Greyswandir Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Llarimar refuses to tell Lightsong how he died several times throughout the novel. This seems to be common practice among the priests. When Llarimar finally does tell Lightsong, there aren't any repercussions. So why do the priests withhold this valuable information as it might help the returned remember their purpose? The only answer I can see is to provide suspense. For obvious reasons I'm not satisfied with that answer especially considering that it's Sanderson we're talking about. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I believe it's just part of the Hallendren religion. Part of it may be because they believe the Returned are no longer human and should not cling to their previous lives. Another part may be that they believe the Returned need rediscover their own purpose for Returning, without help. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Bard Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The Returned are no longer human and should not cling to their previous lives. This. It's in the Warbreaker Annotations... looking for it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolacka Posted December 5, 2015 Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) Hi, first time poster, so be gentle! The priests act more as prison wardens than anything else for the Returned - and seek to remove agency from them. As examples the priests: Force Returned to listen to petitions. Force Returned to review artwork. Do not Allow Returned to leave the Court of The Gods Make the rules around which Gods can vote and their duties (e.g. Lifeless army security phrases) Obviously the whole God-King cut out tounge/ replace with younger God-King Any power the Gods have is akin to the old example of a parent giving the child a choice of bath before or after dinner. Either way they will get wet! Letting the Returned know who they were before and how they died would give the Returned potential clues as to potential allies outside the Priesthood - which would risk the Priest's power and control. If Lightsong had saved the daughter of a wealthy merchant (whether relative or not), that person would be loyal to Lightsong the man, and Lightsong could use that loyalty to have influence outside of the Court. In conjunction with Returned not being allowed outside Court I think this is the key reason - to maintain the Priest's control. This point goes a bit beyond the thread - but why the Priests control the Returned is very interesting - as I believe the Priests genuinely revere the Returned. The limitations on Returned do certainly seem to impede the chance that they find their Purpose (what is the likelihood that the action they must complete is in a small group of buildings in one part of a country/world)? A related question - do the populace of T'tellir know how the Returned died? For example do they know Lightsong died saving a drowning girl? My instinct says not, as that would risk Returned finding out. However, some of the Returned must die publically so there must be a strong propaganda campaign to keep the details secret. Also, I would expect the populace to be slow to have faith in Gods if they didn't have proof they died 'well' (bravely etc). Edited December 5, 2015 by Rolacka 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted December 6, 2015 Report Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) Well, the Returned do have the choice of whether or not to go to war against what party. That's a bit higher-caliber than "Do you want a bath before or after dinner?" Also, the doctrine of the Iridescent Tones (which as far as we can tell, relates pretty accurately why and how the Returned came back) states that they came back in order to avert something they didn't like about the future. I don't recall who exactly tells them this in Tones doctrine (Can't find the place where Scoot describes it the first time), but presumably if the Returned in question didn't care about the future they were shown by whoever it was, then it stands to reason that they wouldn't have Returned in the first place. And if they cared about the future, then it stands to reason that the triggers for them to remember what that future was would be in and around their homeland (Which in the case of the Court of Gods, was Hallandren). Hence the stream of petitions (remember that according to WoB this worked in Calmseer's case), and the art reviews and oneiromancy. Edited December 7, 2015 by Landis963 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ninja Yodeler Posted December 6, 2015 Report Share Posted December 6, 2015 Oneiromancy. Nice. Somebody likes obscure words. Dont get me wrong, I love it. After all, I did just learn a new word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Oneiromancy. Nice. Somebody likes obscure words. Dont get me wrong, I love it. After all, I did just learn a new word. Oneiromancy, n. The study of dreams in order to predict the future. This practice, rooted in mystic tradition, can be found in numerous works of fiction, from Warbreaker to Harry Potter to "100 Dreams Interpreted: What Can Your Subconscious Be Telling You About You?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolacka Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Landis, I was being somewhat hyperbolic with the bath example . That said, I was referring to the Returneds' agency over their own lives - rather than their decision making power of Hallandren. Whilst they have the power to declare war, they don't have the power to... decide to visit Idris to negotiate directly. All the arguments for and against War come from the Priests. If you like - I'm saying the Priests set the agenda and terms of all decisions the Returned can make - though the Returned can make (admittedly important) decisions within those term the Priests set. I have same understanding of Iridescent Tones, and accept your assertion that Returned are more likely to care about their homeland than elsewhere. That said, I don't accept that keeping the Returned in a small geographical location gives the best chance of averting the future. Leaving them free to travel seems more likely to me that they will find their Purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 Telling the Returned about their former lives could also cause them to fixate on those. It also becomes harder for the Returned to critique art, listen to petitions and talk about their dreams when they're running all over the city because they want to spend time with their (unremembered) family (or possibly find the person who killed them). If they go outside of the city, wandering about, they would also be unable to sit on the assembly of the gods. Knowledge of their former lives also does not always hold a clue to their purpose for Returning, case in point Lightsong: he returned to prevent Hallandren going to war (more or less), which knowledge of his former life might actually have distracted him from. If he were instead chasing the last embezzler he audited before dying, for example. That said, I don't accept that keeping the Returned in a small geographical location gives the best chance of averting the future. Leaving them free to travel seems more likely to me that they will find their Purpose. Not always. Take Calmseer, for example, she returned because she wanted to heal her daughter from a disease, she was able to do that because she was kept in the Court of Gods, listening to petitions. Any system will have its flaws in the end, arguments can be made for letting the Returned roam free, but also for keeping them sequestered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolacka Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 I'm not claiming that in all cases the travelling Returned will find their purpose and - e.g. none of the Five Scholars appears to have. Hmmm, that's a pretty compelling counter-argument to my opinion travelling Returned are more likely to find purpose actually! That said - I stand by it. I'm making some big assumptions here, but If 1. , prior to Returning, Returned can see the future and know exactly the time and place their action can make a difference (I'll call pressure points), and 2. Whilst Returned their subconscious pushes them towards that purpose, then the Priests' control would be redundant, as being fee to travel would increase the radius where they could make Pressure Points. I don't think we know enough about the theology to determine whether the Priests believe the Returned's subconcious push them towards being in the right position at the right time, but it is consistent with the belief that their subconcious manifests in dreams of the future etc. We also don't know how precise the Returned's visions of the future are, and whether they can see these with enough accuracy to determine Pressure Points. I suppose I am coming at this from the perspective of the real world in which Rule of Law and Human Rights are pretty ingrained. So you need a strong case to imprison or sequester someone for me not to see a sinister motive. If we accept that Priests primary goal is for Returned to find their Purpose then I can't reconcile why they would limit the radius the Returned are active in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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