Rosharian Biodiversity

[Oversleep]

I really like the theory that they're living off Stormlight - that would explain why animals grow gems inside their bodies.

[king of nowhere]

It's not just gravity.  The greatshells are closest to crustaceans,  which have very simple respiration systems.

 

 

Something the size of the greatshells wouldn't be able to get enough oxygen without help.

crustacean on our planet have no specific respiratory organ and are therefore limited in their size by how much oxygen they can exchange through their skin, as per the square-cube law. On roshar, nothing forbids the greatshells to have lungs or something similar.

In fact, I'd say chasmfiends would be fully possible without magic. After all, some dinosaurs were bigger than them. Although they would not be able to move fast or be agile without magic help. We know they are feeding off stormlight because of their gemhearts and the spren, otherwise they could still be normal animals.

As for skyheels, reduced gravity + denser atmosphere + sacks of gas make it reasonable that they could fly, although probably not very well without stormlight. It would be very peculiar to see a creature that has evolved to make elemental hydrogen ((the only other candidate gas, helium, is too rare in the atmosphere of a terrestrial planet; the gravity is low enough that it would escape in millions of years, so roshar can't have much of it) and use it as a sort of flying balloon, but life is surprising. Again, we know they use investiture to help themselves because of spren, but they could be justified with mundane means.

[Stormgate]

crustacean on our planet have no specific respiratory organ and are therefore limited in their size by how much oxygen they can exchange through their skin, as per the square-cube law. On roshar, nothing forbids the greatshells to have lungs or something similar.

In fact, I'd say chasmfiends would be fully possible without magic. After all, some dinosaurs were bigger than them. Although they would not be able to move fast or be agile without magic help. We know they are feeding off stormlight because of their gemhearts and the spren, otherwise they could still be normal animals.

 

I'd like to point out that dinosaurs had no giant shell, which is likely quite heavy. They do require some sort of assistance to move, or else they would be crushed by their own weight.

[Vander]

crustacean on our planet have no specific respiratory organ and are therefore limited in their size by how much oxygen they can exchange through their skin, as per the square-cube law. On roshar, nothing forbids the greatshells to have lungs or something.

On the other hand, that logic kind of renders the entire argument pointless. What is the point of saying that just because the world is different, the animal does not conform to any of the things we have observed on Earth?

 

Of course, I might be misunderstanding you. Is there any other point you wish to make?

[hoidhunter]

I'd like to point out that dinosaurs had no giant shell, which is likely quite heavy. They do require some sort of assistance to move, or else they would be crushed by their own weight.

 

Oh really?   

[king of nowhere]

On the other hand, that logic kind of renders the entire argument pointless. What is the point of saying that just because the world is different, the animal does not conform to any of the things we have observed on Earth?

 

Of course, I might be misunderstanding you. Is there any other point you wish to make?

Animals do need to conform to the same physical laws, and they have to deal with evolutionary pressure. that's where the argument can go. Nothing, on the other hand, forces those animals to have the same internal structure that our animals do just based on similarities on the external shape.

So, a giant crustacean cannot exist without magic, or without an atmosphere with at least ten times more oxygen than our, because of the way they breath. But a giant crustacean-shaped animal? Sure, why not? Just because it is multi-legged and with a carapace, it says nothing on how it breaths.

 

As for the wheight of the carapace, hoidhunter already answered that. I may add that foor the square-cube law, a large animal would have a much lgihter carapace compared to its body mass than a small animal. On the other hand, a large animal is also less strong compared to its body wheight, so the carapace still hinders it more. but large armored dinosaurs had existed.

[VoltCruelerz]

I think we'd have to say that the crustacean-like creatures of Roshar do have lungs.  After all, we've seen chasmfiends make several deliberate vocalizations.  It's possible they could do that with stormlight instead I suppose, but it seems utterly wasteful.  Then again, from what we saw of larkins, it might be the case that all such creatures can suck the stormlight out of things.  Perhaps the gemheart in that sense is the equivalent of a lung, though if that's the case I suspect that during the weeping the fauna of Roshar would have to get lethargic/briefly hibernate.

[Vander]

Animals do need to conform to the same physical laws, and they have to deal with evolutionary pressure. that's where the argument can go. Nothing, on the other hand, forces those animals to have the same internal structure that our animals do just based on similarities on the external shape.

So, a giant crustacean cannot exist without magic, or without an atmosphere with at least ten times more oxygen than our, because of the way they breath. But a giant crustacean-shaped animal? Sure, why not? Just because it is multi-legged and with a carapace, it says nothing on how it breaths.

 

As for the wheight of the carapace, hoidhunter already answered that. I may add that foor the square-cube law, a large animal would have a much lgihter carapace compared to its body mass than a small animal. On the other hand, a large animal is also less strong compared to its body wheight, so the carapace still hinders it more. but large armored dinosaurs had existed.

What I was trying to say was that if we cannot use the knowledge of evolution WE have, then there is no real point to the entire thread.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Car'a'carn

[The Ninja Yodeler]

I would suggest instead of saying 'Greatshells cant exist because their shells would crush them', try to theorize how it COULD evolve & survive (using our understanding of evolution of course, like you said). Treat it as if it truly exists and try to figure out how. Seems like more fun to me anyway.

[Vander]

I would suggest instead of saying 'Greatshells cant exist because their shells would crush them', try to theorize how it COULD evolve & survive (using our understanding of evolution of course, like you said). Treat it as if it truly exists and try to figure out how. Seems like more fun to me anyway.

Exactly what I'm pushing for, actually. Bravo.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

 

Oh really?   

Gamera was a giant turtle that could breathe fire and fly by retracting into its shell and breaking wind, not a dinosaur. 

[king of nowhere]

I would suggest instead of saying 'Greatshells cant exist because their shells would crush them', try to theorize how it COULD evolve & survive (using our understanding of evolution of course, like you said). Treat it as if it truly exists and try to figure out how. Seems like more fun to me anyway.

 

 

Exactly what I'm pushing for, actually. Bravo.

And it's also what I was saying.

[Vander]

And it's also what I was saying.

... Well, I've been misunderstanding you, then. Sorry.

 

Well, the Skyeels topic seems exhausted, so onto the next topic! 

 

Anybody else curious about the giant eye-squid-thing? What was it's name again? I need images to think about it.

 

Also, what do you think comes out of the chrysalis when a Chasmfiend finishes it's pupating process? 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Car'a'carn

[VoltCruelerz]

... Well, I've been misunderstanding you, then. Sorry.

 

Well, the Skyeels topic seems exhausted, so onto the next topic! 

 

Anybody else curious about the giant eye-squid-thing? What was it's name again? I need images to think about it.

 

Also, what do you think comes out of the chrysalis when a Chasmfiend finishes it's pupating process? 

Santhid

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/9/94/Sketchbook_santhid.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140709024020

[Vander]

Santhid

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/9/94/Sketchbook_santhid.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140709024020

There we go! Thank you!

 

So, yeah. How do Santhids work? They seem a bit... big to be predators, but that shouldn't discount the possibility. Why do they have the giant eye? Why are it's tentacles so long?

[Oversleep]

Maybe they feed on plankton?

[Vander]

Maybe they feed on plankton?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. However, it does not explain the tentacles. I'm thinking something along the lines of jellyfish, which use the tentacles to stun prey. Also, also, again, what's the point of the HUGE eye, then?

[king of nowhere]

I'm also puzzled about them floating. I don't remember the details, but I seem to remember that they allways stay afloat; but it would be very weird, a water animal who cannot go underwater. Maybe they can submerge, but normally won't. The huge eye implies the shantid is a predator (predators tend to have good frontal vision to focus on a prey; preys tend to have fuuzzy but large periphereal vision, to spot attacks from every side). But it doesn't seem fast enough to chase a prey. Maybe it uses the tentacles to dig the sea bottom for the creatures that are hiding there? that would also justify the good vision. Or maybe there's a reason connected to stormlight. Maybe they prefer to float because they need to also recharge during a highstorm, but they can't sense them underwater.

[VoltCruelerz]

The highstorm thing would make sense.  As for the eye, I'm not sure there is a valid reason.  It doesn't have binocular vision and it's underwater, so the vision range is limited.  It is probably still a predator, perhaps using sonar or something and relies on ambushes.  With tentacles that size though, it would have to be something of an alpha predator hunting down slow-moving but large prey.  That implies it goes after heavily armored prey, so it probably has a hard beak or maybe it uses stormlight to drill through the prey's carapace or something.

 

 Given that, I'd guess it keeps its tentacles up near the surface when lying in wait, perhaps bunched up at the surface.  When it sees prey coming, it lunges down and wraps around and pulls itself to its meal before it can escape.  That also explains the hard shell on top since the prey would probably try to whack it off by beating on the top of it.

 

As for why it had its tentacles all the way extended when it was at the boat, the symbiotic fish that follow the boat might have an easier time cleaning off its tentacles when they're extended than when they're bunched up.

Edited December 14, 2015 by VoltCruelerz

[Stormgate]

It helped Shallan. Why it did that, I don't know, but it is at least somewhat sentient.

[Vander]

The highstorm thing would make sense.  As for the eye, I'm not sure there is a valid reason.  It doesn't have binocular vision and it's underwater, so the vision range is limited.  It is probably still a predator, perhaps using sonar or something and relies on ambushes.  With tentacles that size though, it would have to be something of an alpha predator hunting down slow-moving but large prey.  That implies it goes after heavily armored prey, so it probably has a hard beak or maybe it uses stormlight to drill through the prey's carapace or something.

 

 Given that, I'd guess it keeps its tentacles up near the surface when lying in wait, perhaps bunched up at the surface.  When it sees prey coming, it lunges down and wraps around and pulls itself to its meal before it can escape.  That also explains the hard shell on top since the prey would probably try to whack it off by beating on the top of it.

 

As for why it had its tentacles all the way extended when it was at the boat, the symbiotic fish that follow the boat might have an easier time cleaning off its tentacles when they're extended than when they're bunched up.

Seems fine, though I always thought that the shell was against Highstorms: they could  prove deadly to a "soft" creature, which seems to be a better reason to evolve a shell. Especially if it's always afloat.

[Archibaldie]

Honestly i thought Santhids used their tentacles passively rather than actively, since they're just hanging in the water below they could catch a lot of plankton. Also if they're poisonous Santhids could catch some fish with them, while also functioniong as a defensive measure to predators. With the hard shell and (presumably) good vision and sentience, the santhids wouldn't be anythings prey as they can defend themselves so well with a hard shell, and the only soft part being coated in poison, just like some species of jellyfish.

 

Also, I've wondered if Chasmfiends evolved from Santhids, presuming Rosharan life, as ours, began in the ocean. Santhids moving to shallow waters, or the waters becoming shallower, would lead to them developing shorter tentacles as the extra length would be worthless.

As the Santhids moved (or got moved) closer to shore, their tentacles would be used for pushing along the bottom in shallower places, and their main food source would turn from plankton, to fish as the volume of water they could sweep got smaller, which caused them to develop a mouth to better ingest fish and the like. Some of the tentacles would then evolve into claws to catch and manipulate prey. As the tentacles got stronger to push along the bottom faster, and even shorter, they eventually got covered in shell to make them more rigid for easier movement.

This would lead to santhids developing into amphibians as they have now essentially developed legs. As they are now on land they developed smaller eyes which are easier to shield against highstorms. On land they they developed to what we now call Chasmfiends.

 

I don't know if Santhids have gemhearts but I don't think it's too far fetched to believe they do. What a Santhid does with stormlight I don't know. They could potentially be using it to gain knowledge through the cognitive realm and visiting Shadesmar, which would partly explain their sentience.

[king of nowhere]

I see many people assuming shantids are sentient, but do we know that? So faar the only indication we have is that one of them saved shallan from drowing, but even dolphins have been known to do so. It could easily be just a smart animal.

[Stormgate]

There is some argument that dolphins and even elephants are sentient.

[VoltCruelerz]

Sentient just means self aware in this context. Dolphins are sentient for instance.  They're not sapient though. Presumably santhids aren't either.

Edited December 15, 2015 by VoltCruelerz