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Something that caught my attention in Jasnah’s prologue, that I haven’t seen discussed yet, is one of Jasnah’s comments about the Parshendi

 

In truth, Jasnah was happy for her father’s sudden focus on a treaty. It meant she would have a chance to study Parshendi traditions and histories at her leisure.

 

Could it be, she wondered, that scholars have been searching in the wrong ruins all these years?

 

Jasnah believes there is something, some ruins of importance, that the Parshendi have access to. I think it is safe to assume these are the ruins we see in Eshonai’s interlude, at the center of the Shattered Plains.

 

She turned back and strode towards the ruins that dominated Neurock. After so many years there still wasn’t much left of them. Ruins of ruins one might call them.

Eshonai herself had discovered these ruins years ago, just before her expedition that had first encountered humans

From what little they’d learned from their spies over the years, the humans did not know, did not understand. They marched over the uneven surface of the plateaus and saw only natural rock, never knowing that they stepped on the tomb of a city long dead

 

So, what are these ruins?

 

The obvious answer is that these ruins are Urithiru. But that may not be the only answer.

 

In tWoK Jasnah is quite adamant that Urithiru is not on the Shattered Plains. It is possible that she is incorrect, but I find it unlikely that she would be so certain without reason. Jasnah’s notes refer to Urithiru being “Westward,” and it is hard to get less westward than the Shattered Plains.

 

There has been specualtion that Urithiru is located in Shadesmar. The first WoR chapter provides some support for this,

 

“Spren are those ideas—the ideas of collective human experience— somehow come alive. Shadesmar is where that first happens, and it is their place. Though we created it, they shaped it. They live there; they rule there, within their own cities.”

 

“Cities?”

 

“Yes,” Jasnah said, looking back out over the ocean. She seemed troubled. “Spren are wild in their variety. Some are as clever as humans and create cities. Others are like fish and simply swim in the currents.”

 

So, for the moment let’s assume that Jasnah is correct in tWoK and the ruins on the Shattered Plains are not Urithiru. What else could they be?

 

At the Seattle signing in October I asked Brandon to indicate on my map in tWoK something that might be of interest to characters in the book, something that had been searched for.

 

Above the Shattered Plains he wrote “Great Magic unleashed here.”

 

I would guess that this unleashed magic is what caused the plains to shatter.

 

But what was this event?

 

1. Perhaps some kind of physical manifestation of Honor being splintered. This would release the splinters, and could be the unleashed magic.

 

2. Magic on Roshar is very spren-dependent. And as Jasnah discusses in the first WoR chapter:

“By my best guess, spren are elements of the Cognitive Realm that have leaked into the physical world.”

Perhaps the Shattered Plains is a location where this “leakage” occurs… or perhaps it was a dam that burst.

 

3. If Urithiru was in Shadesmar, it may have had some physical correlate. We don’t yet know how relative location and distance works in Shadesmar, or how cities created in Shadesmar might manifest in the physical realm.

Maybe Urithiru, and its assumed destruction, created some echo of ruins in the physical realm.

 

I’m just throwing out a couple ideas, but I’d love to hear more. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from lurking around these forums it’s that 17sharders are boundlessly clever.

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Welcome! Please have an upvote for delurking!

 

One factor to consider is that this was once Natanatan, one of the Silver Kingdoms dating back to the Radiant era.  In the Starfall vision (which also occurs in Natanatan) Dalinar mentions that Natanatan fell centuries before.  There is a New Natanatan offshore currently.  Natanatan must have had one city that was presumably not Urithiru, if not more.  Purely guessing, having population centers experiencing the unleashing of great magic could be a reason for the survivors to relocate and the kingdom to fall.  Still, the plains could have shatterred independently of the kingdom falling, or any of a number of other possibilities. 

 

While I love to connect the few events we know about, it is clear to me that there are many trigger events that we know nothing about.  

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In tWoK Jasnah is quite adamant that Urithiru is not on the Shattered Plains. It is possible that she is incorrect, but I find it unlikely that she would be so certain without reason. Jasnah’s notes refer to Urithiru being “Westward,” and it is hard to get less westward than the Shattered Plains.

The Shattered Plains are located in the East of Roshar.

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I think you were like 2 or 3 people in front of me at that signing. So welcome

 

Ya can't be Urithiru its to far east of the silver kingdom of Alethkar but Shadesmar has possibility could there maybe a location that lends its self to allowing people into Shadesmar?

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Ya can't be Urithiru its to far east of the silver kingdom of Alethkar but Shadesmar has possibility could there maybe a location that lends its self to allowing people into Shadesmar?

 

The problem is that people don't enter Shadesmar - they already exist in it. It's not a separate realm, to hear Jasnah speak of it. When Shallan and Jasnah 'enter' Shadesmar, they're still there on Roshar, their minds are just looking at reality differently (?).

Edited by Moogle
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EDIT: double post

Edited by Cromptj
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The dead cities buried in crem are the cities of Natanatan. The Tower is probably the remains of the kingdom's palace. The etched blades that some of the Parshendi use were probably recovered from the ruins.

The song of Derethil and the wandersail is probably a parable about Urithru with the dead emperor being Honor and the islands residents being radiants. The Origin, which is probably Honor's home, is far to the east and the land the wandersail found is far to the west and may even be the land closest to the Origin, the land closest to honor.

My guess as to the great magic that was unleashed resulting in the shattering of the kingdom is that this release was when Honor and Odium clashed and Honor died.

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The problem is that people don't enter Shadesmar - they already exist in it. It's not a separate realm, to hear Jasnah speak of it. When Shallan and Jasnah 'enter' Shadesmar, they're still there on Roshar, their minds are just looking at reality differently (?).

True but not all things that exist in the cognitive exist in the physical.

 

 

Great magic unleashed maybe it was a Fabrial bomb.

Edited by Arook
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Great magic unleashed maybe it was a Fabrial bomb.

An F-bomb. I like it! Suggestive!

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There is another quote in Way of Kings that suggests that Urithiru is to the west.

 

 

"Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor."

-- Chapter 35, "A Light By Which To See", pg. 519

 

However, it has been theorized on other threads that this quote could be mistranslated. I'm not sure whether the Shattered Plains is Urithiru, but I'm willing to guess that finding Urithiru is not going to be that simple.

 

Haha, F-bomb! I'm really hoping that we figure out what happened to the Shattered Plains sometime soon. 

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Thanks for the welcome, everyone!

 

One factor to consider is that this was once Natanatan, one of the Silver Kingdoms dating back to the Radiant era.  In the Starfall vision (which also occurs in Natanatan) Dalinar mentions that Natanatan fell centuries before.  There is a New Natanatan offshore currently.  Natanatan must have had one city that was presumably not Urithiru, if not more.  Purely guessing, having population centers experiencing the unleashing of great magic could be a reason for the survivors to relocate and the kingdom to fall.  Still, the plains could have shatterred independently of the kingdom falling, or any of a number of other possibilities. 

Good point that this could have been a "normal" city in Natanatan. And the unleashing/shattering could be a very convincing reason for the fall of Natanatan. I would be very surprised if these events were unrelated. But as you say, we don't have quite enough points to connect yet.

 

But onto speculation, I wonder why this particular city? Assuming that this city could have been the capital, perhaps one of the Dawn Cities, why was this the only city affected?

 

 

However, it has been theorized on other threads that this quote could be mistranslated. I'm not sure whether the Shattered Plains is Urithiru, but I'm willing to guess that finding Urithiru is not going to be that simple.
 

An excellent point about that quote being mistranslated. It is the most significant geographic information we have on Urithiru at the moment, and I tend to assume these snippets are solid information, but that is a very unsafe assumption with Brandon's works.

 

It does make me wonder how much the translation issue may play out in what we--and the characters--assume from the information in tWoK.

 

 

I drop the F-bomb when I shatter something the size of a plate. I can't imagine how many I'd drop if I were shatter those plains.

Edited by Ephemera
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Welcome, Ephemera.  Wow, there are four of us now in this thread who were at Seattle.  You, me, hoser, and Arook.  I was the nutter hovering next to Brandon with the recorder.

 

So far for west of Alethela, we have just the one quote which was described to potentially have a mistranslation.  In contrast, Jasnah very strongly insists that Urithiru is not at the Shattered Plains.  I look forward to finding out what information that she has which leads her to such certainty.  

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I had thought from dalinar's chapter excerpt that was read by Brandon, that we saw the start of the battle, which would result in the shattered plains, and the building he saw there was what existed and then became Eshonai's hideout ruins. On top of that I thought that the place the heralds met in the WoK prologue was the tower on the shattered plains, hinting that the destroyed nature of the shattered plains was because of the most recent desolation, desolating the landscape which was once purelake-like in Dalinar's WoR vision excerpt.

I think the excerpts from WoR I'm referring to can be found here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3710-words-of-radiance-readings/

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I think that if the translation was questionsble, Jasnah would have mentioned in her notes.

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The problem is that people don't enter Shadesmar - they already exist in it. It's not a separate realm, to hear Jasnah speak of it. When Shallan and Jasnah 'enter' Shadesmar, they're still there on Roshar, their minds are just looking at reality differently (?).

I believe there's evidence to suggest that you can enter Shadesmar both cognitively AND physically, and that to do the latter is VERY dangerous. Shallan does this accidentally the first time she goes there (so does Jasnah, it seems), and we know from WoB that Shademar traversing is the method by which Hoid travels from world to world.

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I believe there's evidence to suggest that you can enter Shadesmar both cognitively AND physically, and that to do the latter is VERY dangerous. Shallan does this accidentally the first time she goes there (so does Jasnah, it seems), and we know from WoB that Shademar traversing is the method by which Hoid travels from world to world.

 

I don't think Jasnah or Shallan have entered Shadesmar "physically". There is no evidence to suggest this.

Edited by marianmi
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In fact, there is. Brandon told me, and we have audio of him saying that usually Shallan just enters Shadesmar by closing her eyes, but Jasnah prefers to go physically.

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In fact, there is. Brandon told me, and we have audio of him saying that usually Shallan just enters Shadesmar by closing her eyes, but Jasnah prefers to go physically.

 

Hm, I wonder if Jasnah having the Transportation ability has anything to do with that...

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I think that if the translation was questionsble, Jasnah would have mentioned in her notes.

 

I mixed up the note from the westward quote with another quote.  For the westward of Alethela quote she does not question the translation.  You are right.

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Don't forget Kaladin's brief ride on the storm in Ch 46 of WoK:

 

 

"He roared past the Shattered Plains.  They looked as if something very large had hit them at the center, sending rippling breaks outward."

 

From his vantage point, this would mean that something very heavy was dropped in the middle of the plains, like a hammerblow.  Furthermore, Kaladin notices that there is a large plateau at the center.  I would imagine this is the remains of whatever fell and shattered the Plains.

 

One might imagine that if Urithiru existed only in the Cognitive Realm (which I find unlikely) and was suddenly pulled back into the Physical Realm, perhaps distances didn't line up right and it materialized several thousand feet above where it should be.

 

I am personally in favor of the idea that Urithiru was a flying city reachable by portals and it was knocked out of the sky by Odium's forces or the Knights abandoning their oaths.

 

However, one might consider ways of utilizing a pressure surge to cause the same effects - simply bring a high pressure column of air down in the middle.  Or you might consider binding a huge section in the middle of the plains upwards with gravity, then let it fall back down.

 

Whatever the calamity, whatever city or civilization that existed on what is now the Shattered Plains was almost certainly wiped out by some large force suddenly coming to bear on the center of the Plains.

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In fact, there is. Brandon told me, and we have audio of him saying that usually Shallan just enters Shadesmar by closing her eyes, but Jasnah prefers to go physically.

Does this mean that when Shallan "blinks" and takes a memory, she is linking to Shadesmar in some way?

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I think her Memory ability is linked somehow to Shadesmar - that's why she can see in her Memory the cryptics as they are in shadesmar, not as their representation in the physical.

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Makes sense… Shadesmar is basically the cognitive kingdom. When Shallan blinks, it freezes a 'memory' in her mind. Memory work seems pretty cognitive to me. She's probably taking an image of exactly how she perceives everything around her, which is the very essence of the cognitive realm.

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Slightly off topic, but... wrong ruins? What other ruins could she be referring too? Remains of Feverstone Keep, or an obsidion tower in the Purelake possibly? If so that could provide Dalinar the proof he needs that his visions are real.

Are we all digging in the wrong place?

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After reviewing Dalinar's vision in WoR chapter 4,  The "Obsidian" structure at the purelake seems to be the gateway to something(Urithiru?).  Consequently, it is the purelake where we see our three travelers waiting for Hoid in WoK.  Is it possible that traveling between worlds must happen at a specific place within Roshar?

 

That being said,  It would make sense to me that when Dalinar was a soldier in his vision, he was guarding the Gateway to other worlds entirely.  This leads me to believe that Urithiru was not even on Roshar, yet still in the physical realm.  Whoever Sja-anat is, he has a great desire to get through this gateway.

 

From Dalinar's Vision,

 

“It’s here, then,” the knight said. “Sja-anat’s spy. Caeb, run to the checkpoint. The rest of you, keep watching. It won’t be able to go far without a carrier.” She yanked something off her belt, a small pouch.

"
 
a carrier being somebody who has the ability to get through the gateway?
 
This is just a theory!
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