Grimm

Why/what was the place the Heralds endured between Desolations?

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Hey guys, wondering if anyone had any ideas on this topic; Why, for one, did the Heralds have to go to this hell-like place between desolations, and what do you think it was like? The description of fire, hooks, burning fat and bone sounded pretty horrific. 

Anyone got any theories why they were forced to endure there between desolations? To me it made sense if they had a more god-like presence; where they lived in the world bringing their respective characteristic traits to the people of Roshar: teaching leadership for example. 

Obviously something weird is going on if Tanavast's 10 heralds had to suffer in this horrible place for millennium(?) between desolations! 

Perhaps to go back to battle against the 10 'anti-heralds' in the hell like place? Doesn't make much sense though since it describes them as being tortured every day; sounds more like they're stuck. One thing about the Oathpact is that they chose their burden willingly as Jezrien says; so maybe there was some kind of deal struck that had to be made to save the world countless millennium ago?

 

Please post your insights :)

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Okay, here's my silly theory.

I think the Heralds respawned. This "hell-like place" could actually be the original homeworld for the humans who are currently in Roshar. The spell that made them into Heralds/Immortal was cast there, before it was completely taken over by some menace. So when they die in Roshar, they revive back into their place of origins.

As for why they have to return after every Desolation, it's probably one of the conditions to keep the spell active. Like from Harry Potter. The protection spell that his mother cast to protect him would only be active if he spent the summer with his mean aunt, his last blood relative. If the Heralds ditched their homeworld for another, then the contract/pact will be broken.

 

That's all I got with what I have to work with, unfortunately. I'll probably toss this theory aside when the Words of Radiance finally comes out.

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That's not a bad idea. The fact that something is tying them there is definitely high on the probability list! The idea it was the original homeland is interesting! :D 

I wonder if more worlds or realms will be introduced as the story goes on. 

As a side thought, would it be improbable to think that this Hell place could be the cognitive or spiritual realm? Maybe their torture is mental and not physical; some strange kind of bond they have with another realm. As far as we know they don't seem to be bonded to spren, so something else is definitely playing a part in how they get their power/blades and what goes on there. The shard Honor yes, but in more detail; how? 

 

What bugs me is that the heralds are the saviors of mankind (theoretically or mythically) yet they get tortured all the time!

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The prologue strongly implies physical torture, but the way Heralds reincarnate and appear out of nowhere dripping with moisture has convinced me they are not in possession of physical bodies between Desolations. I think they spawn bodies from mist, similar to shardblades. Based on this assumption, the torture is happening in the spiritual or cognitive realm.

Mistborn

There is evidence Odium is bound, though we dont know in what manner. We only have one precedent of shardic bondege: Ruin was trapped by Preservation who converted his cognitive aspect into a prison. I wonder if the Heralds were responsible for maintaining a similar prison for Odium. He would have access to hurt them since the "walls" of his prison would be formed out of their cognitive aspects. Day after day he could torment them, and the memories would stay with them forever.

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I think that they are transported to Braize, (Odium home planet) that maybe are the "Damnation" that the Vorin Religion talks about. That would make sense given the fact that Odium must take especial pleasure  torturing the Heralds, if this is the case, with the heralds in his home planet that could be best way to him do so without waste time and invesidure. in the task.

Side note Braize being a place of "flames" have a word similar in Latin brasa  that mean "ember", coincidende ? Maybe not =)

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We have WoB that if they remain on Roshar too long it will trigger another desolation.  They discovered that the trigger was if *all* of them remained, but the oathpact isnt completely broken.

 

My theory is that either Ashyn was the Tranquiline Halls and was trashed by the invasion from Braize, or else Braize was once the TH and is now damnation after being conquered.  The heralds returning to braize would support the theory of it being TH originally, otherwise I'd expect them to go back to Ashyn.

 

I suspect the oathpact was some sort of magic that ties the forces of Odium to the presence of the heralds, who stayed behind on Braize as a rearguard to protect the evacuees on Roshar.  On Braize they get overwhelmed and brutally murdered, only to reincarnate due to the magic of the oathpact.  For those who play World of Warcraft it's like getting ganked by another player who camps your graveyard to do it again when you rez :-)  Or perhaps when the opposing faction takes all of Alterac Valley *except* the final graveyeard to farm kills without ending the match.

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I believe that in WoR it is said that Braize was an old word for Damnation although I can't find the quote. (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Because of this I believe that the Heralds are transported to Braize upon death where Odium is probably the one torturing them.

This seems like it must be a requirement/result of the Othepact since not going back caused the Othepact to be broken.

 

My theory for the Tranquiline Halls/Damantion story is that it is just humanity and Honor/cultivation leaving their previous shardworld and Odium following them distorted over thousands of years. It is also possible that Odium drove humanity and Honor/Cultivation from their previous shardworld which seems like it fits well with the story.

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IIRC we have WoB that the next desolation would come when they Heralds gave up and decided to return to Roshar. This leads me to believe that their presence on Roshar gives Odium access to it, but their returning to Braize or wherever prevents him from attacking. If so, it would make sense for him to spend his spare time brutally torturing them, since he wants them to just give up and go back already. When they apparently figured out that he wouldn't be able to return properly unless all ten of them were on Roshar, they left Taln behind, who was able to withstand an unprecedented amount of suffering from Odium before finally breaking down and returning. I don't know if we have WoB, but somebody speculated that the Heralds would return when their weakest members broke down, and Taln was apparently several times stronger than that.

*Wishing I had quotes on these*

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Interesting theory.Any ideas on how this connects to Honor and Odium needing a Champion?

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I think it's not that a Desolation happens when all the Heralds give up, but when any of them give up. This explains why the last period was so long - Odium only has Taln to break, who is the strongest of them. Before, he could break any of the ten, but this time he had to break the strongest one.

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It could also be something like a self-sacrifice.  Instead of destroying the world odium gets to torture the 10 chosen.  Basically the Heralds take on odiums hatred instead of roshar.  Then 9 of them thought it was a terrible deal and gave up.

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A theory I put forth while I was reading Way of Kings.

 

Braize was originally the home of Honor and the home base of the Heralds, also called the Tranquiline Halls. Odium killed Honor and started Splintering him. He also started Splintering the Heralds. The fact that the Heralds' torture is described as having pieces of them torn away repeatedly seems to fit this. Once the Heralds break free the Desolation is started to kill the Heralds and/ or have them return once the Desolation was completed at which time he resumes Splintering them.

 

This is why Braize is known as Damnation now. It is where the now damned Heralds will return for the rest of their unnatural lives until enough Investiture is Splintered from their souls to meet Odium's needs.

 

I'm also of the opinion that the Heralds were not all from Greater Roshar originally. One per Shardworld seems appropriate as there are 10 of those.

 

One side effect of this theory is that Odium probably doesn't want the Desolations to happen at all, but it is the only way to get the Heralds to return to be further Splintered.

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All of these theories sound plausible to me. That said, ...

 

There's a niggling in the back of my mind that we are in for a paradigm shift regarding these Heralds.

 

What if they weren't really virtuous? The things we actually hear them say and see them do, except maybe for poor half-crazy Taln, don't seem all that good or right, including tWoK Prologue. What if they were actually evil, and fighting on humanity's side during the Desolations was something they agreed to do to have a break from punishment they actually deserved?

 

When they abandoned Taln to the torture, maybe the other 9 opted for entering a kind of limbo, which they are actively trying to prolong by killing nascent Surgebinders, sowing chaos, etc.

 

I'm not as strong on Cosmere theory & Realmatics as most of you are, but it just seems like the kind of thing Brandon would pull the rug out from under.

 

Do we know if Heralds can be killed, permanently? Do we know if they are, or were, actually human?

 

Not saying I believe in this quasi-theory, but it's interesting to think about, eh?

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I like how a nice time for the Heralds is living on Roshar of all places.

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Darkness. Wind from the depths of nothingness, battering him. He felt as if he were standing above the void itself, Damnation, known as Braize in the old songs. Home to demons and monsters.
-WOR Kaladin pov/ Chapter 32 The One Who Hates

 

I think the Heralds spend their time on the planet Braize (home of Odium) In WOK the place is also described as Damnation by a Herald. In my opinion it would make sense as to why they are tortured, being under Odiums thumb in his Sandbox.

Edited by WEZ313
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Umm, It's Damnation.

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Umm, It's Damnation.

Please, stop dabbling in the dark arts.

MTG-ThreadNecromancer_3198.jpg

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;) lol.

 

That's cool that we figure it's damnation. But why, as heralds of the almighty, would they be sent to some crap hole instead of somewhere sweet?

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Maybe suffering is the price for saving mankind.

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