Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Kasimir]

Rule Clarifications:
 
1. So, can I open PMs?
 
No. You cannot and may not. No players should be opening any PMs other than your GM PM for the first cycle. Runners, please recall that you have to submit an action to do so. Please refrain from creating PMs on your own. Thank you.
 
2. What is the structure of the cycles?

Day and night have been collapsed together into a single 48 hour cycle. So the Diagrammist kill and the lynch will both go off in the same cycle. 
 
3. Can Runners/Tension set up a message between other players or between more than one player at a time?
 
No. Runners/Tension always set up one-on-one PMs and this PM must include the Runner/Bondsmith themselves.

4. Can Progression/Surgeon protect from all attacks or only one?

They protect from one attack (or kill attempt), as stated in The Rules

5. Can the Explorer/Elsecaller protect from the lynch?

This has come up Elsewhere (pun not entirely intended.) Wilson's ruling is that the rules are mistaken: Elsecallers/Explorers are protected from everything except the lynch. (This rule change for the Explorers will go into effect Cycle 2.

To quote Word of Wilson:

Transportation blocks all. Think of it like that the Elsecaller or the Explorer (since they have the same power) is nowhere to be found for any role ability. The only thing that can touch them is the lynch, because then everyone's looking for them and they can't hide.

 

6. Does Friction affect PMs sent to the GM? What about messages in the Eliminator doc?

Lol, nice try, but no.

7. What happens if a vote manipulator targets someone affected by Adhesion?

Wilson took this one:
 

If the two players who have been tied together with adhesion are not aligned in vote at the end of the cycle (whether due to not voting the same or because of vote manipulations), we'll flip a coin to see which of the two contrasting votes takes precedence and the other will be automatically switched to that. So if the vote-manipulated one won, then the other would be swapped to the vote manipulation. But if the other won, then the vote manipulation would be negated.

8. Do we need to green out our previous votes in the original post?

I'm just going to rule that you should do so (read this as a strong 'should'), in order to A. make life easier for us (see: faster rollovers), and B. to reduce the chances that we make a mistake and someone who wasn't supposed to get lynched gets lynched. So everyone wins.

 

9. Does the Elsecaller have to change both role and alignment?

 

No. They can choose one or the other if they want.

 

10. Can the Artifabrian take effects happening to the dead? 

 

No.

Edited December 14, 2015 by little wilson

[Hellscythe]

Wait so is it one Day/Night Cycle? Or a 48 hour Day then a 48 hour Night?I knew I was gonna get Regular. For the __!

Edited December 13, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Creccio]

I just want to wish everyone a good game and the odds to be ever in your favor

[STINK]

It is a 48 hour cycle with both the day and night happening at once. By next cycle, there will be an elim kill and a lynch at the same time.

[little wilson]

Announcement:

This is a limited comms game. For this game, that means that only the Bondsmith and the Runners can request PMs to be created. Do not create any game PMs with other players . The Bondsmith and Runners can use their abilities to request a PM to be created on the next cycle. There should be no PM communication on this first cycle.

Thank you.

[Clanky]

"Slalassalas, I hear that you are a great swordsman and that you have defeated many Horneaters. That doesn't impress me. Fighting is not something to be proud of. Now perhaps if you were to best me at a mudbeer drinking contest then you would have my respect."

 

-----

So we really need to use the Veristitalian Scholars properly in order to gain any info from a death. So I propose that in order to not have them all looking at the same person we should have the Son of Honour Scholar examine the Lynch kill and the Ghostblood Scolar examine the Diagrammist kill. The faction doesn't actually matter but I feel like we should designate somehow to avoid repetition. I know that this doesn't cover stuff like the Cook kills but it will hopefully prevent too much repetitive scanning. Now as for making the scans public that is just as important and more difficult. I'm not sure exactly how to go about that. 

 

EDIT: Vote colour

Edited December 14, 2015 by Clanky

[Creccio]

-----

So we really need to use the Veristitalian Scholars properly in order to gain any info from a death. So I propose that in order to not have them all looking at the same person we should have the Son of Honour Scholar examine the Lynch kill and the Ghostblood Scolar examine the Diagrammist kill. The faction doesn't actually matter but I feel like we should designate somehow to avoid repetition. I know that this doesn't cover stuff like the Cook kills but it will hopefully prevent too much repetitive scanning. Now as for making the scans public that is just as important and more difficult. I'm not sure exactly how to go about that. 

 

I have not come to a way to make the scans public but repetition should be avoided...

 

How about we use a color system and vote?

 

So

 

Ghost Scholar and Sons Scholar?

 

That way we can account for kill roles and inquire about the persons the majority has doubts on and use democracy to operate

[STINK]

Our first focus needs to be on killing the Diagrammists, though there will be people hoping to kill non-diagrammists in the hope to make their faction win.

Radiants, do not reveal to anyone at all. Everyone else, be aware that if the Diagrammists can make PMs, then the PMs with people will definitely be manipulative.

We need people to talk, not sit in silence. However, we should not kill inactives, as what if one of them is a Radiant on your team? Or the one Bondsmith that offers another win con just by being alive?

[Kynedath]

Rule Clarifications:

 

1. So, can I open PMs?

 

No. You cannot and may not. No players should be opening any PMs other than your GM PM for the first cycle. Runners, please recall that you have to submit an action to do so. Please refrain from creating PMs on your own. Thank you.

 

 

What about the structure of the factions, will commanders be able to PM captains?

[Kasimir]

What about the structure of the factions, will commanders be able to PM captains?

If the commander is a Runner? Sure. Otherwise, no. PMs can only be created by Runners or Bondsmiths. Rank has nothing to do with this. Think of rank as something that determines how much of your faction's command structure you know. It only affects knowledge. Your role, on the other hand, affects what you can do.

[Elbereth]

"Slalassalas, I hear that you are a great swordsman and that you have defeated many Horneaters. That doesn't impress me. Fighting is not something to be proud of. Now perhaps if you were to best me at a mudbeer drinking contest then you would have my respect."

-----

So we really need to use the Veristitalian Scholars properly in order to gain any info from a death. So I propose that in order to not have them all looking at the same person we should have the Son of Honour Scholar examine the Lynch kill and the Ghostblood Scolar examine the Diagrammist kill. The faction doesn't actually matter but I feel like we should designate somehow to avoid repetition. I know that this doesn't cover stuff like the Cook kills but it will hopefully prevent too much repetitive scanning. Now as for making the scans public that is just as important and more difficult. I'm not sure exactly how to go about that.

Well, first, you're assuming that there's only one Scholar on each side, which doesn't seem necessarily true. Possible, of course, but it is an assumption that we should realize we're making.

Second, here are a couple ideas about making them public. These are just off of the top of my head, and probably have several holes, but they're somewhere to start:

1) Obviously, if a Runner contacts a Scholar, the Runner can announce it to the thread (same with a Bondsmith). Runners aren't necessarily publicly known, but I see no harm in one Runner revealing to the thread in order to announce the Scholar's results. The Diagrammists might target him/her, but very possibly not. It depends on what their thoughts on PMs are.

2) Another option is for the Scholars themselves to publicly announce their results to the thread. Everyone wants the Scholars to survive, because otherwise no one has any idea who is dead. I mean, the Diagrammists will know whether the death was one of their faction, and at least the Restares or the Thaidakar will know the person's alignment, but practically no one will know their role, which is something that would be advantageous for most people to know. Of course, this could result in people redirecting the Scholar's target if they don't want someone else to know what role/alignment a particular person is, but I could still see it working.

That brings up a question, actually. If a Lightweaver uses illumination on a Scholar and tries to get him/her to target someone still alive, what happens? I would guess that the Scholar either gets redirected to a random other dead player, or his/her powers do nothing. For an Artifabrian, who redirects actions onto himself, does the Scholar's action simply do nothing?

I think that Clanky's idea for which Scholar should target who is better than Creccio's idea for votes, though both have problems. In particular, Elsecallers can change the appearance of any dead person for two cycles. If they know ahead of time who is going to be scanned, our information will be much less trustworthy.

More questions:

1) Will the writeup reveal how people are killed? i.e. Will we know the difference between a Diagrammist kill and the Cook kill?

2) What happens to the command structure when someone dies? For example, if the Thaidakar/Restares dies, does one of the commanders step up to take their place, or is there just a gap there? If a commander/captain dies, do their underlings report to someone new?

General thoughts:

We know there is at least one Runner per faction. Runners, I recommend that the first PM you open is with your immediate superior. Hopefully, that superior will tell you their superior, so that you go up the chain until you're in contact with the Thaidakar, who can help direct y ou to people he/she wants to know more about. However, I don't know that this is the best advice, given that the Runners could be Diagrammists, so I'd appreciate others weighing in on this.

Given that there is a role which can see one side of a PM, everyone who enters into a PM should not ever mention the name of the person whom they are PMing. This should be obvious, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. In a similar vein, don't say "between us Ghostbloods", or call the other person Captain/Commander/Thaidakar/Restares, even if you know that's what they are. Basically, since Kas can't say it, Practice PM safety!

Edit: As you may notice, I'm trying a completely different playstyle than the previous game. There are reasons for that, which I don't want to explain right now. Also, I'll likely be AFK for most of the rest of the cycle, so don't expect another post as long as this (although it could happen), because I'm putting my effort into studying for my last three finals rather than this.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Ookla the Star-Goddess

[STINK]

I am a Sons of Honour Runner. Regular.

[Arrae]

Breaking news! A man smuggling weapons into Urithiru was killed by a Shardblade yesterday morning.

Arina sat in her chair and studied the lead she'd just written, ignoring the silvery creationspren drifting around her. The lead wasn't quite what she wanted, but it would have to do for now. She could fix it later, after she had a decent first draft.

She glanced back at the fact sheet one of the beat reporter's had collected. Man killed by Shardblade, had a wound in his back, strange diamond tattoo... Ah, here it was. His eyes had been cut out to hide the fact that he had been killed by a Shardblade.

And what was this? Someone claiming that a Horneater champion had done it? And the beat reporter hadn't followed up? Arina needed to check this out.

Clanky, I'd like an explanation for your vote on PK. I'm on mobile right now and can't do color, but count this as a vote-to-be.

EDIT: I think I've figured out brackets now. I hate typing on mobile.

EDIT# 2: Greened the vote.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Arraenae

[Clanky]

Well, first, you're assuming that there's only one Scholar on each side, which doesn't seem necessarily true. Possible, of course, but it is an assumption that we should realize we're making.

Second, here are a couple ideas about making them public. These are just off of the top of my head, and probably have several holes, but they're somewhere to start:

1) Obviously, if a Runner contacts a Scholar, the Runner can announce it to the thread (same with a Bondsmith). Runners aren't necessarily publicly known, but I see no harm in one Runner revealing to the thread in order to announce the Scholar's results. The Diagrammists might target him/her, but very possibly not. It depends on what their thoughts on PMs are.

2) Another option is for the Scholars themselves to publicly announce their results to the thread. Everyone wants the Scholars to survive, because otherwise no one has any idea who is dead. I mean, the Diagrammists will know whether the death was one of their faction, and at least the Restares or the Thaidakar will know the person's alignment, but practically no one will know their role, which is something that would be advantageous for most people to know. Of course, this could result in people redirecting the Scholar's target if they don't want someone else to know what role/alignment a particular person is, but I could still see it working.

That brings up a question, actually. If a Lightweaver uses illumination on a Scholar and tries to get him/her to target someone still alive, what happens? I would guess that the Scholar either gets redirected to a random other dead player, or his/her powers do nothing. For an Artifabrian, who redirects actions onto himself, does the Scholar's action simply do nothing?

I think that Clanky's idea for which Scholar should target who is better than Creccio's idea for votes, though both have problems. In particular, Elsecallers can change the appearance of any dead person for two cycles. If they know ahead of time who is going to be scanned, our information will be much less trustworthy.

More questions:

1) Will the writeup reveal how people are killed? i.e. Will we know the difference between a Diagrammist kill and the Cook kill?

2) What happens to the command structure when someone dies? For example, if the Thaidakar/Restares dies, does one of the commanders step up to take their place, or is there just a gap there? If a commander/captain dies, do their underlings report to someone new?

General thoughts:

We know there is at least one Runner per faction. Runners, I recommend that the first PM you open is with your immediate superior. Hopefully, that superior will tell you their superior, so that you go up the chain until you're in contact with the Thaidakar, who can help direct y ou to people he/she wants to know more about. However, I don't know that this is the best advice, given that the Runners could be Diagrammists, so I'd appreciate others weighing in on this.

Given that there is a role which can see one side of a PM, everyone who enters into a PM should not ever mention the name of the person whom they are PMing. This should be obvious, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. In a similar vein, don't say "between us Ghostbloods", or call the other person Captain/Commander/Thaidakar/Restares, even if you know that's what they are. Basically, since Kas can't say it, Practice PM safety!

 

Yes multiple Scholars per faction is something that I suspect is actually likely given how crucial they are and how difficult it will be to get the info out. We can't really plan for it unless they get in contact with each other some way. 

 

Also Thadikar and Restares only know whether they are SoH or GB not if they are also a diagrammist so that doesn't really help anyone. There isn't really a need for runners to get in contact with their superiors since knowing Factions of people isn't really necessary.

 

One thing that I realized from my original plan is that we won't really need a scan on the Diagram kill since we know they are village aligned, barring some crazy dissent or ridiculous strategy amongst the Diagrammists. So we could change the plan to SoH scans Lynch and GB scans Cook kills. That is assuming that they are discernible from each other in the write-up.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Arranae.

My vote on PK was solely for RPing reasons. I have no suspicions at this point so I decided I would vote for something based upon in character reasons. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Clanky

[Kasimir]

Just to repeat and to be more clear: ranks do not give you 1337 communication powers. If you're Restares and not a Runner/Bondsmith, then you still can't communicate with anyone. Life's unfair that way

El's correct. Scholars cannot target the living and if hit with a redirect, will simply not get a result back. This would function effectively as if you were role-blocked. Note that the only exception is if you targeted an Explorer/Elsecaller; if they were using their ability, then you would be informed you couldn't locate your target.

With regard to write-up informativeness, Wilson and I have spoken and decided that we are going to differentiate Cook kills from Diagrammist kills. Cook kills will always involve poison. (Where unclear, please ask us and we will clarify, since we have decided that this is information you should be having.) While we're on that note, I will also add that while protections thwarting attacks will be reflected in the write-up, this is not the case for Transporation/Explorer. This is just because these do not so much save from attacks as prevent them from occurring in the first place. So, to recap: if an Explorer using their ability is attacked, this will not be in the write-up.
 
And about the command structure?

Way to push for a promotion, eh? No, you do not get free promotions that way. So if you kill a Restares/Thaidakar by accident, we're not replacing them. You break 'em, your problem. We do not have an insurance or returns policy for them. Thank you and have a nice day

Edited December 13, 2015 by Kasimir

[STINK]

Seems I forgot to add this earlier.

All information I receive will be posted in thread, unless the person giving me info asks for that to not happen.

[Kynedath]

Edit: As you may notice, I'm trying a completely different playstyle than the previous game. There are reasons for that, which I don't want to explain right now. Also, I'll likely be AFK for most of the rest of the cycle, so don't expect another post as long as this (although it could happen), because I'm putting my effort into studying for my last three finals rather than this.

 

So I know that since this is my first game I don't know everything about it, but from what I have heard so far, this seems like a suspicious post. I really don't want to make an enemy out of you Elbereth but I just want to bring attention to it.

 

I for one would like to know when you plan on explaining it and why you don't want to explain now.

[Mailliw73]

Seems I forgot to add this earlier.

All information I receive will be posted in thread, unless the person giving me info asks for that to not happen.

Props to you. I've tried this, but it always gets me killed. I love the strategy though. If I had been Restares or Thaidakar, I planned to reveal everyone's factions to the thread. 

[Elbereth]

I am a Sons of Honour Runner. Regular.

When I said I thought Runners should reveal their roles, I kind of wanted others to weigh in before someone actually claimed. And also you really didn't need to claim your alignment as well. ...Too late now, I guess.

Also Thadikar and Restares only know whether they are SoH or GB not if they are also a diagrammist so that doesn't really help anyone. There isn't really a need for runners to get in contact with their superiors since knowing Factions of people isn't really necessary.

 

One thing that I realized from my original plan is that we won't really need a scan on the Diagram kill since we know they are village aligned, barring some crazy dissent or ridiculous strategy amongst the Diagrammists. So we could change the plan to SoH scans Lynch and GB scans Cook kills. That is assuming that they are discernible from each other in the write-up.

This is a good point. At that point I was thinking about faction vs. faction, rather than everyone vs. Diagrammists, which was my mistake.

This is also true, with the caveat that we may occasionally want to scan someone who was killed by the Diagrammists, for their role. So scanning them wouldn't be entirely useless.

[Kasimir]

One last clarification before I sign off for the night, and this is on my policy with regard to clarifications (Wilson may have a different policy). I am not going to give priority to questions with answers that are already known. Frankly, I have better things to do than to babysit 36 odd PMs, each with questions that could be easily answered if one just clicked on the very first post of MR10. This is especially egregious in the case of things like what the order of actions is. So I'm not going to refuse to answer them, but they're going to be right at the bottom of my to-do list.

 

My yardstick is more or less: 'Can you answer this question with a click and a bit of scrolling?" If so, then I'm not going to rush to answer it. I'll prioritise genuinely unanswered questions such as whether Cook and Diagrammist kills are differentiated.

 

Thank you and have fun slaughtering.

[STINK]

I was already planning to reveal my role and everything. Convinient timing of was though!

[Elbereth]

So I know that since this is my first game I don't know everything about it, but from what I have heard so far, this seems like a suspicious post. I really don't want to make an enemy out of you Elbereth but I just want to bring attention to it.

 

I for one would like to know when you plan on explaining it and why you don't want to explain now.

The reason I'm not explaining it right now is because it concerns a game still in progress, LG15, and it's bad form to talk about games that are still going on. If you look back at the signups, you'll see that I mentioned this before the game started, before I could have known what my role was. Basically, it concerns why my playstyle has changed, because I don't want to be lynched by players who are in both games and see that I'm acting very differently. Does that explain it?

Props to you. I've tried this, but it always gets me killed. I love the strategy though. If I had been Restares or Thaidakar, I planned to reveal everyone's factions to the thread.

Oooh, that's an interesting idea. I would not be opposed to the Restares/Thaidakar doing so. Up to you, of course, but it could make this game a lot more interesting, at the very least.

Potential problems with it: The Diagrammists (and everyone else) now know who either the Restares or the Thaidakar is, and thus can easily kill him/her, which could result in problems for that faction. The secondary win condition is a good deal harder to achieve, but at the same time easier because if you have a low-ranking Cook, that Cook can now kill only the other faction, rather than mostly randomly guessing.

[Hellscythe]

IrulelikeSTINK  this guy is suspicious as *******

Edited December 13, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Elbereth]

Hellscythe? Care to explain your vote? I'd almost think you were a Ghostblood trying to kill the other faction, rather than just trying to kill the Diagrammists... Edited December 14, 2015 by Elbereth

[STINK]

Fair enough.