Thoughts on Shardblades and KR

[The Count]

 I know WoR is just a few weeks away now but I just can't restrain myself from theorising on stuff!

 

So here we go, I have been thinking for some time about the problem of the number of shardblades on Roshar.

 

For those unaware, the main argument is that, in the Feverstone Keep vision, we see ~300 Radiants from 2 Orders (Windrunners and Stonewards) give up their plate & blades. Extrapolating over the 10 orders, this implies over 1000 blades overall.

 

Dalinar states that they cannot be more than 100 known blades in all the world (an this is generous by his estimations).

 

It is clear that there were, at one time, more sets of plate and blade than can be accounted for on modern Roshar.

 

The most popular resolutions is that there is a cache of blades / plate hidden somewhere (probable Urithiru) awaiting discovery by the series protagonists.

 

I would like to propose another solution.

 

Theory:

Blades and Plate sets originally crumbled to dust when the KR to whom they belonged died UNLESS they were deliberately given away (at which point they behave as we see them in the books).

 

Obviously I have not textual evidence for this but I have some logical points to make:

 

1/ During the desolations in which the Radiants fought, presumably some of them died. It all they shardblades dropped when they did, then non radiant would surely have picked them up and continued fighting.

 

I do not think that the Radiants could have controlled the spread of the blades among the populous unless this was not possible (due to the shards being destroyed on the Radiant's death).

 

Then again, maybe this did happen and some of the modern blades are descended form instances like this.

 

2/ We have never seen in world, what happened to a shardblade (i.e. Radiant blade) when the original holder dies while carrying it. This is not much, I agree.

 

3/ I feel it is heavily implied that sets of blade and plate are intensely personal items tied to a persons soul. I think thematically it works quite well for the blade to follow that soul to the afterlife (unless it was given away freely).

 

There is evidence for this in world as the Honorblades follow the Heralds to Damnation when they die.

 

I agree these are quite flimsy, but I feel they suit the idea of the blades as tied to the soul and arising out of the Nahel Bond (both not proven yet). Plus the possibility of the blades and plate naturally being destroyed neatly solves the numbers issue.

 

This could also be what Brandon was referring to when he said modern blades are 'different'.

 

What do you all think?

 

 

[hoser]

Seems possible.  I like the theory.  Upvote!

 

I do think the Radiants could have controlled, and would have felt obliged to, the use of Radiantblades from their fallen comrades.  Keeping an eye out for lighteyed people and corpses with burned out eyes might have been good enough.  If they could detect Radiantblade use, that would make it easier.  They may been surrounded by non-Radiant soldiers that were loyal to them also.  

 

In your point 2/, I think you mean "original Radiant holder dies while carrying it", but I am not sure.  Since we saw the death of the shardbearer Kaladin killed, you are presumably trying to differentiate from that instance.

 

The Shardblades are invested metal.  I think it would have taken an act to cause them to turn to dust.  The Radiants could well have done that act in all the cases you describe (when Radiants die or at the Recreance), so I don't think this affects the core of the theory. 

 

The remaining blades of the 300 abandoned at Feverstone are still not accounted for.  Lost/hidden?

 

If Radiants did not live extended lives or pass weapons between generations, something like this might have been needed, as otherwise there would be thousands upon thousands of weapons stored somewhere, presumably weakening Honor. 

[Kier]

I do think this is a good theory. 

 

I agree that the plate and blade where very personal items. I also think part of that is still there. (Hench why it is so difficult and so unnerving for Dalinar to think about the King loaning out his plate and blade for duels.) However, with them that connection isn't even close to as personal as I think the original Radiants was to their plate and blade. 

 

That being the case I do think something happend when radiants died. Also, we can infer some things from other works...

 

Mistborn spoilers

We know that Kelsier, Vin, and Elend are in the after life and can talk make their wishes known to Sazed at the end of the MIstborn trilogy. And that they are Happy.

This leads creedence that the cognitive, or spirital side of a person lives after the body on scandrial and most likely throughout the cosmere since they have the same/similar 3 realm set up.

[Natans]

That could fit. And would explain why the radiants dropped their armors and blades in the Feverstone Keep, also that would explain why the blades and armors don't shine anymore.

 

If you are correct, Dalinar giving up his armor and blade, and Kaladin refusing take that shardplate are indeed smart choices, because givin them time, they will "grow" their personal set.

 

But if this is the case how a Surgebind "grow" a plate and armor ? The Bondsmith theory? The say the Last Ideal of his order theory ? Another thing ?

 

WOR come fast we need you =)

 

Upvote

[marianmi]

Szeth mentions in the Prologue that Blade and Plate were gifts from the gods.

So this has to be taken as a viable alternative: they do not "grow" their armor, but rather they are receiving it as gift from a shard. It's not clear also that ALL radiants had Plate and Blade. With Honor dead, it's not even clear they can get new ones though. In the vision, Tanavast said to "return" to the men the shards they bore (plate and blade). So maybe they need to find a way to "clense" them from corruption. And find that hidden cache of course. Another possibility is that the hidden cache is not corrupted, only those given to the people of Feverstone Keep.

Edited January 8, 2014 by marianmi

[Kier]

Szeth mentions in the Prologue that Blade and Plate were gifts from the gods.

So this has to be taken as a viable alternative: they do not "grow" their armor, but rather they are receiving it as gift from a shard. It's not clear also that ALL radiants had Plate and Blade. With Honor dead, it's not even clear they can get new ones though. In the vision, Tanavast said to "return" to the men the shards they bore (plate and blade). So maybe they need to find a way to "clense" them from corruption. And find that hidden cache of course. Another possibility is that the hidden cache is not corrupted, only those given to the people of Feverstone Keep.

 

You also need to remember taht Szeths people worship stone and think it a sin to walk on it (Yet I'm pretty sure the heralds are walking on it in the prelude...) Also that the voidbringers are not real. So, although he has some knowledge about the Radiants and Surgebinding he isn't exactly a reliable source. 

 

Edit: added the heralds walking on stone part.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Kier

[vikorr]

Blades and Plate sets originally crumbled to dust when the KR to whom they belonged died UNLESS they were deliberately given away (at which point they behave as we see them in the books).

 

 

From Chapter 47 'Stormblessings'

 

Kaladin kills a shardbearer :

 

'The Sharbearer creaked, then fell backward, crashing to the ground. His Blade dropped from him fingers, hitting the ground at an anagle and digging into the stone.'

 

Amaram says 'If he were still alive his blade would have vanished. His armor is falling off him...'

[The Count]

Seems possible.  I like the theory.  Upvote!

 

I do think the Radiants could have controlled, and would have felt obliged to, the use of Radiantblades from their fallen comrades.  Keeping an eye out for lighteyed people and corpses with burned out eyes might have been good enough.  If they could detect Radiantblade use, that would make it easier.  They may been surrounded by non-Radiant soldiers that were loyal to them also.

I agree that this is true. My thoughts tended towards numbers of men. There would have been MANY normal soldiers per Radiant. I think that in the heat of a pitched battle with monstrous creatures, even loyal soldiers may feel compelled to take up fallen blades if they were available.

If they could detect them somehow to recover them (as it seems the Stone Shamens can do) then this is less of an issue I agree.

 

In your point 2/, I think you mean "original Radiant holder dies while carrying it", but I am not sure.  Since we saw the death of the shardbearer Kaladin killed, you are presumably trying to differentiate from that instance.

Indeed, by 'original holder' I mean KR who first made / was given it. Distinctly different to both Gavilar and Kaladin's Shardbearer who were inheritors of blades / plate.

The Shardblades are invested metal.  I think it would have taken an act to cause them to turn to dust.  The Radiants could well have done that act in all the cases you describe (when Radiants die or at the Recreance), so I don't think this affects the core of the theory.

I agree that this is a major issue but I suppose we could see it as the power of Honor being returned to the Shard in the instance of the KR's death, causing the destruction of the blades.

I would see the giving away of the blades as an interruption of this process of recycling Honor's power.

The remaining blades of the 300 abandoned at Feverstone are still not accounted for.  Lost/hidden?

Good point... +1 to you. This is still an issue, but 300 unaccounted for is more plausible than 1000 for me. I think we must assume lost for this theory - or destroyed in some other way.

If Radiants did not live extended lives or pass weapons between generations, something like this might have been needed, as otherwise there would be thousands upon thousands of weapons stored somewhere, presumably weakening Honor.

Indeed, this was exactly my starting point when thinking about this. I have never been a fan of blades / plate as heirlooms for the KR and thousands upon thousands of missing shards also seems unlikely.

I believe blades must have been destroyed by some means or another. Automatic destruction on death of the KR just seems like the easiest mechanism to me.

From Chapter 47 'Stormblessings'

 

Kaladin kills a shardbearer :

 

'The Sharbearer creaked, then fell backward, crashing to the ground. His Blade dropped from him fingers, hitting the ground at an anagle and digging into the stone.'

 

Amaram says 'If he were still alive his blade would have vanished. His armor is falling off him...'

Kaladin kills someone who 'inherited' a blade, not the original KR. In the theory above, the gifting of the blade / plate causes them to act as we see ion the book.

[vikorr]

So you are saying that :

 

1. if they are not gifted, they crumble to dust

2. if they gift them, they won't crumble to dust

3. but when gifted to the new owner, the rules in 1. don't apply

 

Or in other words, the (giving) gifting of a blade causes them to no longer have to be (given away) gifted (in order for the blade to not crumble to dust)?

 

That's so problematic that I can't buy it.

 

Basically, the evidence (what happens when Kaladin kills a shardbearer) is contrary to your theory.

Edited January 8, 2014 by vikorr

[The Count]

So you are saying that :

 

1. if they are not gifted, they crumble to dust

2. if they gift them, they won't crumble to dust

3. but when gifted to the new owner, the rules in 1. don't apply

 

Or in other words, the (giving) gifting of a blade causes them to no longer have to be (given away) gifted (in order for the blade to not crumble to dust)?

 

That's so problematic that I can't buy it.

 

Basically, the evidence (what happens when Kaladin kills a shardbearer) is contrary to your theory.

I think you are misunderstanding my argument (or I am not explaining it very well).

Only the first gifting matters (i.e. by the Radiant who made or was given it by Honor or whatever).

My theory is that if that Radiant died while being bound to the blade, it crumbles.

If he gives the blade away (like at Feverstone Keep) and THEN subsequently dies, it does not. These blades have been changed by that initial giving by the TRUE owner of the blade (the KR) and now behave as we see them in world.

Since all in world deaths of shardbearers, including Gavilar and Kaladin's shardbearer, carry inherited blades (that is blades that were originally given away by the KR), their deaths merely cause the blade to drop.

Does that make more sense?

Edited January 8, 2014 by The Count

[marianmi]

So, what if a spren is needed to ... enhance ... the link with the Shards?

W/o the spren, you have the current .. altered... shards

[11thorderknight]

I like this theory a lot. To clarify, what OP is saying is that the original Radiantshards were personal to each Knight; they were somehow created for each Knight, and disappeared with his death. At the Recreance, some or all of the Knights did something to give their Shards away to regular humans, and in the process something changed about the Shards, making them the objects they are today - able to be passed from person to person, but lacking some quality of the originals. 

 

I'd like to take things further and postulate that, maybe, this was the great betrayal - the giving of objects of great power to men who couldn't use them properly, and in whose hands they caused great destruction.

[QuantumHarmonix]

What if the shards are somehow a physical manifestation of the Knights oaths?

In the Chapter 2 excerpt of WoR Yasnah says that spren are "concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention." This leads me to believe that it is also possible to give a concept a physical form, in this case turn the oaths into shards. 

. So once a Radiant has learned all of their orders oaths they can turn them into shards, possibly while in Shadesmar. Then when the original Knight died, his oaths died with him. But the breaking of those oaths during the Recreance severed that connection. This would allow the shards to persist as a physical embodiment of that abandonment and betrayal, which could also explain why Sly doesn't like them.