I doubt the rules are different on any huge level. They're fundamentally the same and will probably produce similar effects (ie. immortality), even if they're a bit different visually. We belive light should act following certain rules, but it doesnt always work out. Gamma rays are just high energy light, but don't reflect off mirrors, and rather than warming things up they can instead trigger nuclear fission, or even produce antimatter. Microwaves simply never do those things. That said, all light has a wavelength, frequency, and total energy that follow strict rules. I'm suggesting that investiture could have radically different end effects depending on the type, even if it is all the same stuff. That said, I do think immortality fits as a universal effect of investiture simply because all the shareholders are still alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think we need to stop making silly analogies and accept that it's magic. It has rules, but they will in some ways resemble the relationships between almost anything. We have established that Investiture acts nominally like fuel, unless it works like a lake, unless it works like an inter dimensional serpent. Perhaps explaining the magic in direct terms compared to each other with specific terminology will work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Asked Brandon if Radiants live longer on average than regular people during his waygate thing, and got a RAFO. I'm bad at this! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Asked Brandon if Radiants live longer on average than regular people during his waygate thing, and got a RAFO. I'm bad at this! Wear your RAFO like a badge of Honor, Moogle. Wear it with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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