Thoughts on the Diagram

[VoltCruelerz Pahn Kahl]

Yolen = Tranquilline Halls

That...  that sounds really interesting.  So reclaiming them would mean what, kicking Odium off Yolen?  I thought he was on Braize.

[Oversleep Bondsmith]

Or and this is an interesting theory I just thought of, perhaps the ancestors of the Rosharan people were humans that fled from Yolen (Yolen = Tranquilline Halls) and T has the belief that they're therefore part of the original humans and therefore special in a different way from others, and more important to maintain that seed of humanity.

I remember at least on Scadrial humans were created by the shards there, Roshar has a mythology about a mysterious heavenly place from which they were displaced, so far on Roshar the theology/mythology has been uncannily true, the myths of voidbringers and heralds and Knights Radiants and desolations all true (though more fiction to some than others).

Since Damnation is Braize, aren't Tranquiline Halls the other planet?

[Stormgate Mistborn]

Maybe the battle for Yolen can only be fought in the Cosmere afterlife. The fight for the Tranquiline Halls is, after all, where all good Vorin soldiers go when they die.

[Oversleep Bondsmith]

I saw some theory that the ultimate battle for cosmere will take place in all three realms - Spiritual, all of those who died (Vin, Elend, Leras, Ati, Tanavast and so on), Cognitive those who died but didn't pass on (Kelsier...erm, cannot recall more Cognitive Shadows but the Stormfather. Maybe some Radiants can fight in Cognitive, like Elsecallers and Lightweavers. Maybe Shardholders?) and Physical the rest of heroes.

[Stormgate Mistborn]

Thank you for summing up the Cosmere Civil War.

[DreamEternal Kandra]

I saw some theory that the ultimate battle for cosmere will take place in all three realms - Spiritual, all of those who died (Vin, Elend, Leras, Ati, Tanavast and so on), Cognitive those who died but didn't pass on (Kelsier...erm, cannot recall more Cognitive Shadows but the Stormfather. Maybe some Radiants can fight in Cognitive, like Elsecallers and Lightweavers. Maybe Shardholders?) and Physical the rest of heroes.

The Spiritual realm isn't the true afterlife, though. It is beyond the Realms, and if shards can interact with it it is not easily.

Edited December 14, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[manavortex Ardent]

Hailing from IT here, I have some arcane knowledge about the Diagram, mostly due to the fact that it is how AI works. *makes an important face, then corrects seating of hood*

 

You're right in that part where the diagram gets increasingly more fuzzy the more outdated it is. But obviously super-brilliant Taravangian has planned for that and is trying to limit the fuzziness by removing chaos factors. (By "removing" I mean "assassinating").

 

I hereby theorise that he glimpsed in the Cognitive Realm, similar to the aforementioned Duralumin-enhanced Atium burn, and saw all the possible futures lined up before him. I also believe that he then chose the one path that he judged the most beneficial - the one with the highest chances of success and the least casualties. He then wrote down the tipping points where that path would be at risk, so he could influence them later.

 

The broader and more vague is Diagram, the less it would degrade.

Yes, that's totally how this works - if you want to look into it more deeply, google "finite state machine" and ascend from there (or descend into madness). Hence the "if Dalinar does A, assassinate, if B, ally". 

 

 

Regardless, it looks like some external force is twisting Taravangian's mind away from focusing on what it doesn't want him to focus on. 

Yes! YESSS! How could I not see this? Oooh! \o/

 

Mr.T was thinking very big and very fast when he made the Diagram, but he sure as hell wasn't thinking straight. 

Wellllll. From his POV, he was thinking straight. If you're fast enough, you'll warp curves into straight lines. If you're brilliant enough, then your thoughts will seem erratic to others. I have a fairly high IQ myself and seem entirely erratic to others, yet I've met a few people who's trail of thought I couldn't follow straight, so I had to hurry after them and hope that the bends they'd taken were shortcuts that I just couldn't see. So, I guess, straight or not is a matter of perspective. I bet on most days he'd agree with you.  

 

I'm almost positive that Odium had a hand in the diagram. Brandon has said that if you mapped out the intelligence of Taravangian on various days there would be an obvious pattern.

It's probably normally distributed, some extreme spikes would still be within the limits of plausibility. But the idea of Odium influencing that diagramstrikes me as incredibly charming, I think I will be on board of that theory until a Highstorm blows me off. It's exactly the kind of oh-so-subtle manipulations that those fetchers are up to.

 

part of me would like to think he mixed up his boon and his bane and is focusing on the wrong one.

 

That's - but - it's brilliant! What if Odium set him up, but the Nightwatcher anticipated Odium setting him up and gave him exactly what he'd need to be successful _despite_ all this? My eyes are round with wonderment!

[DreamEternal Kandra]

Hailing from IT here, I have some arcane knowledge about the Diagram, mostly due to the fact that it is how AI works. *makes an important face, then corrects seating of hood*

You're right in that part where the diagram gets increasingly more fuzzy the more outdated it is. But obviously super-brilliant Taravangian has planned for that and is trying to limit the fuzziness by removing chaos factors. (By "removing" I mean "assassinating").

That is the problem. By assuming his way is the only way and removing all he cannot control, Mr.T may be diminishing humanity's chance of survival by removing important resources and viable alternatives.

Wellllll. From his POV, he was thinking straight. If you're fast enough, you'll warp curves into straight lines. If you're brilliant enough, then your thoughts will seem erratic to others. I have a fairly high IQ myself and seem entirely erratic to others, yet I've met a few people who's trail of thought I couldn't follow straight, so I had to hurry after them and hope that the bends they'd taken were shortcuts that I just couldn't see. So, I guess, straight or not is a matter of perspective. I bet on most days he'd agree with you.

No matter how intelligent a madman is, his curves, jumps and spacetime warps of deranged reasoning will hardly turn into straight lines leading to a logical conclusion.

It isn't about his reasoning being hard to follow, it is about it being based on wrong premises or conclusions, like that the only(or best) way to ensure humanity's survival is to control everything, and then creating uncontrollable chaos at the worst possible time in order to achieve that control.

The fact that the everstorm came before Mr.T was able to effectively take control and organize even a single country, yet after he already desestructured almost the whole world, is proof of how flawed is the Diagram's assumption that achieving universal control by a single group, no matter how enlightened and knowing, is an effective enough plan to justify all atrocities commited in its name.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[manavortex Ardent]

That is the problem. By assuming his way is the only way and removing all he cannot control, Mr.T may be diminishing humanity's chance of survival by removing important resources and viable alternatives.

 

 

Yeb, he does. But his intentions are pure. What was it they said about the steps to hell..?

[DreamEternal Kandra]

Yeb, he does. But his intentions are pure.

I've never questioned that. I just pointed some pragmatic reasons a plan like the Diagram is a bad thing, to complement the moral and ethical ones.

Mr.T isn't evil, he is just a proof intelligence and foolishness aren't mutualy exclusive.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[manavortex Ardent]

Yes, and I think that's the beauty of him as a character.

What if the nightwatcher is setting him up against Odium?

[Moogle Voidbringer]

The fact that the everstorm came before Mr.T was able to effectively take control and organize even a single country, yet after he already desestructured almost the whole world, is proof of how flawed is the Diagram's assumption that achieving universal control by a single group, no matter how enlightened and knowing, is an effective enough plan to justify all atrocities commited in its name.

 

The Diagram did predict the date of the arrival of the Everstorm and they had Death Rattles backing up the date. The people implementing the Diagram knew this was going to happen.

 

It might look bad, but I'd be hesitant to claim that Taravangian's destabilization plan by itself shows the Diagram is "flawed". The people implementing the Diagram recognize that it can be wrong and off and have the read the whole thing. If it was obviously going to lead to disaster then they probably wouldn't have followed it.

 

I mean, Taravangian is going to eventually have the ability to deal with the Unmade. The Diagram is clearly a little bit better than "throw world into chaos, ???, profit."

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[DreamEternal Kandra]

The Diagram did predict the date of the arrival of the Everstorm and they had Death Rattles backing up the date. The people implementing the Diagram knew this was going to happen.

It might look bad, but I'd be hesitant to claim that Taravangian's destabilization plan by itself shows the Diagram is "flawed". The people implementing the Diagram recognize that it can be wrong and off and have the read the whole thing. If it was obviously going to lead to disaster then they probably wouldn't have followed it.

What Death Rattles are you talking about? The only one I remember is the 1000 days one, that was quite off.

[hypatia High Prelan]

Mr T had asked Nightwatcher for a way to ensure the survival of humanity.

The result was the fluctuation of IQ, but also of empathy.

How about T himself is manipulating this goal because he allways suppresses the empathic part of himself?

Not the Diagram is wrong, but the interpretation without empathy.

Perhaps only acting on one part of his boon is the problem.

[Moogle Voidbringer]

What Death Rattles are you talking about? The only one I remember is the 1000 days one, that was quite off.

 

Was it that off? The wording is:

 

“The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”

 

This was in Shashahes (6th month, 5th week, 1st day) 1171, and the Everstorm came in 1173 (8th month, close to the start of it), if I'm not misreading the epigraphs. Each year on Roshar is 500 days, each month is 50 days, and each week is 5 days.

 

The Death Rattle was within 8% accuracy at the least. I'd kill for error bounds that low in my prophecies of world apocalypse, if you'll forgive the awful joke. And the date may have referred to Venli discovering stormform, or taking it up for herself. At the point she did that, the Everstorm was "guaranteed". The grammar is a little off in the above quote, but makes more sense with this interpretation.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[Garfield Skaa]

The fact that the everstorm came before Mr.T was able to effectively take control and organize even a single country, yet after he already desestructured almost the whole world, is proof of how flawed is the Diagram's assumption that achieving universal control by a single group, no matter how enlightened and knowing, is an effective enough plan to justify all atrocities commited in its name.

 

 

 

Indeed. The Sons of Honor and Taravangian are the most deluded and dangerous players on Roshar.

 

I wonder how the situation as a whole political, religious and social structure on Roshar will play out, now they get regular everstorms and monster infestations to cope with while crazy T and Dalinar both stupidly compete for control instead of working together.

[Seerow Oldblood]

Was it that off? The wording is:

 

“The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”

 

This was in Shashahes (6th month, 5th week, 1st day) 1171, and the Everstorm came in 1173 (8th month, close to the start of it), if I'm not misreading the epigraphs. Each year on Roshar is 500 days, each month is 50 days, and each week is 5 days.

 

The Death Rattle was within 8% accuracy at the least. I'd kill for error bounds that low in my prophecies of world apocalypse, if you'll forgive the awful joke. And the date may have referred to Venli discovering stormform, or taking it up for herself. At the point she did that, the Everstorm was "guaranteed". The grammar is a little off in the above quote, but makes more sense with this interpretation.

 

That is a fair interpretation. Personally I was interpretting it as coming in the middle of the Weeping when no highstorm was supposed to happen. It was described a couple of times as an event that occurs every 2 years, or every 1000 days. So it could be saying "The 1000th day is when the Everstorm comes".

 

Slightly ruined by there being another empty weeping that occurred after the death rattle and before the Everstorm hit, but that was where my mind immediately went after seeing "1000 days"

[Moogle Voidbringer]

Oh, that's right... the Weeping would add up to four weeks, possibly. I guess it was more within 10% than 8%. I shouldn't have tried to be precise without thinking things through.

[Oversleep Bondsmith]

Yes, that's totally how this works - if you want to look into it more deeply, google "finite state machine" and ascend from there (or descend into madness). Hence the "if Dalinar does A, assassinate, if B, ally".

No need, I already passed this course Branching is fine as long as there are frequent bridges in the graph.

I wonder why did SuperTaravangian encode one paragraph of the text in "pattern 15" using "pattern 1" as key. Or how writing two texts every second letter together was better than writing it normally.

[manavortex Ardent]

I wonder why did SuperTaravangian...

... it's probably like finding little gifts from drunk you, back when you are sober you again. Must've been an entirely different state of consciousness. 

 

Or he didn't want it easy to read, so it would be harder to steal and abuse? Just to suggest something likely for a change.

[Seerow Oldblood]

Oh, that's right... the Weeping would add up to four weeks, possibly. I guess it was more within 10% than 8%. I shouldn't have tried to be precise without thinking things through.

 

I am pretty sure the weeping is included in the 500 day year.

 

When talking about the weeping, I remember there being a line that says something like 'the weeping with no highstorm is part of the 1000 day 2-year cycle...". Which strongly implies that the two weepings of the two years (one with a highstorm and one without) are included in the 500 day year, and not something outside of them.

 

 

On an unrelated note, it is crazy how symmetrical even the calendar for Roshar is. 20 hour days, 5 day weeks, 10 week months, 10 month years, 2 year cycles. I know it's intentional and it has been noted before, but it is really cool.

[Moogle Voidbringer]

I am pretty sure the weeping is included in the 500 day year.

 

When talking about the weeping, I remember there being a line that says something like 'the weeping with no highstorm is part of the 1000 day 2-year cycle...". Which strongly implies that the two weepings of the two years (one with a highstorm and one without) are included in the 500 day year, and not something outside of them.

 

Sorry, I was unclear... I meant that my calculations used the Diagram's list of highstorm dates (which list the last 10 before the Everstorm) and I used that to determine a maximum % the Death Rattles were off when they said 1000 days. The Everstorm was an unknown amount of time after the last highstorm, because it came during the Weeping. So it could have been up to ~4 weeks after the last highstorm date in the Diagram.

[galendo Artifabrian]

The fact that the everstorm came before Mr.T was able to effectively take control and organize even a single country, yet after he already desestructured almost the whole world, is proof of how flawed is the Diagram's assumption that achieving universal control by a single group, no matter how enlightened and knowing, is an effective enough plan to justify all atrocities commited in its name.

 

Not necessarily.  In addition to what Moogle mentioned, it's worth nothing that the goal of the Diagram isn't to stop the Everstorm or even to stop the True Desolation.  It's entirely possible that the time frame for the Diagram is something like Destabilize world --> Everstorm comes --> Pick up the pieces --> Profit! (er, I mean, Save humanity).

 

Without knowing the time frame of the Diagram, we can't know whether the Everstorm coming when it did is a problem for the Diagramists or not.

 

I wonder why did SuperTaravangian encode one paragraph of the text in "pattern 15" using "pattern 1" as key. Or how writing two texts every second letter together was better than writing it normally.

 

The encryption was probably because he didn't want the information falling into the wrong hands.  As for the writing two texts every second letter thing, I got the impression that was more a matter of running out of space and needing to write over what he'd already written because he had nowhere else to write.  AaSnIdFaOnNoEtMhEeSrSoAnGeEwWaAsSwWrRiItTtTeEnNlLiIkKeEtThHiIsS.

[Stormgate Mistborn]

Wow. Taravangian was insane that day. There is a reason the term 'mad genius' comes so easily to us.

[Oversleep Bondsmith]

Well, that would explain inventing new language on the fly to better express his ideas - but encoding things without leaving the key, not even pointing to which paragraph they should look for the key is rather counterproductive.