Skar killed Gaz

[Plastic Misting]

What are the theories on Lamiril's blackmail anyway?

 

Let's assume Gaz' crime was murder and Lamiril has evidence.

It's not like Lamiril could just come out say: "Hey, that murder that happened a year ago, that was Gaz. I knew it all along and was blackmailing him the entire time."

 

However from the threat that Gaz would join the bridgemen we can also assume that after the blackmail was revealed it would be handled within the law. It would be more or less public. It's clearly not a threat of assassination or the like.

 

I can't think of anythign that Gaz could've done that fits both of those criterias.

[Aleksiel]

Gaz tends to go out at the of highstorms to collect his spheres. Perhaps he just went a bit too early and now his body is somewhere in the chasms.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Chlehrma]

What are the theories on Lamiril's blackmail anyway?

 

Let's assume Gaz' crime was murder and Lamiril has evidence.

It's not like Lamiril could just come out say: "Hey, that murder that happened a year ago, that was Gaz. I knew it all along and was blackmailing him the entire time."

 

However from the threat that Gaz would join the bridgemen we can also assume that after the blackmail was revealed it would be handled within the law. It would be more or less public. It's clearly not a threat of assassination or the like.

 

I can't think of anythign that Gaz could've done that fits both of those criterias.

Perhaps Gaz has been lifting spheres from other people's baskets during highstorms.

[Moash]

1. Gaz was being blackmailed by Lamirl. We have not reason to believe anyone else knew about whatever it was Lamirl was blackmailing him for. Lamirl got exicuted. 

2. ...

3. I can agree, I just said Skar becasue he is the one that mentions it in the chasm. Maybe it was Skar and Moash? Becuase I agree it seems more a Moashy type action.

4. I mostly disagree with this statement. I can see why that seems the case. Except most of the guards/soldiers hate bridge 4. why would anyone believe them? and the New Lighteyes lady and her husband (names escape me.) Really hate them and I can see the bridge man easily thinking, I could get Gaz to agree with me and maybe get a reward, but these soldiers or that lighteyes lady? they will just hang me out to dry and punish me for tying to make myself look important.

 

At least those are my thoughts.

I didn't kill that Storming fellow Gaz, why is it so hard to believe that!

[Moash]

I was just thinking about this theory and how Kaladin in one of the Words of Radiance chapters mentioned how Skar and Moash were like him trained killers, mayhaps a hint at Skar? Oh and why wouldn't there be something mentioned about Gaz by his superiors?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Moash

[Chlehrma]

Gaz is not a bad guy, he was just in a tough spot. Reread the sections on Gaz and he is noticeably uncomfortable with a lot of what was required of him, but did not want to get demoted to bridgeman. And Moash is innocent. After Lamaril's death, Gaz probably recovered his spheres and made a run for it.

[hoser]

Hmm.  Interesting.

Gaz is not a bad guy, he was just in a tough spot. ...

He tried to send Kaladin to his death in return for talking to him.

He encouraged Kaladin to use the side-carry when he thought it would get some of the crew killed.

He let Kaladin take the blame for doing the side-carry when it backfired even though he suggested and approved it.

He stuck the team with worse jobs when they showed some esprit de corps.

He did something to become vulnerable to blackmail.

He took direct part in a human sacrifice scheme. 

He denied Bridge 4 reinforcements he help them fail.

 

I beg to disagree.  Others were also culpable, but he could have refused the job or done it in a much more humane, responsible way. 

[Chlehrma]

1. New bridge men always run at the front and a bright lord required that something special be done. That was the lack of sandals and vest.

2. Lamaril wanted Kaladin killed and Gaz could arrange it or join a bridge crew. Gaz took the opportunity that arose and ironically, the consequences resulted in Lamaril's death. Additionally, Gaz hated himself for his role, but did not see a way out.

3. Kaladin offered to take responsibility because he saw the consequences of his actions and knew that if he did not make they offer they would have killed him on the spot. That had nothing to do with Gaz.

4. Gaz stuck them with worse jbs because Kaladin tricked him and he could not,figure out how. Gaz is petty in that regard.

5. I think when we find out what the blackmail is about it will not be a horrific thing. Remember, something a light eyes would deem worthy of blackmail is probably not the same as what a dark eyes would deem worthy. He probably stole spheres from the baskets during highstorms, or killed a low ranked light eyes, or something small like maybe he was never actually a soldier. Maybe he was a bridgeman who as wounded and passed himself off as a soldier by looting a body on the plateaus. Who knows.

6. If by human sacrifice you mean his job, then everyone who was not in a bridge crew pretty much did the same since they reaped a benefit from the seizure. Gem hearts.

7. He was ordered to get rid of Kaladin, giving him more bridgemen would work against that. He did relent and give him one when pushed.

And what more humane and responsible way is there to send men to their deaths? Keep in mind much of what he did was due to order from on high, the penalty for,disobeying would have him carrying a bridge.

When I said Gaz is not a bad person, I did not claim he was a good one. Brandon likes his characters to have depth. He strives to avoid making them into flat characatures. The Lord ruler was not entirely evil, blue fingers had good reasons for what he did, hrathen was much the same. Pick any series and you will find that the majority of characters that Brandon spends time on have multiple levels to their personalities and are not wholly evil or wholly good but somewhere in between.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Chlehrma

[hoser]

We get some Gaz point of view.  It is natural to empathize w/him.  He is not totally devoid of humanity.  He knows what he is doing is wrong and he hates himself for it.  He does it anyway.  It is surprisingly close to Szeth's situation, in some ways. 

 

We don't know what Gaz was being blackmailed for.  Apparently Teft misbehaved somehow to get busted from soldier  (maybe noncom) to bridgeman. In any military that I know of, resigning from a leadership position (noncommissioned officer) is not grounds for punishment beyond being less likely to be promoted again.  I don't understand how Lamaril could threaten Gaz with the bridge crews unless it involved some malfeasance like whatever he was being blackmailed for. 

 

Gaz apparently believes that  Lamaril had grounds for blackmailing him.  I believe that it was a bad thing and he was responsible for it.  Now he is in a bad position, but that does not alleviate his responsibility for his actions. 

1. New bridge men always run at the front and a bright lord required that something special be done. That was the lack of sandals and vest.
2. Lamaril wanted Kaladin killed and Gaz could arrange it or join a bridge crew. Gaz took the opportunity that arose and ironically, the consequences resulted in Lamaril's death. Additionally, Gaz hated himself for his role, but did not see a way out.
3. Kaladin offered to take responsibility because he saw the consequences of his actions and knew that if he did not make they offer they would have killed him on the spot. That had nothing to do with Gaz.
4. Gaz stuck them with worse jbs because Kaladin tricked him and he could not,figure out how. Gaz is petty in that regard.
5. I think when we find out what the blackmail is about it will not be a horrific thing. Remember, something a light eyes would deem worthy of blackmail is probably not the same as what a dark eyes would deem worthy. He probably stole spheres from the baskets during highstorms, or killed a low ranked light eyes, or something small like maybe he was never actually a soldier. Maybe he was a bridgeman who as wounded and passed himself off as a soldier by looting a body on the plateaus. Who knows.
6. If by human sacrifice you mean his job, then everyone who was not in a bridge crew pretty much did the same since they reaped a benefit from the seizure. Gem hearts.
7. He was ordered to get rid of Kaladin, giving him more bridgemen would work against that. He did relent and give him one when pushed.

And what more humane and responsible way is there to send men to their deaths? Keep in mind much of what he did was due to order from on high, the penalty for,disobeying would have him carrying a bridge.

When I said Gaz is not a bad person, I did not claim he was a good one. Brandon likes his characters to have depth. He strives to avoid making them into flat characatures. The Lord ruler was not entirely evil, blue fingers had good reasons for what he did, hrathen was much the same. Pick any series and you will find that the majority of characters that Brandon spends time on have multiple levels to their personalities and are not wholly evil or wholly good but somewhere in between.

Does following orders exculpate one?  I don't think so.  That way lies justifying any behavior.  My father nearly died in a concentration camp in WW2.  Many of the people who caused that situation were following orders. 

 

When Gaz follows orders that he knows are wrong, he is responsible.  If not for the blackmail situation, I believe he would not "need" the extra money and he could resign his promotion and serve some other way or find another job.  He chooses to take a job where he knowingly does bad things routinely for money, comfort and to avoid consequences he has earned.  

 

Between the lines of his orders he has discretion about how he does his job.  A good man could try to soften and make more bearable the plight of the bridgemen, acting with compassion where possible.  I don't see that in Gaz.  He seems to be on the bad side here too, bullying when he can get away with it. 

 

Re 3. Whether Kaladin offered to take responsibility is irrelevant to Gaz's moral dilemma.  As noncommissioned officer, he encouraged Kaladin to do the side-carry (for bad reasons).  Not manning up when it didn't work out is wrong.  Furthermore, he understood the bigger situation in a way that Kaladin didn't, so his responsibility is greater.

 

Re 4. We basically agree that Gaz acted badly.

 

Re 6.  I see a moral difference between a soldier serving in another unit and a leader implementing an evil policy.  Everybody up the chain of command from Gaz to Sadeas is doing bad by commission.  People outside the chain of command may benefit indirectly, but are, at worst, committing errors of omission.  It is not clear what a normal soldier in a normal unit is supposed to do.

 

Gaz does many bad things and few good things.  I would say that he falls on the bad side of a line of moral neutrality.  If to be a bad person, one has to be wholly evil, then few of Brandon's characters are bad.  That is irrelevant.  For me, Gaz is clearly worse than not good. 

 

Turning him into a victim by imagining a relatively blameless way he could have gotten into his situation is not justified by what we see in tWoK.  Once he is in that situation he still has choices, and he does not choose to improve things or get out of the situation. 

[Chlehrma]

Soldiers in our military can refuse an illegal order. If he tries to convince others that the order is illegal and they similarly refuse an order, then he can also be charged with mutiny and sedition. If a review board finds that the order is legal, then courtmartialed proceedings are initiated. The penalty for refusing an order is usually a DD. The penalty for mutiny is death--though I have not heard of this one having happened in my lifetime.

Context is everything. Gaz's accountability Is not limited by the fact that he was following orders. His accountability is limited by the fact that refusal to follow those orders meant his death in the bridge crews. His culpability is limited specifically because he must follow orders on pain of death. In other words, he is coerced into barbarity. The vast majority of Nazis at Nuremberg were using the "I was just following orders excuse" they were not saying "If I did not follow orders I would be killed." -begin tangent- The specific excuse they were using was normal for the times and had been for over a hundred years. The allies altered the laws in 1945 then applied the retroactively to crimes that had already taken place. -end tangent-

Additionally, Keeping in mind that Gaz is in the military, He can desert, but he can not quit it like a job unless he reaches the end of his tour--think Vietnam draft. Additionally, there appear to be very few roles in the armies of the High Princes. The menial labor is done by bridgement, that leaves scouting (they probably want people with depth perception), quartermasters (a cushy job for light eyes), and spearman (which he can no longer be due to his impairment). That leaves him ordering bridge crews or carrying a bridge.

As for victim hood. People often suffer the consequences for a course of action they themselves chose. In that regard, Gaz is not a victim. He is still, however, a person stuck between two impossible choices. Order others to their deaths or die with them. So he chooses the option that is the least worst for himself. He is not Kaladin or Dalinar.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Chlehrma

[hoser]

Gaz has discretion about how to execute his commands: he uses it badly.

 

While refusing an order would actually be heroic in this situation, he can choose not to act as sergeant and opt to be a grunt (or whatever they call it) without being guilty of mutiny or sedition.  He might be discharged, make less money or have to work harder.  There are a ton of jobs in any military that do not involve combat and there are many things a one-eyed person can do in real life.  In WW2, the US Tooth to Nail Ratio was 40%.  In a medieval army, it would be much higher, but there would still be many jobs available. 

 

He chooses to do an evil job to avoid paying the consequences of whatever crime he has committed and make as much money as possible. 

 

By doing bad things he put himself in a position where he does bad things routinely.  Where he has discretion, he generally makes things worse.  While not wholly evil, he is clearly a bad man.  He knows it and hates himself for it. 

 

Elantris spoilers:

While Brandon has made Gaz' motivations somewhat understandable, comparing to Elantris, he is closer to the fat trader who is briefly king than Hrathen.  Hrathen does great evil in a misguided way, but tries to minimize the suffering along the way.  Ultimately, he redeems himself heroically.  There is no comparison between Hrathen and the Gaz we've seen so far.