7/12/15 - AuthorityHellas16 - When Good Angels Do Nothing - Prologue [V,D] - 4,239 Words

[AuthorityHellas16]

Hi all,

My name is AuthorityHellas16 and I’ve been working on this epic “science fantasy mash-up” work for about five years now. It's about an angel who rebels against his God and government, but knows he has to fight the Devil as well.
Obviously, given the subject matter and the characters, this work has strong religious and anti-religious overtones. I want to emphasise that this is not meant to be a pedestal from which I can beat you over the head with my opinions; it’s meant to be about the nature of good and evil and a character recovering from a lifetime of trauma. If anyone has significant feelings about religious themes (mainly Christian, but it could affect any monotheistic religion) please tell me if this particularly offends you; I’d like to make it as non-threatening as possible. 

Thanks for the feedback. I’m very excited to have people read this at last.

AuthorityHellas16

[Mandamon]

First off, welcome to Reading Excuses!

 

I thought this was well written and I enjoyed the story so far.  You have quite a bit of action and conflict to start, so it draws the reader in.  The pace and characters were good.  I will say that Hellas is the only one who seems competent.  No one else really does anything to help, which is not really what I expect from a bunch of angels.

 

That leads into the biggest issue I have with this, which deals with the underlying worldbuilding (below).  I'm not offended by the religious aspects--I'm just thinking about it with reference to the myths and beliefs prevalent in especially our western culture.

 

Notes and Concerns:

pg 3: "Lucifer closed his eyes and looked away. He could not mention the voices that echoed in his ears every night, telling him of the plight of the humans under Elohim’s control, "

--You switch POV here from Hellas to Lucifer.

 

The trinity don't say or do anything the whole time.  From their names, I assume they and Michael have awesome powers.  But they just seem like sort of lazy humans.  Micheal has a sword.  Hellas seems to have more magical power than the trinity itself.

 

Lucifer could have stabbed Elohim easily while he was waiting for Hellas and Micheal.  I assume he had some reason not to?

 

Prologue: Does the rest of the book happen to someone else or far in the future?  If it picks up right after Hellas is arrested, I would make this chapter 1, instead of a prologue.  So far, my best guess is that the next chapter picks up right after, but I could be wrong...

 

 

Worldbuilding Questions:

You show us Earth, then rest of the action takes place in heaven.  But there are constant reference to bodies, implements like pitchforks, and angels bleeding and dying.  How is heaven different from Earth?  Is in a different kind of reality, or just on another planet (For example, the Fey realm vs. Asgard from the Marvel universe)

 

The pre-existing names gave me some problems.  For example, you seem to set the time as around WW1 from the scene on Earth, but Lucifer has been a fallen angel and the open antithesis of heaven for thousands of years before this, according to several religions.  We know he's the bad guy.  So is this an alternate Earth where the concept of evil has not disassociated itself from good?  Then how did WW1 happen?  Or is time flexible?  Then there is no need to rush anywhere.  I don't think you want these questions to intrude on the story you're telling, but I can't help thinking about them the whole time, which draws me out of the story.

 

Anyway, I did enjoy it overall, so I'm interested to see how it progresses from here.

[rohyu]

I really liked the fights. The way each fallen angel died was exciting. You did a good job setting up an interesting story. And the cliffhanger at the end worked for me and made me want to keep reading.

 

I wanted to add to/respond to a few things Mand said.

Like Mand, I had a hard time coming to terms with what parts of the real world bible are accurate in regards to your story. 

Lucifer had been a fallen angel and the open antithesis of heaven for thousands of years before this, according to several religions.  We know he's the bad guy.

 

I actually thought having Lucifer show that he liked humans did a good job distancing the story from the bible, at least a little bit. It could explain why he is still in heaven.

 

 

 

 

The sense I got is that the timeline on earth happened the way real history happened, but the bible got only bits and pieces of information correct.

 

I think the inaction of the trinity is the main reason Lucifer is leading a revolution.

 

I agree that Lucifer could have attacked the Trinity instead of dropping his weapon.

 

I got the impression AuthorityHellas was trying for a third person omniscient voice in the story, but I wasn't sure.

 

Now for my own thoughts. There were a few plot points that gave me pause.

 

Hellas says that no one would believe Lucifer was behind the uprising, but then when he gets to Catherine he says they were right all along about Lucifer planning something.  It seems like they should have seen the connection.

 

Pg6: Lucifer says he asked Michael about Hellas on page 1, but then Hellas says that Michael will never believe that Lucifer is leading a revolt. What did Lucifer say to Michael that wouldn't make Michael suspicious of why Lucifer was asking about one of the most powerful angels in heaven?

 

Pg7:

I wish I didn’t,’ Hellas replied. ‘We’ve got trouble in the city.’ Any other day, this news would be enough to get Michael out of his gown and into his armour. But the idiot chose now to wave a hand dismissively”

 

   Why was today different?

 

I dont find it plausible that Lucifer would be able to fight his way inside the temple housing the Trinity without anyone noticing. Hellas had to rouse everyone, rather than an alarm going up because angels were dieing. The temple had guards, and there were fallen angels standing out front. Someone would have noticed something.

 

Pg13:

Lucifer summoned his wings and catapulted himself into the air, smashing through the skylight at the top of the cylindrical chamber

 

Why didn't Lucifer use the skylight to get in and avoid some of the guards?

 

 

Looking forward to reading chapter 1 . Partly to find out what parts of the bible are 'real' in your story. I love re-tellings and stories about alternate history, and this story seems like it could be both a sort-of re-telling of the bible as well as an alternate history for earth.

[AuthorityHellas16]

Thanks so much for the feedback, guys. I'll try and answer your queries without too many spoilers. Happily, many of the things you mentioned are plot points that will be addressed later. 

 

The trinity don't say or do anything the whole time.  From their names, I assume they and Michael have awesome powers.  But they just seem like sort of lazy humans.  Micheal has a sword.  Hellas seems to have more magical power than the Trinity itself.

 

That's a good pick up, Mandamon. The Trinity are incredibly powerful Forgers who have ruled the angels and Okhar ("archangels") for thousands of years. However, as rohyu noted, their apathy is a major plot point and the major source of motivation behind Lucifer's (and later Hellas') actions. It was very deliberate that they don't give a flying fart that their city is under attack. 

 

As for Michael, in my head he relies more on his sword and skill than on magic. I should make a better emphasis of that, so thanks

 

Lucifer could have stabbed Elohim easily while he was waiting for Hellas and Micheal.  I assume he had some reason not to?

 

This is something that I never noticed, so thank you for pointing it out. In my head, Hellas and Michael only arrived moments after Lucifer busted into the Temple. I should make that clearer.

 

Prologue: Does the rest of the book happen to someone else or far in the future?  If it picks up right after Hellas is arrested, I would make this chapter 1, instead of a prologue.  So far, my best guess is that the next chapter picks up right after, but I could be wrong...

 

In an older version of the prologue, I mentioned that Hellas' dream took place twelve years before the present, and the war between Heaven and the hellspawn has been going for over a decade. I've been doing an exercise where I cut 10% from each chapter during my revision, an idea I stole from the Writing Excuses podcast. I must have cut it out, so sorry for the confusion. I'll make sure that's clearer.

 

Worldbuilding Questions:

You show us Earth, then rest of the action takes place in heaven.  But there are constant reference to bodies, implements like pitchforks, and angels bleeding and dying.  How is heaven different from Earth?  Is in a different kind of reality, or just on another planet (For example, the Fey realm vs. Asgard from the Marvel universe)

 

The pre-existing names gave me some problems.  For example, you seem to set the time as around WW1 from the scene on Earth, but Lucifer has been a fallen angel and the open antithesis of heaven for thousands of years before this, according to several religions.  We know he's the bad guy.  So is this an alternate Earth where the concept of evil has not disassociated itself from good?  Then how did WW1 happen?  Or is time flexible?  Then there is no need to rush anywhere.  I don't think you want these questions to intrude on the story you're telling, but I can't help thinking about them the whole time, which draws me out of the story.

 

This is a really interesting question, and something that I hope will become clearer over the course of the book. I'll give the short version here:

Heaven, Earth and the Middle Kingdom (which we'll see later) are all connected by the Void, which is the "space between spaces." The angels have developed technology that allows them to traverse the Void and reach these "alternate planes." In that way, it's sort of like the Bifrost in Thor (though I never thought of it in that way). Time is flexible in the Void (similar to the Warp in Warhammer 40K), but the Void Gates allow the angels to travel along the fastest "currents" to get to where they need. This gets more exposition later, but I thought that for a prologue, explaining the pseudo-science would bog the action down. Do you think it's too confusing?

 

As for the bodies, pitchforks and the rest of it, I was trying to make the characters relatable by making them familiar. In the Bible, there's a passage where an angel appeared as a man with six wings and four heads, which is why the first thing it says is "be not afraid." I figured that having angels like that would be a) very difficult to write and very hard for a reader to empathise with. I'm basically taking the "God made humans in His image" thing and running with it! 

 

Also, I had not thought about the confusion that this would throw up between our knowledge of the Bible or other religious texts and the story. Much like rohyu, I imagined that certain parts of the Bible, like Jesus (or Logos) coming down to Earth and preaching peace did happen (I even throw Doubting Thomas in there!). But otherwise humanity evolved on its own. Therefore, things like WWI, WWII and all the atrocities and wars in history were very much human-driven, with the name of God and the angels thrown in for justification. However, stories like Lucifer's fall were written before they actually happened. I guess one way I could change this would be to have it as an ancient conflict, taking place before the emergence of Christianity. What do you think?

 

In my head, I was basically taking characters and elements of the Bible I could play with and creating my own story out of them. What I've tried to do is give angels their own story; every similar book I could find had humans as the primary characters and angels in a spirit-advisor-type role. Humans are only mentioned once or twice in the book and never seen again. 

 

I got the impression AuthorityHellas was trying for a third person omniscient voice in the story, but I wasn't sure.

 

In the earlier drafts, I was sort of going for a third-person omniscient, but I figured it got too confusing. This POV change is an artefact of that, so I should change it. Thanks for pointing it out, Mand. 

 

Hellas says that no one would believe Lucifer was behind the uprising, but then when he gets to Catherine he says they were right all along about Lucifer planning something.  It seems like they should have seen the connection.

 

Pg6: Lucifer says he asked Michael about Hellas on page 1, but then Hellas says that Michael will never believe that Lucifer is leading a revolt. What did Lucifer say to Michael that wouldn't make Michael suspicious of why Lucifer was asking about one of the most powerful angels in heaven?

 

Pg7: Why was today different?

 

I dont find it plausible that Lucifer would be able to fight his way inside the temple housing the Trinity without anyone noticing. Hellas had to rouse everyone, rather than an alarm going up because angels were dieing. The temple had guards, and there were fallen angels standing out front. Someone would have noticed something.

 

Pg13: Why didn't Lucifer use the skylight to get in and avoid some of the guards?

 

Thanks for the feedback rohyu. 

 

The confusion about Lucifer is a plot point, but perhaps it could have been explained better. Prior to his coup, Lucifer orchestrated a hostage situation imprisoning dignitaries from other nations (who you'll meet later). He made it seem like he was one of the victims to avoid suspicion. Hellas and Catherine discovered the truth when they saved the dignitaries, but because of Lucifer's high standing in Heaven (he's Elohim's favourite), they decided that no one would believe a couple of junior officers in the Host and had to wait until he showed his hand.

TL;DR: they knew he was up to something, but they didn't know what or why and had no way to convince anyone else. Is it too ambiguous?

 

Michael and Lucifer are best buds and have been for thousands of years, so they chat. I should make this clearer (sensing a pattern here?).

 

The whole "today" thing could probably be deleted.

 

Lucifer's advance into the Temple should be cleared up as well. He's a powerful archangel (Elkhar) and he had the element of surprise, since the Host was sleeping outside the city and there was almost no security. I can easily take more time to explain that. 

 

In my head, Lucifer wanted to kill as many politicians before getting to the Trinity, hence his barging through the front door and slaughtering everyone. 

 

Thanks for the amazing feedback, guys! I'm so excited to have new faces reading this stuff. I'll have a lot of revision of this prologue to do, thanks to you. And sorry for the Great-Wall-of-China of text.

 

I can't wait to read your work, as soon as I'm added to the mailing list.

 

:)

Edited December 10, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[AuthorityHellas16]

NB. I did some quick reading on the origins of "Lucifer," being equated with the Devil in biblical verse. The only mention of "Lucifer" in the old testament was in Isaiah14:12, where it is thought that the word actually refers to the morning star (Venus), which was its original use before it was combined as a name for the fallen angel/devil in texts like Dante's Inferno (14th Century CE), John Milton's Paradise Lost and the King James Bible (16th Century CE). Before that Satan was the name of the Devil in Christianity, while in Judaism, Ha'Satan referred to "the Accuser" the one who tests the will of humans for God (most prominently seen in the Book of Job). 

 

All this means that rather than having the battle at WWI, I could change the battle to any bloody event before the 14th Century and have it make sense from a chronological setting. The Massacre of the Latins in 12th Century Constantinople could be a good setting to use. Do you think I'm overthinking it?

 

Source: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

Edited December 10, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[Mandamon]

All this means that rather than having the battle at WWI, I could change the battle to any bloody event before the 14th Century and have it make sense from a chronological setting. The Massacre of the Latins in 12th Century Constantinople could be a good setting to use. Do you think I'm overthinking it?

 

Nope!  I was thinking the same thing while reading.  A lot of what we think of as "The Devil" was influenced by Dante's Inferno, though the concept of fallen angels existed a long time before that.  I think you can have a lot of fun with distinguishing how Lucifer in the story is different from what our culture knows as the Devil.  I have no problem with playing around with how Heaven works in relation to Earth, but when you start giving us scenes that directly contradict common thought and don't give any explanation for it, that's when you get readers popping out of your story and scratching their heads.  I think you can explain away most of the worldbuilding problems I had with well placed (and concise) dialogue and action from the characters.

[Comatose]

As an aside, my understanding of biblical studies is that the whole concept and characterization of the devil is largely extra-biblical, and what is in there is much more vague.  

 

General Impressions:

 

I found it interesting that you chose to emphasize the human rather than the alien in the angels, having them sweat and speak like humans and experience very human emotions and responses.  A neat twist on the archetype, and an interesting contrast with their inhuman appearances (including the jewel-tone eyes).   

 

I'm confused about why Michael was so hard to convince when Hellas went to see him.  After three millenia of peace, shouldn't the idea of war be reason enough to get out of bed?  Do they have many false alarms?  

 

If you want to add a little more variety to the prose, I'd suggest watching where you use dialogue tags, and watch for repetitive sentence structure when you are describing actions the characters perform during the fight sequences.

 

I'm definitely interested in learning more about the magic system, the differences between the different angelic beings, and in what happens to Hellas after he is arrested.  

 

I'm also confused about why Hellas needs Michael to help fight when it seems from the prose that Hellas is more powerful, regardless of rank.  A greater explanation about why Michael is so powerful might help.  

 

All right, here are my line-by-line notes!  I wrote them out as I went along. They are just quick jot notes, so sorry if they come across as harsh, and please ask if they do not make sense.  Also, keep in mind that in the case of line-edits, silences are compliments .   After I was done, I tried to take out any that were dealt with later in the story, but I might have missed some.  I think I got all the page numbers corect.  I hope they help:

 

Page 1:  

"Hellas" - I know the name is likely significant, and you probably don't want to change it, but having a character named 'Hellas' in a story that talks about 'hell' a lot might get confusing for a reader.  At the very least, it might be something to be aware of when you are structuring your sentences.  

 

"His guard turned and continued . . ." - His guard?  Should this be 'His guide'?

 

". . . ovoid opening in the blackness.  Even from the inside of the Void . . ." - This is another word similarity thing: 'ovoid' and 'Void' are a little close together for my taste, but this is mostly a stylistic thing, so there's no need to change it.  

 

"We're here,' his escort said." - I don't think that the dialogue tag is needed.  With only two people, one of whom does not know where they are going, I think it is clear enough who is speaking, and "We're here" by itself will have more impact, I think.  

 

Page 2:

 

"Rather than reply, the guide silently led Hellas to a nearby dirt mound, atop which stood two more humans." - I think that "a nearby dirt mound where two humans stood" might flow better here.  

 

"'Fore,' he shouted, as he swung is club - The 'he' is ambiguous here.  To avoid unnecessary dialogue tags, you could try something like "'Fore!'  The human swung his club."  I think something like this would be more clear.  

 

"I still don't understand why you brought me here?" - This should be a period in my mind.  Asking this as a question doesn't sound right.  

 

Page 3:

 

"He could not mention the voices . . ."  For this paragraph you seem to shift into Lucifer's point of view.  Are you intending to shift here, or to write in the omniscient?  If you are intending to limit your prose to Hellas's POV, this paragraph should be changed.  

 

Page 5:

 

"battle simulations reports" - "battle simulation reports", "battle simulations' reports", or "battle simulation's reports"?  You could also do something like "looking over the reports from the battle simulations".  

 

Page 6: 

 

"only fought once in her three hundred year career.  That said, three thousand years of peace was probably a good problem to have" - If she's fought once within three hundred years, how could there have been 3000 of peace?  is this a typo?  

 

"He dragger" - "He dragged".

 

Page 10:

 

"A brown run" - "A brown rune"?  

 

Page 13: 

 

"motley collection of farmer and craftsmen" - "motley collection of farmers and craftsmen.  

 

"showing his enemy with dirt and dust" - "showering his enemy with dirt and dust".  

[AuthorityHellas16]

Thanks for the feedback, Comatose!

 

After I submitted the chapter and received some feedback from the other fine folks here, I actually went back and reviewed the chapter. I came to similar conclusions after reading it, so you'll be happy to hear that a lot of your comments have already been changed (e.g. Michael having to be forced out of his bed). 

 

I found it interesting that you chose to emphasize the human rather than the alien in the angels, having them sweat and speak like humans and experience very human emotions and responses.  A neat twist on the archetype, and an interesting contrast with their inhuman appearances (including the jewel-tone eyes).     

 

I'm glad you think this; I wanted to make the angels as human as possible to make them more relatable. Therefore, they bleed, feel and react much in the same way that humans do. In an earlier draft I was much more metaphorical with the angels, making them humanoid beings with powers (sort of like the Maiar in Lord of the Rings) and God as an analogue. Eventually, though, I thought it was all getting a bit too obvious and decided to cut out the middle man. I figure this makes them more interesting anyway.

 

I'm definitely interested in learning more about the magic system, the differences between the different angelic beings, and in what happens to Hellas after he is arrested.  

 

I'm glad this is the effect of that cliffhanger; I structured it deliberately so that's how it would feel.

I should also give credit to Brandon Sanderson that there even is a magic system. Before I read his Mistborn books and learned about his three laws of magic, Forging was just splattered in without any explanation. But it's so much more satisfying to work within the limits of a rigid system. I'd encourage anyone inventing a magic system to ensure it has checks, balances and rules. 

 

I'm also confused about why Hellas needs Michael to help fight when it seems from the prose that Hellas is more powerful, regardless of rank.  A greater explanation about why Michael is so powerful might help.  

 

This is probably the biggest change I'll have to make. Hellas is meant to be incredibly powerful even though he's a junior enlisted man in the Host (there's a reason for that), but Michael is meant to be the better fighter. I'll need to emphasise that better.

 

Thanks for going through the chapter with a fine tooth comb. I always miss things that don't make sense (the curse of the writer, really). 

 

Page 1:  

"Hellas" - I know the name is likely significant, and you probably don't want to change it, but having a character named 'Hellas' in a story that talks about 'hell' a lot might get confusing for a reader.  At the very least, it might be something to be aware of when you are structuring your sentences.  

 

 

This is certainly something I've never thought about so thanks for pointing it out. I can definitely be more careful (and I think I have later on) with the sentence structure. I guess one saving grace is that "Hell" is not used as a formal name for a place; the equivalent domain of evil is called "World's End." The evil chaotic-evil foot soldiers are called "hellspawn," but maybe that's an acceptable enough difference so it's not confusing. 

 

And yes, the name is important. You may notice that "Hellas" is a bit of a weird name when contrasted with names like "Michael," or "Catherine." This is a plot point

 

Page 3:

 

"He could not mention the voices . . ."  For this paragraph you seem to shift into Lucifer's point of view.  Are you intending to shift here, or to write in the omniscient?  If you are intending to limit your prose to Hellas's POV, this paragraph should be changed.  

 

This was an artefact when I was writing more third-person omniscient. It's since been changed to align with Hellas' POV.

 

Thanks again for you're feedback. I hope the rest of the book is as interesting. 

Edited December 11, 2015 by AuthorityHellas16

[Robinski]

A belated welcome to Reading Excuses, great to have you onboard, I hope that my comments are helpful.

 

To sum up, it’s an interesting close to the prologue, and I do find myself wondering what is going on, but as per my detailed comments below, I developed a fairly significant dislike for Hellas in the course of the submission. He is presented as the only competent individual in the story, and everyone else seems to be incompetent or vastly inferior to him. In a way, it seems odd that his fighting so hard to save the Trinity, which he seems to despise.

 

This alone would be enough to set me against him, as he seems to have no flaws, but that’s not quite true, because he behaves in such a superiour way, showing an active disrespect to everyone around him, including the Trinity, that by the end I'm glad to see him arrested. At this point, I have no sympathy for any of the characters, which doesn’t bode well going forward.

 

The submission is certainly easy to read, I enjoy your style and the majority of my comments are about content and not construction. I found the magic interesting, but was curious that Michael didn’t seem to have any.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. I'm hoping there are characters coming up which I kind find sympathy with, and/or that Hellas is laid very low and experiences dire straits so that he can learn some life lessons about how to treat people, and how to value others.

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

The POV seems to drift between Hellas and Lucifer, which is a bit distracting.

 

“a constant stream of profanities streaming from his lips” – Subverting our expectations of the denizens of heaven and junior angels in particular is reasonable, but my first impression of Hellas was as an upright and principled individual, so this felt a bit off to me, for some reason.

 

“Unfortunately, she could also ask herself that” – ‘ask that of herself’, I think.

 

I'm a bit surprised that no other kind of alarm has been raised, making Catherine aware of the attack. Is this not one of the things that the Steel Hawks are maintained for? I'm also surprised at the notion that the Companies would not already be aware of the attacks, and be retaliating.

 

I don’t care for Hellas’ tone towards his superiour. Obviously, any respect he had for Michael has long since dissipated. I suppose I can put it down to familiarity breeding contempt, but it seriously diminishes Michael as a character (I felt) at the point of his introduction.

 

“The big, burly man picked up his weapon and sprinted towards them. Clearly, he did not recognise their faces, otherwise he would have run” – but he’s sprinting. Something seems off here.

 

At first, I did not get that the men guarding the building were fallen angels. Also, they seem rather dense and ineffectual, for example why do they attack one at a time (it seems)? Sometimes, there’s a tendency to make the enemy inferior to the protagonist (I'm sure I’ve done it myself), perhaps because it allows and even justifies them being dispatched quickly, but cannon-fodder are people too!

 

“For any other mage – or Forger, as they were known in Heaven – a display such as that should have been incredibly difficult at this time of night. But Hellas was just getting started.” – This is the second time (I think), that you’ve used this sidebar format to explain something. I find it rather disjointed, and I'm not sure it’s necessary. If you said ‘For any other Forger, such a display should have been’...etc. it allows the reader to make the connection, which I think is more satisfying – show don’t tell and all that.

 

If the temple is Lucifer’s objective, why are there only five guards at the door? My impression was he had hundreds of followers to cause the level of devastation described earlier, where are they all?

 

“Now hurry up. We’ve wasted enough time” – Yes, I don’t like Hellas. I feel he’s superiour and dismissive of others. I find it hard to believe that Michael would stomach the boy(?)’s condescending tone for hundreds of years.

 

‘Are they all right?’ – alright

 

“corrupted angels stood behind him, carrying sledgehammers and pitchforks” – I'm mystified as to why they are armed like peasants.

 

In the presence of the Trinity, the conversation between Lucifer and Hellas seems strange. It seems to take place purely because Hellas is the protagonist. Are the Trinity just waiting patiently to be noticed once the interlopers have concluded their tete-a-tete?

 

“The alternative was that the Host was losing the battle on the streets, and losing it badly” – There’s been no real sense of any battle or much in the way of scale. All we’ve seen is five guards on the door and a dozen fallen inside – I don’t feel there’s a massive engagement going on.

 

“‘I trust you can find a place to hide?’ he asked. ‘You seem to be pretty good at that.’” - !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we supposed to believe that this is the being who created the world in seven days, the omnipotent, the almighty? I have trouble swallowing that He would not even speak in this situation, not react at all and be ordered from His throne room by a servant.

 

“when thousands of Fallen angels and demons had marched on the Pearly Gates” – per my earlier comment, where were they all in Hellas’ dreamed account of the attack?

 

“He had been the one to beat him back” – all on his own? I find that hard to believe. Then again, any associates of his have so far been painted as incompetent, so I imagine he would have to do it all on his own.

[Robinski]

Comments on the comments:

 

I had no problem with the time shift. I took the WWI scene as a a kind of Ghost-of-Chrismas-Past deal.

 

I wondered about the Trinity being apathetic. Putting that together with Mandamon's comment about prologue vs. Chapter 1, which I agree with, maybe a prologue demonstrating the apathy of the Trinity would be worth considering.

 

And a P.S. from earlier. Sorry if my comments are a bit harsh, I called it like I saw it - which is the only thing to do, I believe, and I expect no less from peeps critiquing my stuff  :-)

[AuthorityHellas16]

Thanks for the feedback and the welcome, Robinski. Don't worry about being "harsh" with your comments; I love getting any and all feedback. Happily, I think I've fixed a lot of the problems you pointed out, though you've raised some useful (and helpful) points. 

 

To sum up, it’s an interesting close to the prologue, and I do find myself wondering what is going on, but as per my detailed comments below, I developed a fairly significant dislike for Hellas in the course of the submission. He is presented as the only competent individual in the story, and everyone else seems to be incompetent or vastly inferior to him. In a way, it seems odd that his fighting so hard to save the Trinity, which he seems to despise.

 

This alone would be enough to set me against him, as he seems to have no flaws, but that’s not quite true, because he behaves in such a superiour way, showing an active disrespect to everyone around him, including the Trinity, that by the end I'm glad to see him arrested. At this point, I have no sympathy for any of the characters, which doesn’t bode well going forward.

 

...

 

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. I'm hoping there are characters coming up which I kind find sympathy with, and/or that Hellas is laid very low and experiences dire straits so that he can learn some life lessons about how to treat people, and how to value others.

 

...

 

I don’t care for Hellas’ tone towards his superiour. Obviously, any respect he had for Michael has long since dissipated. I suppose I can put it down to familiarity breeding contempt, but it seriously diminishes Michael as a character (I felt) at the point of his introduction.

 

...

 

“Now hurry up. We’ve wasted enough time” – Yes, I don’t like Hellas. I feel he’s superiour and dismissive of others. I find it hard to believe that Michael would stomach the boy(?)’s condescending tone for hundreds of years.

 

...

 

“‘I trust you can find a place to hide?’ he asked. ‘You seem to be pretty good at that.’” - !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we supposed to believe that this is the being who created the world in seven days, the omnipotent, the almighty? I have trouble swallowing that He would not even speak in this situation, not react at all and be ordered from His throne room by a servant.

 

 

This is a really interesting issue and not one that I'd ever considered, so thanks for bringing it up. I'll try and explain my rationale for some of these points. Hopefully a lot of this will become clearer as the book goes on; I really wanted the prologue to be the part that makes the reader interested, and fill in some of the gaps later.

 

Hellas' insubordinate traits are something that are part of his character in the present (12 years after the prologue) and I really should tone it down a bit in the prologue, make him a little more respectful to those around him. In particular, the timeline of the story (which was quite murky when I wrote this) states that he doesn't hate the Trinity until only a couple of years before the main storyline, after ten years of war. This is something I should change, so thanks for pointing it out.

 

As for his relationship with Michael, the two have been close friends for most of Hellas' life. Hellas is a hyper-competent soldier who has been waylaid by a jealous and ineffective commander (something I think Lucifer mentioned, but I'm not sure if I cut it from the submitted version). My rationale for having Hellas be very familiar with someone as highly ranked as Michael was that a) they know each other so well that it would feel odd to have Hellas stand on ceremony and given that the city is burning around them, I felt that things like protocol would kind of fall by the wayside until they got a handle on the situation. I'm sure there are ways to write this better, so thanks for bringing it up.

 

Hellas' OP-ness has been brought up a number of times, and it's clear that it was something I needed to fix. I made Michael play more of a role in saving the Trinity (he kills Lucifer's bodyguards single-handedly), and explained why Michael uses his sword; he can use Forging but he prefers to fight with his sword. 

 

And yes, to say that Hellas' life after the prologue goes to hell in a handbasket would be a gross understatement. Him learning to trust and respect others and not having to control everything is a part of his character development. 

 

The POV seems to drift between Hellas and Lucifer, which is a bit distracting.

 

I'm a bit surprised that no other kind of alarm has been raised, making Catherine aware of the attack. Is this not one of the things that the Steel Hawks are maintained for? I'm also surprised at the notion that the Companies would not already be aware of the attacks, and be retaliating.

 

 

Both of these things have been fixed, but I feel I should run the solutions by you:

 

- I changed the Lucifer-takes-Hellas-to-Earth episode to be from Lucifer's POV. That way, I could show, rather than tell, the voice of the Big Bad that directs his actions, and provide an insight into his underlying motivations. 

- Heaven in this story has existed for over five hundred years, and has never had a major uprising. I assumed that after that period of time, the army would be more ceremonial than actually effective, and there would be no countermeasures to guard against a disturbance. A similar thing happened to the Samurai caste in Edo-period Japan, as well as to the fictional alien Ildirans in Kevin J. Anderson's Saga of the Seven Suns. I've highlighted how woefully unprepared the Host are in the updated version, so hopefully this makes more sense. 

 

“For any other mage – or Forger, as they were known in Heaven – a display such as that should have been incredibly difficult at this time of night. But Hellas was just getting started.” – This is the second time (I think), that you’ve used this sidebar format to explain something. I find it rather disjointed, and I'm not sure it’s necessary. If you said ‘For any other Forger, such a display should have been’...etc. it allows the reader to make the connection, which I think is more satisfying – show don’t tell and all that.

 

 

Thanks for the comment; this is something that I do quite a lot, so I should re-examine when and where I use the sidebars. 

 

In the presence of the Trinity, the conversation between Lucifer and Hellas seems strange. It seems to take place purely because Hellas is the protagonist. Are the Trinity just waiting patiently to be noticed once the interlopers have concluded their tete-a-tete?

 

“The alternative was that the Host was losing the battle on the streets, and losing it badly” – There’s been no real sense of any battle or much in the way of scale. All we’ve seen is five guards on the door and a dozen fallen inside – I don’t feel there’s a massive engagement going on.

 

“when thousands of Fallen angels and demons had marched on the Pearly Gates” – per my earlier comment, where were they all in Hellas’ dreamed account of the attack?

 

“He had been the one to beat him back” – all on his own? I find that hard to believe. Then again, any associates of his have so far been painted as incompetent, so I imagine he would have to do it all on his own.

 

 

These are all really good points that I had never even considered! I can probably explain them all with a bit of dialogue or extra wording here or there. In summary:

 

1) This could be changed easily so that the Trinity hides, allowing Lucifer to talk to Hellas and Michael.

2) I should provide a glimpse of the Host's counterstroke against the rebels when Michael and Hellas travel to the Temple

3) Easily changed to "led the defence," as he was one of the more important commanders in the early days of the war.

 

Thanks again for the comments. I'm submitting the first two chapters this week, so I hope that you enjoy where the adventure goes

:) 

[Robinski]

What a comprehensive response! All sounds reasonable to me. When it comes to characters being unlikable for the purposes of going through a transition it's a difficult line to tread, push them too far and the reader might put down the book before they get to arc into the positive. In my opinion, softening that aspect seems like the right thing to do.

 

Looking forward to reading more  :-)

[rdpulfer]

Hey AuthorityHellas!

 

Sorry for the delay in commenting on your work. Welcome to the group! Thanks for jumping right in!

 

I am religious (Presbyterian in fact) but I'm not easily offended. It shouldn't be a problem when reading this word. I've also struggled with religious vs. anti-religious in Scholomancer as well.

 

- It took me a while to get the setting down in the first page, as least we jumped from the Void to Earth so quickly.

 

- Lucifer seems way too easily caught off-guard on the third page. His jaw falling open seems almost comical . . . which makes me feel like he's not that competent. Maybe he needs another gesture - like his eyes narrowing instead. 

 

- At first I thought Hellas' body bursting into smoke was what happened when an angel died . . . I didn't know it was an escape mechanism. It confused until I read a few lines further.

 

- The scene shift into Catherine's office was also jarring. At first I wasn't sure it was heaven - I thought it might be earth, since Catherine mentioned running some sort of battle simulation. Also, the tone shift is frustrating, since Hellas goes from being in mortal danger to reluctantly agreeing to talk to Michael.

 

- I do like when the action picks up . . . as well as where the last paragraph leaves things for Hellas. 

 

- I was also confused by the opening battle sequence, since I would have figured Lucifer's fall - mentioned only briefly in a few passages of the Bible - still would have predated World War I.

[AuthorityHellas16]

Thanks for the feedback, rdpulfer! Happily, many of the mistakes or improvements you pointed out have been corrected, but thanks for reinforcing the need to change them  

 

I am religious (Presbyterian in fact) but I'm not easily offended. It shouldn't be a problem when reading this word. I've also struggled with religious vs. anti-religious in Scholomancer as well.

 

I'm glad you thought this. I'm still concerned that some people will be offended when I had the main characters call Elohim an incompetent idiot (which will come more to the fore later). But hopefully as you keep reading you'll stay in your current, non-offended state

 

It took me a while to get the setting down in the first page, as least we jumped from the Void to Earth so quickly.

 

To my mind this is unavoidable, as I couldn't spend too much time in the Void (because that'd be pointless), but I had to justify how these otherworldly beings could transport themselves to Earth. Hopefully that little detail will be cleared up as the book goes on.

 

​Lucifer seems way too easily caught off-guard on the third page. His jaw falling open seems almost comical . . . which makes me feel like he's not that competent. Maybe he needs another gesture - like his eyes narrowing instead. 

Thanks for pointing this out. I never really was happy with Lucifer's jaw dropping (I think there may be too much of that here), and I'll definitely take note of the "eye narrowing" for future reference. I fixed this by rewriting the whole starting segment from Lucifer's perspective, having the Big Bad (Abaddon) whisper thoughts into his mind. I felt that made it flow better. As a side effect, it also made me get rid of Lucifer's gobsmacked expression. 

 

At first I thought Hellas' body bursting into smoke was what happened when an angel died . . . I didn't know it was an escape mechanism. It confused until I read a few lines further.

Again, I wasn't happy with this either, because even to me it was a little confusing. I've changed it so that Hellas uses a rune to drain Lucifer's energy, incapacitating him and allowing Hellas to escape back into the Void. I think that's a clearer way of doing it, while also giving an early introduction to the magic system.

 

The scene shift into Catherine's office was also jarring. At first I wasn't sure it was heaven - I thought it might be earth, since Catherine mentioned running some sort of battle simulation. Also, the tone shift is frustrating, since Hellas goes from being in mortal danger to reluctantly agreeing to talk to Michael.

I have completely reworked this section, so that Michael isn't so obstructive. I've also made the transition a lot more explicit so it's clearer. Thanks

 

I was also confused by the opening battle sequence, since I would have figured Lucifer's fall - mentioned only briefly in a few passages of the Bible - still would have predated World War I.

I've gotten around this issue by changing the WWI sequence to the Massacre of the Latins, the mob-instigated murder of tens of thousands of Catholics by Orthodox civilians in 12th Century Constantinople. This pre-dates Dante's Inferno, as well as John Milton's Paradise Lost, which is where much of the Satan = Lucifer idea came from, so it makes chronological sense. 

 

I do like when the action picks up . . . as well as where the last paragraph leaves things for Hellas. 

Thanks . I hope you'll keep enjoying it

[rdpulfer]

The issue you might run into, chronology-wise, is that Lucifer's fall in mentioned way back in the Book of Isaiah, which was written between 740 and 680 BC, vastly predating Dante and Milton. One possible solution is that this realm exists in a separate dimension, perhaps where time moves non-linearly to the mortal coil. It might complicate your world a bit, but it would let you set the Fall of the Angel during any historical period you'd like. 

[Shrike76]

I'm late to the party, being WAY behind on submissions, so I'm finding that a lot of the thoughts I had on the prologue have been extensively covered above, but I'll note a few briefly anyways.

 

Some things were both jarring, and at the same time intriguing because they raised questions:

 - The attacking fallen angels being referred to as farmers and craftsmen. I hadn't expected that there would be a need for this sort of trade. All of it makes this city of angels seem like it works very much like a city on Earth which isn't what I would have expected. I'm curious to know what the social structure is like in this version you're portraying, as in what role different angels play and what jobs they have, rather than just being bland angels. So, jarring at first, but as I think about it I kind of want to know more, and I'm thinking a little more of that information up front could be useful.

 - With regards to their roles, I had some issues with their personalities as well. I wasn't expecting strong personalities, but many of them have them, and they act just like people, which makes me wonder what it is that makes them angels, besides the magic and the physical differences. I wonder what their hierarchy is like and who's allowed to talk back to who (the way Hellas is kind of rude to Michael, for instance).

 - I don't know if you were aiming for 3rd person omniscient, but the change of POV between Hellas and lucifer threw me out of the story a little.

 - The interaction between Lucifer and Hellas felt off to me. Hellas seems to know a lot he isn't supposed to, as far as Lucifer is concerned, and it feels a little too convenient. And I found Lucifer's surprised reaction a little excessive.

 

Overall I did find it enjoyable, and well-written. I will read on.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Shrike76

[Asmodemon]

An alternate reality take on angels and the war in heaven, sounds good to me. I’m looking forward to see where you’re taking this. Coming at this late most of the grass has already been cut before me, so I don’t have much to add to what’s already been said.

 

I do have a couple things that I noticed were odd.

 

Take back the city: Catherine speaks of needing reinforcements to take back the city, but at that point the city isn’t taken yet. If it was, she’d know about it. There are some buildings on fire, but fire doesn’t equate an invading army.

 

Friend: Michael thinks of Hellas as his friend, but the conversation between them wasn’t one of friends, more like adversaries.  

 

Improvised weapons: Why are the traitors using improvised weapons? Aren’t they Lucifer’s personal forces that he took from his Inquisition? Why don’t they have ‘real’ weapons?

 

Later you refer to them as farmers and craftsmen, who took Lucifer’s side. That does challenge my image of the angels of Heaven, since I don’t picture them as farmers, but I’ll roll with it since it’s an alternate reality.

 

I do think it’s odd that Lucifer hasn’t taken actual soldiers or fighters or demons with him to the temple. The way it reads now is that he has the advantage of surprise, but given time a trained force would mop the floor with an army of farmers and craftsmen.

 

Defeat: Lucifer’s defeat felt too easy to me. Two angels beat some farmers and Lucifer is ready to call it quits. At the end of the prologue Hellas says that the first real attack came a month after the coup. If Lucifer had waited a month to get those forces before springing his surprise attack he would have most likely won. Instead he used farmers and got beaten. Either he’s not as smart as he thinks he is, or he never intended to win…

 

Apathy: The Trinity should be God in this universe too right? As in very, very, powerful? As such I find it odd that they do nothing to defend themselves. There’s a difference in being apathetic to other creatures, especially short-lived mortals, and losing your own life.