Theory: All Investiture Slows Aging

[Kurkistan]

Sorry, Kurk, but you are not the first to come up with this theory:

 

[Cracknut]

Perfect agelessness = 2000 Breaths. Can't buy that a single inhale of Stormlight can ever be equivalent of that. Seems too unfair imo...

Does anyone know exactly how much Breath's were used to create Nightblood?

Can Shardblade be bound to Lifeless?

[Aether]

Does anyone know exactly how much Breath's were used to create Nightblood?

I seemed to remember reading in the book that it took exactly "a thousand breath", but the Coppermind article says "thousands".

[Moogle]

Perfect agelessness = 2000 Breaths. Can't buy that a single inhale of Stormlight can ever be equivalent of that. Seems too unfair imo...

 

It's not just one puff of Stormlight, though. You've got to keep putting gems out every highstorm and keep taking in Stormlight every day. You need a constant, regular source of Stormlight to manage immortality.

[Oudeis]

Age slower than normal. Marsh mentions that they age, but slowly:

 

I don't have Elantris as an e-book, but you're right: they die. However, it's not because of old age. Elantrians who get tired of life (just because they're immortal doesn't mean they can't get bored) go to Devotion's (?) Shardpool, fall in, and dissolve.

 

'Rampantly speculative' is an understatement for my numbers on Breath to Stormlight equivalence. And no, a small pinch of metal can't send a large chunk of metal flying into the sky faster than a Lashing; with Duralumin, Vin is barely capable of flinging a few horses around. Furthermore, she can't sustain it, whereas Stormlight Lashings let a chunk fall for upwards of a minute. When Vin literally drew on pure Investiture from Preservation, she was capable of tearing apart a metal building, but she also had her body vaporized from the excess power, so there's that too.

 

I'm not discussing different magic systems, I'm discussing raw Investiture specifically, which is what Breath and Stormlight are. They're not really magic systems on their own. I feel that raw Investiture should have similar effects on people who hold it, though with variations based on the Shard that it came from. Immortality seems be a nice perk for the Heralds, Returned, and Elantrians, which makes me suspect that it's common to all Investiture-holders (once they get enough).

 

 

Still not buying Elantrian immortality. So far you've got nothing but speculation. We know they don't heal perfectly, as evidenced by Galladon's father. It took him what, days to die? But he still did. I feel like someone would have mentioned by now if Elantrians would never age. It's an idea, and I guess I can't disprove it, but you've got no proof for it.

 

See below re: comparing metal flakes to Stormlight; Swimmingly is right, apples and oranges. I still disagree with you on the physics, but it's not germane.

 

So all you've got are Heralds, who die all the time, they just re-spawn, also there are only 10 of them and if they're not a prime example of direct Shardic involvement I don't know what is; and the Returned/anyone with 2000 Breaths. So that's exactly one example of someone in one specific magic system powerful enough to get agelessness as a passive ability. I'm sorry, but two points of data, especially with one of them having "anomaly" warning signs all over the place, is far from enough to establish that something is "common."

 

Also, as I think I read someone else point out; inhaling a ton of stormlight means you start leaking a ton of stormlight. Breaths can be held perfectly, and apparently only Voidbringers can hold Stormlight perfectly. You'd need to be inhaling it every, what, few seconds to maintain enough? Even if it is possible, which I don't think it is.

 

On the steel, pewter, duralumin thing, this a different; they draw the Investiture from Preservation directly, while Stormlight seems to be Investiture itself rather than a gate to it.

 

Valid point.

 

Also, I think people are reading Mr. Sanderson's "Stormlight is Investiture" quote wrong. I think it's like saying, "an apple is a fruit." That doesn't mean an apple and a banana give you the same nutrition. Just one man's opinion.

[Kurkistan]

I seemed to remember reading in the book that it took exactly "a thousand breath", but the Coppermind article says "thousands".

 

It's just a thousand. I just checked the book. I also fixed the Coppermind article.

[Cracknut]

It's not just one puff of Stormlight, though. You've got to keep putting gems out every highstorm and keep taking in Stormlight every day. You need a constant, regular source of Stormlight to manage immortality.

That would make it a bit more annoying for them but amount of investiture stays same(or keeps rising bit by bit but still), single inhale should never equal to 2000 Breath's imo.

It might delay aging a bit but not to the point of perfect agelessness. + If this was the case than KR would never change, except if killed which is less likely at non-desolation times and if even a single KR was able to stay alive for that amount of time then people would never forget how dangerous Desolation is. Which they did even before Heralds abandoned them. I'm not sure about all the stuff I'm saying here but I really hope Stormlight isn't the reason why Heralds were/are ageless. That would make KR ageless as well and that would make Heralds less special and less epic imo.

 

Still not buying Elantrian immortality. So far you've got nothing but speculation. We know they don't heal perfectly, as evidenced by Galladon's father. It took him what, days to die? But he still did. I feel like someone would have mentioned by now if Elantrians would never age. It's an idea, and I guess I can't disprove it, but you've got no proof for it.

I always took Elantrian Pool, where they went to die, existed simply because Elantrians couldn't die of age or diseases. Mundane suicides would make them less "holy". They might not be immortal as in forever but Galladon is still alive in WoK.

Edited January 13, 2014 by 213

[Moogle]

Still not buying Elantrian immortality. So far you've got nothing but speculation. We know they don't heal perfectly, as evidenced by Galladon's father. It took him what, days to die? But he still did. I feel like someone would have mentioned by now if Elantrians would never age. It's an idea, and I guess I can't disprove it, but you've got no proof for it.

 

I really don't want to have to reread Elantris ever, but wasn't it remarked on that they didn't age? I swear this isn't just speculation. I know that the Elantrian-zombies didn't age (because Galladon literally said that), though they weren't zombies long enough to know for sure, I guess.

 

So all you've got are Heralds, who die all the time, they just re-spawn, also there are only 10 of them and if they're not a prime example of direct Shardic involvement I don't know what is; and the Returned/anyone with 2000 Breaths. So that's exactly one example of someone in one specific magic system powerful enough to get agelessness as a passive ability. I'm sorry, but two points of data, especially with one of them having "anomaly" warning signs all over the place, is far from enough to establish that something is "common."

 

What do you think direct Shardic involvement is but investing things with Investiture?

 

As for Heralds, they die and respawn, but they have certainly been around for more than 4500 years since the Final Desolation without dying.

 

Also, as I think I read someone else point out; inhaling a ton of stormlight means you start leaking a ton of stormlight. Breaths can be held perfectly, and apparently only Voidbringers can hold Stormlight perfectly. You'd need to be inhaling it every, what, few seconds to maintain enough? Even if it is possible, which I don't think it is.

 

WoR spoilers:

 

Kaladin seems to be constantly infused with Stormlight nowadays, after speaking the Second Ideal. I'm not saying he's ageless, I'm speculating that once he speaks three more Ideals and his Stormlight efficiency increases that much more, he'll never run out (it'll take him weeks of not being around spheres), so it is effectively him holding Stormlight 24/7 then.

 

That would make it a bit more annoying for them but amount of investiture stays same(or keeps rising bit by bit but still), single inhale should never equal to 2000 Breath's imo.

 

Why not? Breaths don't run out (see previous banking analogy) but Stormlight does run out, which might give it a huge power boost. You'd expect the the thing that burns itself out to have way more power than something that does not (slow burning campfire vs. huge gas explosion).

Edited January 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Arook]

I think 1000 stone lifeless charging at you is more powerfull than any rock you could toss at them.

I just don't think the to systems compare well.

I think a better comparison for power is 1 breath to 1 brom of stormlight

[Cracknut]

Why not? Breaths don't run out (see previous banking analogy) but Stormlight does run out, which might give it a huge power boost. You'd expect the the thing that burns itself out to have way more power than something that does not (slow burning campfire vs. huge gas explosion).

Actually Breaths do run out. If awakened object dies before Breath is returned it disappears. Nightblood(and many other possible stuff that could be done with breath) burns it. Less living Nalthians = less breath, no living Nalthians no breath. If someone with Breath dies, its lost forever. I'm not sure about this one but I remember something among the lines of "Children of Drabs are born without Breaths."

[Moogle]

Actually Breaths do run out. If awakened object dies before Breath is returned it disappears. Nightblood(and many other possible stuff that could be done with breath) burns it. Less living Nalthians = less breath, no living Nalthians no breath. If someone with Breath dies, its lost forever. I'm not sure about this one but I remember something among the lines of "Children of Drabs are born without Breaths."

Nightblood supports my theory that using up Investiture quickly can result in fantastically powerful things compared to using it slowly and having it last forever.

 

Also, Breaths that are 'lost' can be mined back:

 

Stroniax

Is there a way to harvest BioChromatic Breath from a planet, if it holds any? (If a person dies, and their body turns to dusty he dust of the earth, then doesn't the earth--or sharever planet they have--therefore hold thousands, if not millions, of BioChromatic Breaths?)

Brandon Sanderson

Possible. It would be the same thing as harvesting the nature of Preservation or Ruin, which--on Scadrial--took the form of nuggets of metal.

 

My point was that they don't run out during normal use, anyways.

 

 I'm sorry, but two points of data, especially with one of them having "anomaly" warning signs all over the place, is far from enough to establish that something is "common."

 

Two points of data? I'm counting the following as data:

• Shards, made of Investiture, are immortal and make their wielders immortal.
• Hemalurgy alters you to age slower (Inquisitors) and steals innate Investiture.
• Heralds, through Shardic power (ie. Investiture), are immortal. They likely can use Stormlight.
• People with 2000 Breaths (Investiture) are immortal.
• Elantrians are probably immortal I swear can someone look in Elantris for me and find this and they seem to be a conduit for Investiture (visual similarities to Stormlight).

Edited January 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Aether]

@Moogle: The Coppermind says "They can also use their power prolong their life well beyond that of an normal human." But I think that is just plain wrong. The article is a stump anyway. But read the prologue to Elantris. I would have done it, but I do not have the book where I am right now. But come on! You can survive reading the prologue!

[Arook]

Not able to be retrived is not the same as burned up. Also all energy at some point returns to a shard unless they use their power wrong.

I agree that it does seem like high investiture slows aging but from the systems we see we also dont know that it was not intentionaly done.

Inquisitors were made to enforce for the lord ruler and he would not want his servents to have to change every few years so making them age slower i could see being intentional.

Elantrians were made so using that power to create a form of immortality seems logical

Breaths are part of life so keeping a person alive after a point make sense. Drab people have children with a breath other wise with all the returned would burn through all breaths after a time.

[Kurkistan]

Elantris PAGE 1 (and wow is my copy of Elantris beat up. I haven't pulled it off the shelf in a while, bt it's not looking too good at the moment)

Yet as magnificent as [Elantris] was, its inhabitants were more so. Their hair was a brilliant white, their skin an almost metallic silver, the Elantrians seemed to shine like the city itself. Legends claim that they were immortal, or at least very nearly so. Their bodies healed quickly, and they were blessed with great strength, insight, and speed. They could perform magics...

[Moogle]

@Moogle: The Coppermind says "They can also use their power prolong their life well beyond that of an normal human." But I think that is just plain wrong. The article is a stump anyway. But read the prologue to Elantris. I would have done it, but I do not have the book where I am right now. But come on! You can survive reading the prologue!

 

Unghhhhh but it has Raodennnnnnn, I don't wanna.

 

Edit: Ooh! I did a search with Google Books and found this:

 

 

"Their hair a brilliant white, their skin an almost metallic silver, the Elantrians seemed to shine like the city itself. Legends claim that they were immortal, or at least nearly so."

 

Not quite the most foolproof evidence.

 

Edit edit: Darnit Kurk! You're too fast.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Cracknut]

Breaths that are 'lost' can be mined back:

That's cool ) OK, I'm buying Stormlight making people immortal but still hope it's not

About Elantrians, they're obviously immortal. Elantrians-gone-bad are immortal too, they stayed alive no matter what, their pain simply made them die cognitively or something like that I think but they still stayed alive. Didn't main characters drag "dying" Elantrians to pool so they could rest in peace?

[Aether]

I think I remember that decapitation basically did the thing, though. Though anything up to that point didn't seem to be enough.

 

EDIT: Permit me to ad a few more "though"s: though, though, and though the though is rather though. Though.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether

[Arook]

I thought you had to burn the body. Anyway the normal elantrains and the corrupted ones have diffrent forms of immortality

[Moogle]

I thought you had to burn the body. Anyway the normal elantrains and the corrupted ones have diffrent forms of immortality

 

How do you know?

[Arook]

Elantrian could still die from their wounds like if you bashed someones head in were the poor guy that got mugged in the begining of the book was still alive after having his skull crushed in.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Arook

[Cracknut]

Elantrian could still die from their wounds like if you bashed someones head in were the poor guy that got mugged in the begining of the book was still alive after having his skull crushed in.

We haven't seen normal Elantrian's skulls being crushed in have we? 

Edited January 13, 2014 by 213

[Oudeis]

 

Two points of data? I'm counting the following as data:

• Shards, made of Investiture, are immortal and make their wielders immortal.
• Hemalurgy alters you to age slower (Inquisitors) and steals innate Investiture.
• Heralds, through Shardic power (ie. Investiture), are immortal. They likely can use Stormlight.
• People with 2000 Breaths (Investiture) are immortal.
• Elantrians are probably immortal I swear can someone look in Elantris for me and find this and they seem to be a conduit for Investiture (visual similarities to Stormlight).

 

 

Shards are Gods. They are largely composed of the infinite powers of creation itself. No way I'm letting you get away with that as proof of your statement. They are the definition of a special case.

 

Hemalurgy, meh. Remember, Inquisitors are specifically hemalurgic creations. Long-lived? Fine. Immortal? No. Mistwraiths die after fifty years, but with just two spikes they turn into ageless Kandra. Yet koloss have twice that many spikes, and age faster than humans. Hemalurgy clearly does not universally extend life, let alone provide immortality.

 

Heralds, again, are a special case, and while yes agelessness is a part of it, they literally respawn. There are only 10, and it is not a repeatable experiment, and we know next to nothing about them. They are almost for certain a special case of direct Shardic intervention, which invalidates you claim that they support the theory that "more Investiture automatically means longer life".

 

I still disagree with Elantrians. "Legends say". The average person knows next to nothing for sure about Elantrians. They heal rapidly, so without accidents or chronic conditions, and with eternal access to good food and protection from the elements, I'm sure if they reached the ripe old age of 80 or 90 that would lend to a general legend of their immortality among humans, especially since, as we know, the actual death was kept strictly secret from anyone who didn't glow. It's evidence, yes, but it's incredibly weak.

 

So, you've got one specific confirmed cased of the Fifth Heightening, two specific cases muddied by the nature of direct Shardic intervention (Heralds and the Shards themselves), one line in Elantris about what "legends say", and the contradiction that is hemalurgy.

 

It's a charming theory, but you're still basically hinging it on a single point of data, and a load of speculation.

 

 

That's cool ) OK, I'm buying Stormlight making people immortal but still hope it's not

About Elantrians, they're obviously immortal. Elantrians-gone-bad are immortal too, they stayed alive no matter what, their pain simply made them die cognitively or something like that I think but they still stayed alive. Didn't main characters drag "dying" Elantrians to pool so they could rest in peace?

 

The Hoed were very different. They were trapped in time, which led to their particular immortality. It wasn't natural or pleasant. They didn't heal, and couldn't die, they were frozen in one instant.

[Arook]

True but i believe he comments on it at the time

[Cracknut]

I still disagree with Elantrians. "Legends say". The average person knows next to nothing for sure about Elantrians. They heal rapidly, so without accidents or chronic conditions, and with eternal access to good food and protection from the elements, I'm sure if they reached the ripe old age of 80 or 90 that would lend to a general legend of their immortality among humans, especially since, as we know, the actual death was kept strictly secret from anyone who didn't glow. It's evidence, yes, but it's incredibly weak.

 

So, you've got one specific confirmed cased of the Fifth Heightening, two specific cases muddied by the nature of direct Shardic intervention (Heralds and the Shards themselves), one line in Elantris about what "legends say", and the contradiction that is hemalurgy.

 

It's a charming theory, but you're still basically hinging it on a single point of data, and a load of speculation.

 

 

 

The Hoed were very different. They were trapped in time, which led to their particular immortality. It wasn't natural or pleasant. They didn't heal, and couldn't die, they were frozen in one instant.

Gotta agree with Kanda/Koloss thing... Shards too in a way lose their physical form and go into Cognitive/Spiritual Realm, which I recon both are immortal anyway. But still their bodies stay alive because they're holding this great amount of investiture which also is "power of creation".

About Elantrians... I'm pretty sure they used pool to DIE, because otherwise they lived a lot longer than average humans(they got tired from living), for some reason I remember something about 300+ years. Not to mention that Galladon is still alive in WoK, how much time passed since Elantris? 700 years?

Edited January 13, 2014 by 213

[Aether]

@Darnam: Actually, I do not believe that the Koloss age per say. They grow, and when they get too big, they die out of heat failure. For all we know, they might still technically be as ageless as the Kandra. So while you might not be able to count it as in favour of the theory, it certainly does not disprove it either.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether