Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

RippleGylf · December 14, 2015

This makes the game seem so much more bland! Mailliw this was a mistake. Half the game is gone now and the most appetizing part of this game has just disintegrated.

This made me think of how SE is like cake, as it is filled with lies.

Arrae · December 14, 2015

As opposed to the diagrammists being open and honest with their alignments and intentions?

This strikes me as being intentionally 'good-sounding' advice, as opposed to well intentioned advice.

This, coupled with your disregard for the risk of you getting killed, leads me to vote STINK

Orlok, you seem very eager to kill someone for giving new players advice about PM safety. Keep in mind that new players don't know who can be trusted, who can't, who they should reveal their role to (on the first day, absolutely no one).

I'd also like an explanation from Hellscythe about his vote on STINK. Why do you think he might be a Diagrammist?

EDIT: Do we really know if Mailliw's list is accurate? I know the faction than I'm supposedly in isn't the same as the one I'm actually in, and the other people I know are in my faction are also listed in the incorrect faction.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Arraenae

Aonar · December 14, 2015

Hi everybody. Just a quick post here to let people know that I am (somewhat) paying attention. I've spent all day so far procrastinating an essay, and attempting to calm down a friend (she has to go for an electromyograph tomorrow, and she's deathly afraid of needles ). So I haven't had a lot of time to gather my thoughts. Stink's role reveal strikes me as a little weird, and likely counter productive in the long run, but at the same time, I can't see a particularly logical reason for a Diagrammist to do that. So I'll probably wait until tomorrow to vote on things.

As for Maill... I don't know what his game is yet. And as such, I will currently refrain from commenting. I would however, caution for players to take a very close read of his list before trusting him.*

Haelbarde · December 14, 2015

I have some stuff to say about Mailliws lists but don't have time to type it up now.

Creccio · December 14, 2015

On Stink reveal: I think he is trying to come out honest and maybe gain the trust of people? Maybe he is trying to see how we react and see who he chooses to have a PM with.

On Mail's List... I think everyone can see if they are on their right side and see how much truth the list has. If you do believe in it you can take it as reference, if not, we can speculate about why he did what he did... As of now it seems some people have found problems with it, so i don't know how truthful it is

Amanuensis · December 14, 2015

C1 Post Summaries, 1 - 50

Note: GMs not included

Hellscythe: Asks a question (Note: that can be answered easily by reviewing the original thread).
Creccio: Wishes everyone good luck, references Hunger Games.
Stink: Answers Hellscythe’s question, adds that each cycle ends with lynch and elim kill.
Clanky: Votes for Paranoid King. Proposes plan to designate which faction scans which kill to prevent scan repetition. Asks for ideas on how to reveal information in public without putting Scholars in danger.
Creccio: Suggests color coded votes for who the town wants the Scholars scan.
Stink: Expresses that our primary focus needs to be killing the Diagrammists. Advises Radiants reveal to no one. Mentions the possibility of Diamgrammists being able to start PMs, in which case beware being manipulated in them. Insists that activity is a must but we should not target inactives in case they turn out to be a Radiant (note: this contradicts his statement about prioritizing the Eliminators)
Kynedath: Asks if Commanders are able to PM Captains; is immediately answered by Kas.
Elbereth: Responding to Clanky, says we should not assume that there are only 2 Scholars to begin with. While possible it is best to not make assumptions. Presents a couple ideas for the Scholars, including 1: Runner acts as intermediary for Scholar, and 2: Scholars reveal themselves publicly to garner protection. Asks GMs questions regarding redirecting Scholar-scans. Agrees that Clanky’s idea is sound, barring if an Elsecaller transforms a dead player set to be scanned into another role/alignment. Asks if write ups designate if a kill is Diagrammist or Cook and if someone is promoted if a player in their command chain is killed. Recommends that Runners contact their Superior to receive the name of their superior and continuously climb the chain until they reach their faction’s leader, to be directed to a player they want to learn more about. Asks other weigh in on this idea due to the Diagrammists. Advises that because there is a role that can look into PMs that players practice identity safety by keeping their names out of the conversations, nor reference their faction. Says in blue text that she will be playing this game differently than her last for reasons she doesn’t want to yet explain and that she will be relatively inactive for the rest of the cycle due to exams.
Stink: Reveals that he is a Son of Honor Runner.
Arraenae: RP post regarding write-up and Clanky’s vote against Paranoid King. Votes for Clanky asking for an explanation.
Clanky: Responds to Elbereth, explaining that he expects more than one Scholar per faction due to the criticality of their role and the difficulties associated with them revealing their information. Clarifies that Thaidakar and Restares only know players in their faction, not their alignments, and for this reason it isn’t necessary for Runners to contact them. Realizes that they don’t really need to check the Diagrammist kill with Scholars because they are essentially confirmed good. Edits to inform Arraenae that he voted for Paranoid King strictly for roleplay, as at the time he had no information to base suspicions off of.
Stink: Adds that he intends to reveal all information he learns in thread unless asked by a person it is specifically relevant to not to.
Kynedath: Reminds everyone that they are a new player, then expresses suspicion of Elbereth’s blue text. Says he doesn’t want to get on her bad side, just bring attention to it, then asks for an explanation.
Mailliw: Commends Stink for his previous post. Mentions that he has tried this in the past but it has always gotten him killed. Claims if he was a faction leader he would have told the entire thread who was under his charge.
Elbereth: Responds to Stinks reveal, saying she meant to only hear people’s opinions of a Runner revealing themselves, not encourage one to do that. Responds to Clanky’s post about Faction Leaders not knowing alignments, and attributes her previous thoughts as she was looking at the MR as a Faction Game, not an Elimination. Thinks it would be wise to occasionally scan Diagrammist Kills to see what role they lost.
Stink: Ensures that he already planned to reveal his role and faction placement, comments on the convenient timing.
Elbereth: Responds to Kynedath in blue text that the reason her playstyle this game is different is relevant to an ongoing Elimination game and therefore has to wait until it’s over. Responds to Mail’s idea of Faction Leaders revealing their members, saying she supports it but that it’s up to them to decide. Presents counterpoint that this would paint targets on the backs of the Faction Leaders, but that it would make it easier for Cooks to kill their opposing team.
Hellscythe: Votes for Stink with no explanation.
Elbereth: Votes for Hellscythe, asking for him to explain his vote. Almost wants to think he is a Ghostblood trying to pursue his secondary win condition rather than find Diagrammists.
Stink: Two words in response to Hellscythe’s vote.
Hellscythe: Answers Elbereth’s question with a question.
Stink: Passive aggressive response to Hellscythe.
Orlok: Votes for Stink, explaining that he thinks he is providing advice that sounds good without good intentions, which in addition to not fearing death for revealing his role and his strategy, is suspicious.
Stink: Responds to Orlok, says he was providing advice for new players rather than just shouting to practice PM safety. Also states that he could be killed but that his death would be interesting (assuming he means glean useful information).
Hellscythe: Asks if Surgeon protects from lynch.
phattmer: Votes for Hellscythe for his lack of explanation and because he thinks lynching a Runner is a bad idea.
Elbereth: Responds to Hellscythe’s question, saying that she believes the Surgeon protects from Lynch like it’s Surgebinder equivalent.
Clanky: Responds to Elbereth’s guess at the Surgeon, assuming that it does not protect from the Lynch because it does not exclusively mention it like the Edgedancer.
Elbereth: Admits Clanky’s theory might be right but wants clarification from the GMs due to the fact that every other Surgebinder ability has a non-Radiant equivalent. (Is soon told by Wilson that she is right and Surgeon protects from Lynches).
Elbereth: Thanks Wilson for responding so quickly. Says she is about to leave for awhile but first asks why Hellscythe voted for Stink, and that she agrees that lynching a claimed Runner right off the bat is a bad idea no matter their alignment as PMs benefit the good more than the evil.
Mailliw: Votes for Hellscythe for no other reason than “he likes PMs.”
Orlok: Asks that Stink be analyzed whether or not he is evil regardless of his role claim, as the two facts are a separate issue.
Hellscythe: Asks that in case there is an evil Surgeon that the Cook also target the lynch target to ensure their death in order to ensure one of theirs isn’t saved.
Ripple: Quotes Orlok, Stink and Mail. Doesn’t think killing Hellscythe or Stink is a good idea, as the former has previously proven themselves to be good at finding evils and the latter’s “acceptance of death seems reasonable.”
Araris: Informs the thread that he is paying attention but has no thoughts to express yet; in black text claims he is having a hard time focusing and will try again later.
Kipper: Says he is here but won’t be voting for anyone, referencing to the last time he did (likely referring to the Shallan Debacle of LG15). Claims that he plans to change up his play style by producing more “high quality posts,” but that it’ll likely take a few cycles as he is currently busy with real life (mentioned in black text). Reminds people to practice PM safety (strikes through) only to replace it with PM him.
Mailliw: Retracts vote from Hellscythe, claiming to see what he’s doing and that he will help. Then reveals himself as Thaidakar claiming that he was waiting for Restares to come out before doing so himself. Reveals a list of both faction’s rosters, scrambled so that positions cannot be determined. Tacks on at the end that we now that we don’t have to worry about faction reveals we can focus on killing the Diagrammists.
Tony: Quotes Mailliw, expressing confusion. Edits in that he wanted to talk about Hellscythe but after Mail’s reveal he won’t place a vote quite yet.
Hael: Responds to Mail’s reveal, rhetorically asking why he’s not surprised. Mentions that he was curious to see how a faction game would go without players knowing all their teammates.
Ripple: Tells Mail to double check his roster, claiming she is a Son of Honor on his list but actually a Ghostblood.
Mailliw: Claims he flipped her and Arraenae for having similar RP names.
Feligon: Suggests other Runners contact Stink in order to establish a network, and that he needs more time to think and thus will post later.
Kynedath: Expresses that Mail has ruined half of / the “most appetizing” aspect of the game.
Mace: Affirms Kynedath’s previous post about Mail spoiling an important part of the game.
Ripple: Quotes Kynedath, referencing the game Portal.
Arraenae: Retracts their vote on Clanky in favor of Orlok for being “eager to kill someone for giving new players advice about PM safety.” Reminds him that new players have no prior experience to go off of and tips like this are extremely useful for them, obvious to recurring players or not. Also asks for Hellscythe’s reasoning for thinking that Stink is a Diagrammist. Edits in that both her faction and the faction of those she knows the faction of are wrong on Mailliw’s list.
Aonar: Quickly posts that he is paying some attention but (in black text) that he hasn’t had a lot of time to gather his thoughts. Expresses that Stink’s reveal is both odd and counter productive for the long term, but because he can’t see a logical reason that a Diagrammist would make that move he will refrain from voting just yet. Also adds that he doesn’t know what Mail’s trying to accomplish and for that reason will keep quiet about it.
Hael: Says that he has something to say in regards to Mail’s reveal but that it’ll have to wait until later.
Creccio: Comments on Stink and Mail’s reveals. Thinks Stink is trying to gain player’s trust and observe our reactions, as well as figure out an efficient target for his ability to create PMs. On Mail, leaves it up to the individual to believe it’s validity, but if it’s proven false we need to discuss what his intentions may have been.
Adavantos: I shouldn’t have to summarize my own post within this summary. However I will add to this post that I will try to keep this trend up so long as I’m alive. That being said, I am about to go to get off work and go to sleep, so when I awaken I will have to catch up on everything I miss which will likely take some time. Once I finish that I will begin weighing in on who I believe is suspicious so far.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Adavantos

**Alvron** · December 14, 2015

I think that any other runners need to get to work and probably contact Stink asap, so we can have a wider network. I'll need a bit more time to think, I'll post more later.

That might not so good an idea. It's possible that Stink is a Diagrammist and is hoping that the runners/Bondsmith contact him so they can shut down PMs at will.

EDIT: Do we really know if Mailliw's list is accurate? I know the faction than I'm supposedly in isn't the same as the one I'm actually in, and the other people I know are in my faction are also listed in the incorrect faction.

I too know of at least one person that Maill has in the wrong list, which means that there is a minimum of six players that Maill swapped. As such I don't believe that Maill is Thaidakar. Also his claim that he was waiting for Restares to post strikes me as false as Maill didn't wait even twelve hours before posting his list. Given the timezones of some players waiting at least 24 hours would've been better.

Clanky · December 14, 2015

I am also wrongly placed on that list. If I were a betting man I would say that Mailliw is a Commander so knew half of the players in his faction and guessed for the rest.

**Alvron** · December 14, 2015

I am also wrongly placed on that list. If I were a betting man I would say that Mailliw is a Commander so knew half of the players in his faction and guessed for the rest.

I'm more thinking that Maill is being his trollish self and purposely mixing the lists up or that he's a Diagrammist fishing for information.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Alvron

Clanky · December 14, 2015

I'm more thinking that Maill is being his trollish self and purposely mixing the lists up or that he's a Diagrammist fishing for information.

What use does a diagrammist have for knowing peoples faction?

Haelbarde · December 14, 2015

Alright, to type up my thoughts. I agree with for his reasons. My thoughts are that Mailliw is a Commander. It'd mean he'd know a reasonable number of his faction and be able to make a guess at the rest of his side, and thus have a reasonable chance at guessing a large portion of the other faction correctly. The purpose behind posting those lists is it lets him phish for peoples alignments by how people react. If people post and either don't mention the list or don't contest the list, then there is a fair chance that he correctly guessed their faction. If they contest it, then he got it wrong, and they are on the other side. We've already had half a dozen respond and so we have an idea of their alignment. Take Alvs response for example. We can suppose that Alv is indeed a Son of Honour, that he is a regular, rather than a captain, commander, etc, and that his captain is incorrectly listed, and isn't of the aforementioned mistakes.

Now, what to do about it all. I don't find this to be suspicious on Mailliws part. In fact, this was exactly what I expected - I said as much in the LG15 dead doc. I also don't think we have enough information to determine which faction Mailliw is. If I were him, I would have claimed to be from the opposite faction. But I'm not sure if that's what he's done... He might also have put some of the players he knew for certain on the wrong side in a similar manner. He could have also entirely randomized the lists, but I do think that's less likely.

So I think ultimately, I'm happy he did this, as it's increased the amount of information on the matter, without putting all of it out there.

Edit: Typing on mobile is slow... A diagrammist could find use for knowing the factions in playing the factions against each other.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Haelbarde

**Zas678** · December 14, 2015

Some numbers!

So running the numbers, assuming that each leader needs to have 2 subordinates, here are the basic numbers per team:

Minimum:

Leader: 1

Commander: 2

Captain: 4

Regular: 8

15 people per team, or 30 total.

Now if we assume that the extra players went to the bottom:

Leader: 1

Commander: 2

Captain: 5

Regular: 10

18 people per team, or 36 total.

Now since this is a complicated role game, I bet (though those with more experience can tell me) that about a quarter of the players are Diagramists (6 players).

This gives the following odds for Diagramists being in each role:

Leader: 5.6%

Commander: 11.1%

Captain: 27.8%

Regular: 55.6%

So that basically means, if we're lucky, they're all Captains and Regulars. If we're not lucky, we'll have a commander or a faction leader in there. I hope not- a Diagramist Leader will kill and manipulate the game pretty quickly. I think we have to assume that they're not, if only for the fact of being able to use our factions at all.

As far as activity goes, I will be not posting much this first week due to finals, but after that I should be posting quite a bit more. I only have to live through 4 cycles!

EDIT- As far as Mail's list goes, it seems clear that it's not entirely accurate. Even if he is a commander and wanted more information out there, why would he do it in that way? That's information mixed with misinformation. The only person that benefits is Mail- he is the only one who would be able to accurately judge what is or isn't information. So if he is a commander or leader, he's a self serving one. If he's a captain or regular, than he's looking for our responses to his randomly generated list.

Either way, a good way to kick off a game!

**Alvron** · December 14, 2015

What use does a diagrammist have for knowing peoples faction?

He learns who the leaders are of the opposing factions should they post their lists. They can then take out the leadership. It also distracts us from finding the diagrammists. We have moved away from trying to find them despite Maill claiming that he posted it to stop us from faction reveals. Gives him an alibi once we realise what's happened.

Take Alvs response for example. We can suppose that Alv is indeed a Son of Honour, that he is a regular, rather than a captain, commander, etc, and that his captain is incorrectly listed, and isn't of the aforementioned mistakes.

Heh. I purposely didn't say if I was on the wrong list or if it was someone I report to or someone that reports to me. I'm not going to just say which person(s) was on the wrong list. Just that I know of at least one other that was incorrectly listed.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Alvron

Haelbarde · December 14, 2015

Heh. I purposely didn't say if I was on the wrong list or if it was someone I report to or someone that reports to me. I'm not going to just say which person(s) was on the wrong list. Just that I know of at least one other that was incorrectly listed.

Well sure. All are options. It's up to us to decide how much thought you put into it.

Also, I'd say commanders would have enough info to guess the full lists, if a commander has half the faction list and Mailliw is a commander.

**Alvron** · December 14, 2015

Well sure. All are options. It's up to us to decide how much thought you put into it.

Also, I'd say commanders would have enough info to guess the full lists, if a commander has half the faction list and Mailliw is a commander.

I rarely post without giving it at least ten minutes of thought.

Commanders only know their Leader and two or three Captains if we go by Zas' equation. They don't know the identity of the Regulars. Or at least that's what I think going by the rules.

Haelbarde · December 14, 2015

I rarely post without giving it at least ten minutes of thought.

Commanders only know their Leader and two or three Captains if we go by Zas' equation. They don't know the identity of the Regulars. Or at least that's what I think going by the rules.

Oh, okay. I haven't had a good look at the rules for how they work yet. I'd assumed that if Restares and Thaidikar knew everything, that the commanders knew everything at each level under their command, I.e. Knowing the regulars under the command of the regulars that they know.

*goes rereads the rules*

Edit: Hmm, the rules don't read that way do they... GMs, reckon you could clarify how the positions work?

Edited December 14, 2015 by Haelbarde

**Alvron** · December 14, 2015

Oh, okay. I haven't had a good look at the rules for how they work yet. I'd assumed that if Restares and Thaidikar knew everything, that the commanders knew everything at each level under their command, I.e. Knowing the regulars under the command of the regulars that they know.

*goes rereads the rules*

I'm basing it on the fact that normally the Regulars report only to their Captains and it's the Captains that go to the Commanders but I could be completely wrong. Or maybe I'm lying to disguise what Rank I have.

Hellscythe · December 14, 2015

The purpose behind posting those lists is it lets him phish for peoples alignments by how people react.

They're catching on to us Mail! I also revealed many factions tyvm! I like credit too!

This gives the following odds for Diagramists being in each role:

Leader: 5.6%

Commander: 11.1%

Captain: 27.8%

Regular: 55.6%

That's only if Wilson did the distribution completely randomly with no influence.

Creccio · December 14, 2015

Oh, okay. I haven't had a good look at the rules for how they work yet. I'd assumed that if Restares and Thaidikar knew everything, that the commanders knew everything at each level under their command, I.e. Knowing the regulars under the command of the regulars that they know.

*goes rereads the rules*

Edit: Hmm, the rules don't read that way do they... GMs, reckon you could clarify how the positions work?

They only know as the rules say "a fraction of your team"

As in... Maybe a captain knows X amounts of regulars and commanders Y amounts of captains...

I'm basing it on the fact that normally the Regulars report only to their Captains and it's the Captains that go to the Commanders but I could be completely wrong. Or maybe I'm lying to disguise what Rank I have.

By report what does that exactly mean? >_> As I know you can only PM if you have been chosen by runners/bondsmith/other pm roles(cant remember them all...)

Now, does anyone have any leads or ways for us to figure out the diagramist? I am drawing a blank in here...

**little wilson** · December 14, 2015

We had to adjust some things while sending out PMs. Thaidakar/Restares and the Commanders weren't actually supposed to know the ranks of those under them, but due to a miscommunication, all the higher-ups learned the identities of just the people reporting to them directly rather than the people under them (as in, Thaidakar/Restares only learned the identites of the Commanders, and not the whole faction, and the Commanders only learned the identities of their leader and the Captains who report to them). So when the rest of the info was given as per the rules, it would've been easy enough for the Commanders to work out who was which rank, since the only additions were the Regulars. If the Commanders know, the leader should know. Hence, all the higher-ups know the ranks of the people below them, but they do not know who reports to whom.

Sart · December 14, 2015

Edurams was starting to panic. There were too many people here. Any one of them could be part of a secret society. There were secret societies inside of secret societies. Everyone was out to get him. He wasn't safe! He needed... What did he need? He needed facts. He looked over at the man writing down all the discussion. Those facts were wrong! They had to be. After all, when was the last time anyone reported anything right. It was a conspiracy!

"That man! He can't be trusted. Who knows what biases he'll put in those! It's a trap! Agrigar (Adavantos) must be evil!"

Anyways, welcome to all the new players. I'm voting for Adavantos for 2 reasons. One, he's a dangerous player. I want to see how he reacts to a vote being placed on him. Second, I don't like him summarizing posts. It's a lot of effort, but it doesn't accomplish anything. It allows him to be active without contributing to the contribution. In addition, his summaries will be biased to his side, whether intentionally or not. That's why I don't think this is a good idea.

Haelbarde · December 14, 2015

They only know as the rules say "a fraction of your team"

As in... Maybe a captain knows X amounts of regulars and commanders Y amounts of captains...

By report what does that exactly mean? >_> As I know you can only PM if you have been chosen by runners/bondsmith/other pm roles(cant remember them all...)

Now, does anyone have any leads or ways for us to figure out the diagramist? I am drawing a blank in here...

I'm just going to wait for a commander to weigh in on the matter, or for the Gms to clarify it.

Also, I think Alv was talking in general, as how chain of command works, rather than necessarily in this game.

Edit: Oops, ninja'd. And thanks, Wilson.

Re: Diagrammists, I think that's going to be easier once we start to see who they kill, and peoples reactions. So I think we need more discussion and someone to lynch.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Haelbarde

Clanky · December 14, 2015

By report what does that exactly mean? >_> As I know you can only PM if you have been chosen by runners/bondsmith/other pm roles(cant remember them all...)

Now, does anyone have any leads or ways for us to figure out the diagramist? I am drawing a blank in here...

The best way to find the eliminators is to talk. Same in this game as every other game, In this game it is made more important given the severe lack of knowledge. There is almost always someone who asks this every game and the answer is always the same. That person who asks also ends up a bit more suspicious in my eyes.

He learns who the leaders are of the opposing factions should they post their lists. They can then take out the leadership. It also distracts us from finding the diagrammists. We have moved away from trying to find them despite Maill claiming that he posted it to stop us from faction reveals. Gives him an alibi once we realise what's happened.

Honestly I am thinking that people overestimate the power of Thadikar and Restares. If there was PM communication down the line then sure they would be valuable but all they really can do is slightly direct kills to help their teams secondary Win condition. It wouldn't be that devastating for them to die.

Elbereth · December 14, 2015

I would ask that in the case that there is an Diagrammist Surgeon, the Cook kill the lynch.

That way the Digarammist Surgeon can't effectively nullify every lynch we make.

There are several problems with this. First, you're assuming that the Surgeon is going to want to protect the lynched (which, 3 times out of 4, he/she won't). Even if a Diagrammist surgeon does exist, and protects the member about to be lynched, there'll be all the more suspicion cast on that person the next cycle. At that point it might be good to have the Cook kill along with the lynch. Though that does bring up a question for the GMs: Is there double-tapping in this game? That is, does the Surgeon/Progression protect from all attacks, or only one?

Also, this basically makes the Cook useless. Both Cooks, if they don't have the sense to see the problems with this.

Cooks should target whoever they think is suspicious, or alternatively inactives once the game gets a few cycles in.

That's only if Wilson did the distribution completely randomly with no influence.

Technically, the rules did say that Diagrammists would be distributed randomly within each faction. On the other hand, if by chance both the Thaidakar and the Restares turned out to be Diagrammists, I do feel that the GMs would have stepped in and fixed that.

Edurams was starting to panic. There were too many people here. Any one of them could be part of a secret society. There were secret societies inside of secret societies. Everyone was out to get him. He wasn't safe! He needed... What did he need? He needed facts. He looked over at the man writing down all the discussion. Those facts were wrong! They had to be. After all, when was the last time anyone reported anything right. It was a conspiracy!

"That man! He can't be trusted. Who knows what biases he'll put in those! It's a trap! Agrigar (Adavantos) must be evil!"

Anyways, welcome to all the new players. I'm voting for Adavantos for 2 reasons. One, he's a dangerous player. I want to see how he reacts to a vote being placed on him. Second, I don't like him summarizing posts. It's a lot of effort, but it doesn't accomplish anything. It allows him to be active without contributing to the contribution. In addition, his summaries will be biased to his side, whether intentionally or not. That's why I don't think this is a good idea.

Speaking from experience, while they are contributing without discussing, those summaries are also really storming useful sometimes. And I trust that Adavantos will have an actual discussion-post up by the end of this cycle.

Then there's the list. I see no reason Maill would have to be a commander in order to put together a list. Just by RNG, he's likely to get half right. Even if he's a regular, he knows at least one other person's alignment along with his own, and though he might have put himself in the wrong list, he could have put his captain in the correct one. If he's a captain or commander, he'll get even more right, obviously, but the point isn't to be as accurate as possible. The point is to get people to claim an alignment, which has thus far been admirably successful. So I don't think we can draw any conclusions about Maill's position or alignment... which was basically the intention...

Also, Hellscythe, although unwillingly. I understand why you placed the vote, though it still somewhat irritates me.

Last question for the GMs: Do we have to green out our votes in the original post, or not?

And if you wonder why I'm writing this when I said I'd be AFK for most of the rest of the cycle? Well, the answer is that I'm a very good procrastinator.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Elbereth

Kipper · December 14, 2015

Mailliw, I think you just spoiled an important part of the game.

Holy Batman, what th--MACE FREAKIN' WINDU IS HERE?!?!

C1 Post Summaries, 1 - 50[/size]

Note: GMs not included

Hellscythe: Asks a question (Note: that can be answered easily by reviewing the original thread).

Creccio: Wishes everyone good luck, references Hunger Games.

Stink: Answers Hellscythe’s question, adds that each cycle ends with lynch and elim kill.

Clanky: Votes for Paranoid King. Proposes plan to designate which faction scans which kill to prevent scan repetition. Asks for ideas on how to reveal information in public without putting Scholars in danger.

Creccio: Suggests color coded votes for who the town wants the Scholars scan.

Stink: Expresses that our primary focus needs to be killing the Diagrammists. Advises Radiants reveal to no one. Mentions the possibility of Diamgrammists being able to start PMs, in which case beware being manipulated in them. Insists that activity is a must but we should not target inactives in case they turn out to be a Radiant (note: this contradicts his statement about prioritizing the Eliminators)

Kynedath: Asks if Commanders are able to PM Captains; is immediately answered by Kas.

Elbereth: Responding to Clanky, says we should not assume that there are only 2 Scholars to begin with. While possible it is best to not make assumptions. Presents a couple ideas for the Scholars, including 1: Runner acts as intermediary for Scholar, and 2: Scholars reveal themselves publicly to garner protection. Asks GMs questions regarding redirecting Scholar-scans. Agrees that Clanky’s idea is sound, barring if an Elsecaller transforms a dead player set to be scanned into another role/alignment. Asks if write ups designate if a kill is Diagrammist or Cook and if someone is promoted if a player in their command chain is killed. Recommends that Runners contact their Superior to receive the name of their superior and continuously climb the chain until they reach their faction’s leader, to be directed to a player they want to learn more about. Asks other weigh in on this idea due to the Diagrammists. Advises that because there is a role that can look into PMs that players practice identity safety by keeping their names out of the conversations, nor reference their faction. Says in blue text that she will be playing this game differently than her last for reasons she doesn’t want to yet explain and that she will be relatively inactive for the rest of the cycle due to exams.

Stink: Reveals that he is a Son of Honor Runner.

Arraenae: RP post regarding write-up and Clanky’s vote against Paranoid King. Votes for Clanky asking for an explanation.

Clanky: Responds to Elbereth, explaining that he expects more than one Scholar per faction due to the criticality of their role and the difficulties associated with them revealing their information. Clarifies that Thaidakar and Restares only know players in their faction, not their alignments, and for this reason it isn’t necessary for Runners to contact them. Realizes that they don’t really need to check the Diagrammist kill with Scholars because they are essentially confirmed good. Edits to inform Arraenae that he voted for Paranoid King strictly for roleplay, as at the time he had no information to base suspicions off of.

Stink: Adds that he intends to reveal all information he learns in thread unless asked by a person it is specifically relevant to not to.

Kynedath: Reminds everyone that they are a new player, then expresses suspicion of Elbereth’s blue text. Says he doesn’t want to get on her bad side, just bring attention to it, then asks for an explanation.

Mailliw: Commends Stink for his previous post. Mentions that he has tried this in the past but it has always gotten him killed. Claims if he was a faction leader he would have told the entire thread who was under his charge.

Elbereth: Responds to Stinks reveal, saying she meant to only hear people’s opinions of a Runner revealing themselves, not encourage one to do that. Responds to Clanky’s post about Faction Leaders not knowing alignments, and attributes her previous thoughts as she was looking at the MR as a Faction Game, not an Elimination. Thinks it would be wise to occasionally scan Diagrammist Kills to see what role they lost.

Stink: Ensures that he already planned to reveal his role and faction placement, comments on the convenient timing.

Elbereth: Responds to Kynedath in blue text that the reason her playstyle this game is different is relevant to an ongoing Elimination game and therefore has to wait until it’s over. Responds to Mail’s idea of Faction Leaders revealing their members, saying she supports it but that it’s up to them to decide. Presents counterpoint that this would paint targets on the backs of the Faction Leaders, but that it would make it easier for Cooks to kill their opposing team.

Hellscythe: Votes for Stink with no explanation.

Elbereth: Votes for Hellscythe, asking for him to explain his vote. Almost wants to think he is a Ghostblood trying to pursue his secondary win condition rather than find Diagrammists.

Stink: Two words in response to Hellscythe’s vote.

Hellscythe: Answers Elbereth’s question with a question.

Stink: Passive aggressive response to Hellscythe.

Orlok: Votes for Stink, explaining that he thinks he is providing advice that sounds good without good intentions, which in addition to not fearing death for revealing his role and his strategy, is suspicious.

Stink: Responds to Orlok, says he was providing advice for new players rather than just shouting to practice PM safety. Also states that he could be killed but that his death would be interesting (assuming he means glean useful information).

Hellscythe: Asks if Surgeon protects from lynch.

phattmer: Votes for Hellscythe for his lack of explanation and because he thinks lynching a Runner is a bad idea.

Elbereth: Responds to Hellscythe’s question, saying that she believes the Surgeon protects from Lynch like it’s Surgebinder equivalent.

Clanky: Responds to Elbereth’s guess at the Surgeon, assuming that it does not protect from the Lynch because it does not exclusively mention it like the Edgedancer.

Elbereth: Admits Clanky’s theory might be right but wants clarification from the GMs due to the fact that every other Surgebinder ability has a non-Radiant equivalent. (Is soon told by Wilson that she is right and Surgeon protects from Lynches).

Elbereth: Thanks Wilson for responding so quickly. Says she is about to leave for awhile but first asks why Hellscythe voted for Stink, and that she agrees that lynching a claimed Runner right off the bat is a bad idea no matter their alignment as PMs benefit the good more than the evil.

Mailliw: Votes for Hellscythe for no other reason than “he likes PMs.”

Orlok: Asks that Stink be analyzed whether or not he is evil regardless of his role claim, as the two facts are a separate issue.

Hellscythe: Asks that in case there is an evil Surgeon that the Cook also target the lynch target to ensure their death in order to ensure one of theirs isn’t saved.

Ripple: Quotes Orlok, Stink and Mail. Doesn’t think killing Hellscythe or Stink is a good idea, as the former has previously proven themselves to be good at finding evils and the latter’s “acceptance of death seems reasonable.”

Araris: Informs the thread that he is paying attention but has no thoughts to express yet; in black text claims he is having a hard time focusing and will try again later.

Kipper: Says he is here but won’t be voting for anyone, referencing to the last time he did (likely referring to the Shallan Debacle of LG15). Claims that he plans to change up his play style by producing more “high quality posts,” but that it’ll likely take a few cycles as he is currently busy with real life (mentioned in black text). Reminds people to practice PM safety (strikes through) only to replace it with PM him.

Mailliw: Retracts vote from Hellscythe, claiming to see what he’s doing and that he will help. Then reveals himself as Thaidakar claiming that he was waiting for Restares to come out before doing so himself. Reveals a list of both faction’s rosters, scrambled so that positions cannot be determined. Tacks on at the end that we now that we don’t have to worry about faction reveals we can focus on killing the Diagrammists.

Tony: Quotes Mailliw, expressing confusion. Edits in that he wanted to talk about Hellscythe but after Mail’s reveal he won’t place a vote quite yet.

Hael: Responds to Mail’s reveal, rhetorically asking why he’s not surprised. Mentions that he was curious to see how a faction game would go without players knowing all their teammates.

Ripple: Tells Mail to double check his roster, claiming she is a Son of Honor on his list but actually a Ghostblood.

Mailliw: Claims he flipped her and Arraenae for having similar RP names.

Feligon: Suggests other Runners contact Stink in order to establish a network, and that he needs more time to think and thus will post later.

Kynedath: Expresses that Mail has ruined half of / the “most appetizing” aspect of the game.

Mace: Affirms Kynedath’s previous post about Mail spoiling an important part of the game.

Ripple: Quotes Kynedath, referencing the game Portal.

Arraenae: Retracts their vote on Clanky in favor of Orlok for being “eager to kill someone for giving new players advice about PM safety.” Reminds him that new players have no prior experience to go off of and tips like this are extremely useful for them, obvious to recurring players or not. Also asks for Hellscythe’s reasoning for thinking that Stink is a Diagrammist. Edits in that both her faction and the faction of those she knows the faction of are wrong on Mailliw’s list.

Aonar: Quickly posts that he is paying some attention but (in black text) that he hasn’t had a lot of time to gather his thoughts. Expresses that Stink’s reveal is both odd and counter productive for the long term, but because he can’t see a logical reason that a Diagrammist would make that move he will refrain from voting just yet. Also adds that he doesn’t know what Mail’s trying to accomplish and for that reason will keep quiet about it.

Hael: Says that he has something to say in regards to Mail’s reveal but that it’ll have to wait until later.

Creccio: Comments on Stink and Mail’s reveals. Thinks Stink is trying to gain player’s trust and observe our reactions, as well as figure out an efficient target for his ability to create PMs. On Mail, leaves it up to the individual to believe it’s validity, but if it’s proven false we need to discuss what his intentions may have been.

Adavantos: I shouldn’t have to summarize my own post within this summary. However I will add to this post that I will try to keep this trend up so long as I’m alive. That being said, I am about to go to get off work and go to sleep, so when I awaken I will have to catch up on everything I miss which will likely take some time. Once I finish that I will begin weighing in on who I believe is suspicious so far.

Bro. Spoilers please. That post felt longer than the entire last three pages. And yeah, I didn't blue my text. I can if you want, but since nobody really uses it anymore, I figured it was unnecessary. I do hereby solemnly swear that whatever Adavantos insinuated that I said (or implied) in a post while simultaneously implying that I was being disingenuous for not putting it in blue text and maybe being a tricksy little smart*** with...where was I? Oh yes, it's probably true, whatever I said.

What use does a diagrammist have for knowing peoples faction?

Diagrammists always have a use for knowing information. They also have a use for knowing who is giving out information. Typically, more powerful roles with a greater vested team interest in not dying are more reluctant to publicly give out lots of information.

I rarely post without giving it at least ten minutes of thought.

Is it wrong that I want to play ToS Rapid Mode with you right now?

Now, does anyone have any leads or ways for us to figure out the diagramist? I am drawing a blank in here...

Creccio confirmed Diagrammist.

Anyways, welcome to all the new players. I'm voting for Adavantos for 2 reasons. One, he's a dangerous player. I want to see how he reacts to a vote being placed on him. Second, I don't like him summarizing posts. It's a lot of effort, but it doesn't accomplish anything. It allows him to be active without contributing to the contribution. In addition, his summaries will be biased to his side, whether intentionally or not. That's why I don't think this is a good idea.

I don't like this post at all. Why vote for someone for summarizing posts, and use "bias" as your reasoning? Do you have any examples of bias in his post? If not, why assume that there is bias in a straight summary. It's not untypical of Adavantos to do this kind of summation. In this case, I don't think his summation is particularly useful, but I didn't notice any bias.

Also, what do you hope to learn from his reaction to a vote? What do you suggest for "unbiased" discussion instead of what Adavantos did? I notice that while you took the new players aside for an explanation, you didn't actually provide any substantive discussion of your own (and if you had, it probably would have been--surprise!--biased). Sart.

P.S. I'm really tired right now; thought you should know.

P.P.S. Adavantos, I can't wait to see your summary of this post.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Kipper

Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

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