Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[hoser]

I'm not one to defend Amaram generally. What he did was a complete betrayal of his sworn duty. That being said, Kaladin didn't leave Amaram many options. Amaram offered Kaladin the Shards, not once, but twice. If Kaladin had offered them to Amaram, surrendered them to his liege lord in front of witnesses and sworn to relinquish all claim to them, then things may have turned out differently. Instead he tried to give them to a darkeyed spearman of unknown skill and character. This was not an acceptable option.

 

We have to really look at what ownership of the Shards means to the owner. These are weapons of unprecedented power on Roshar. To own a full set of Shards is the equivalent of having super powers. Anyone capable of winning them from a Shardbearer deserves them, but to allow them to fall into the hands of an unknown is extremely dangerous. To have the person who won them basically say they don't want them, but will give them to an even more junior, potentially less loyal soldier is unacceptable.

I don't believe that Amaram ever offered the Shardblades to Kaladin.  When Kaladin first denied them, Amaram was alone, with a broken leg.  Amaram was in no position to offer them.  If Brandon hadn't needed the whole enslavement and murder scenario to happen, Koreb puts on the Shardplate, grabs the blade and parades proudly back to camp as the newest Alethi lighteyes.  In fact, if not for Brandon's dramatic needs, Kaladin would have ordered Koreb to take up the Shards, make a few practice swings, then win the battle, saving countless darkeyed lives on Kaladin's side and pretty much guaranteeing them the chance to join the war on the Shattered Plains. 

In Amaram's HQ Amaram asks Kaladin why he saved him, but his entire team moves into action based on a preexisting plan without any discussion.  Amaram doesn't offer him the Shards then either. 

If Koreb had picked up the Shards initially, the "unacceptable" would have happened and Amaram would have dealt with it.   He would have just had one less selfish, greedy option. 

[Aleksiel]

 To have the person who won them basically say they don't want them, but will give them to an even more junior, potentially less loyal soldier is unacceptable.

 

Like hoser said, Amaram didn't offer Kaladin the Shards. Not that they were his to offer anyway. The Shards were Kaladin's and he had every right to give them to whoever he wanted. Too bad his subordinates were too loyal to pick something they thought belong to Kaladin.

 

And how is something 'unacceptable' a justification for murder and enslavement? Amaram could have easily said: 'Well, if you won't take the Shard I, as your Brightlord, will take them for my spoils to do as I please.' But Amaram didn't want just the Shards. He also wanted the shiny reputation they provide. He wanted others to assume he won them and not to wonder if he had stolen them from a darkeyes.

 

As a potential KR Kaladin won't accept some meaningless excuse like Amaram trying to save many more lives by sacrificing innocent men. I really hope Brandon writes some third option, because I don't like neither the idea of revenge, nor forgiveness on Kaladin's part. 

[Moogle]

As a potential KR Kaladin won't accept some meaningless excuse like Amaram trying to save many more lives by sacrificing innocent men.

 

Really? You'd call saving lives 'meaningless'? I think Kaladin could be persuaded to understand Amaram's reasoning if Amaram had done something like save a few thousand people (we don't know if he's done this or not though). I don't think he'd forgive him, necessarily, but I think he would understand and perhaps hate him a little less. Kaladin has been struggling with the question of whether you can kill to save people, and I think Amaram might offer something for Kaladin to think about, even if Kaladin wouldn't do it himself.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Really? You'd call saving lives 'meaningless'? I think Kaladin could be persuaded to understand Amaram's reasoning if Amaram had done something like save a few thousand people (we don't know if he's done this or not though). I don't think he'd forgive him, necessarily, but I think he would understand and perhaps hate him a little less. Kaladin has been struggling with the question of whether you can kill to save people, and I think Amaram might offer something for Kaladin to think about, even if Kaladin wouldn't do it himself.

 

I called the excuse 'meaningless'. Let me just quote something from WoK on this:

 

 

 

An excuse is what you make after the deed is done, while a justification is what you offer before. I would say an excuse is something you claim, but do not believe, Nak-ali.” Hatham was using the high form of Au-nak’s name. “While a justification is something you actually believe.” 

[Gloom]

 

"What are you doing?" Amaram demanded as Kaladin passed him. "What —Aren't you going to take the blade?"

"I don't want it," Kaladin said softly. "I'm giving it to my men."

TWoKs Ch. 47 Stormblessings

 

Had Kaladin taken the Shards at this juncture instead of rejecting them, I personally feel that Amaram would not have questioned it. He would have accepted tradition and welcomed his new Shardbearer and appointed him as his personal bodyguard. To do otherwise would have been unacceptable. To double cross him after this would have been discovered and his own men would name him Shard thief.

 

 

"Why?" Amaram said. "Why did you reject it? I have to know."

"I don't want it, sir."

"Yes, but why?"

TWoKs Ch. 51 Sas Nahn

 

Even here, I believe Amaram is conflicted. He desperately wants to understand why a man would reject such power. He's trying to find a reason not to take the actions that have been recommended to him, and yes, set up before hand. He's looking for an excuse to spare Kaladin and Kaladin refuses to give him one. So what are Amarams choices? He could risk his reputation and claim the Shards for himself. This is a big risk. Amaram considers himself to be an honorable man. He takes pride in it. If word leaks out that he stole someones Shards and murdered his own men in the process, it would destroy his reputation and the moral of his army, an army of raw recruits who are, for the most part darkeyes. Darkeyes who believe that killing a Shardbearer will allow them to ascend to the ranks of the nobility. Furthermore, it puts his life in jeopardy. The belief of the darkeyes in their right to claim Shards won by them is a lynchpin to lighteyed control over the darkeyes. Should word of this theft move beyond his own army, and reach the Shattered Plains, it would cause serious problems and eventually be brought before the king himself. At this point the best Amaram would be able to hope for is that the Shards are stripped from him. So I don't believe that his actions were taken lightly or out of pure avarice.

 

What about if he just allowed Kaladin to give the Shards to Koreb? Well, why not? For one thing, at best, Korebs loyalty would be to Kaladin first, at worst, Koreb could reject any authority, put on his Shards and stalk off into the countryside. We already know that Amaram can't fathom Kaladins motives for rejecting the Shards, and we already know that Kaladin refused to explain those motives. What are those motives? How is Amaram to know? Is this spearman looking to subvert not only tradition but the very foundation upon which that tradition was built? Their entire social system could be irreparably damaged should Kaladin have an agenda. How much does Amaram really remember about the situation in Hearthstone? He said he recalled the situation, but what exactly was it that he recalled? Was it that Kaladins father was subverting Roshones authority? This situation is far more complex than some people are giving it credit for.

 

Once again, I do not condone Amarams decision. I do not excuse his decision, but I don't damnation him for it either. It was, from his perspective, an impossible set of circumstances. He even sought outside council to help him make the best decision he could for his men and his country. Then even after including more people in on the debacle, potentially placing himself at even greater risk, he still opted to claim the Shards.

 

I will grant you, if you remove politics from the situation, and look at purely from Kaladins uncomplicated perspective, Amaram is an irredeemable murder and thief. I would like to think that given the amount of political intrigue in this one book that it might be taken into consideration in why Amaram made the decision he did. That we as readers can see more shades of gray than the immediate victim of the crime.

[Aleksiel]

So, you basically blame Kaladin for what Amaram did, because it was all a big misunderstanding? 

 

Amaram saw an opportunity to steal Shards and seized it. It's that simple. Not because Koreb would leave with the Shards, in Kal's and Dalinar's chapters is said that all Shardbearers were required on the Plains. So, the main question is: how and why hasn't Amaram go there in WoK?  

[+eveorjoy]

 So, the main question is: how and why hasn't Amaram go there in WoK?  

 

A crushed leg takes time to heal from.

[Aleksiel]

A crushed leg takes time to heal from.

 

True, but Amaram was able to walk on his own when he visited Kaladin to ask  him why he refused the Shards. And 8 months had passed before Kaladin became a bridgeman and he was in Sadeas camp for a couple of months as well. 

[Moogle]

I called the excuse 'meaningless'. Let me just quote something from WoK on this:

 

An excuse is what you make after the deed is done, while a justification is what you offer before. I would say an excuse is something you claim, but do not believe, Nak-ali.” Hatham was using the high form of Au-nak’s name. “While a justification is something you actually believe.”

 

 

Amaram quite clearly had decided on the reasons before doing the deed. By this definition, it was a justification and not an excuse. And in any case, it hardly matters because no matter what word you use it doesn't change what happened. Amaram quite clearly believed (or was convinced) that taking the Shards would save lives and help his soldiers. If you want to claim Amaram was lying, you're welcome to, though the textual support for that is somewhat slim. He was obviously conflicted about what he was doing and had to be convinced by his superior, so I can't even see why people would call him greedy or selfish.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Amaram quite clearly had decided on the reasons before doing the deed. By this definition, it was a justification and not an excuse. And in any case, it hardly matters because no matter what word you use it doesn't change what happened. Amaram quite clearly believed (or was convinced) that taking the Shards would save lives and help his soldiers. If you want to claim Amaram was lying, you're welcome to, though the textual support for that is somewhat slim. He was obviously conflicted about what he was doing and had to be convinced by his superior, so I can't even see why people would call him greedy or selfish.

 

Well, I was referring to whatever new Amaram will say to Kaladin, that's why I said excuse.

 

The justification Amaram gave was that he would serve Alethkar better and

 

thousands of people may be saved by my decision

 

or not. Since he can't see the future the only thing Amaram could be certain of was that he killed his own men and enslaved the one who saved him. But I'm gonna stop here, because this isn't the topic of the thread. 

[Arondell]

Really? You'd call saving lives 'meaningless'? I think Kaladin could be persuaded to understand Amaram's reasoning if Amaram had done something like save a few thousand people (we don't know if he's done this or not though). I don't think he'd forgive him, necessarily, but I think he would understand and perhaps hate him a little less. Kaladin has been struggling with the question of whether you can kill to save people, and I think Amaram might offer something for Kaladin to think about, even if Kaladin wouldn't do it himself.

 

Actually what I'm hoping for is that in the upcoming interactions between Kaladin and Amaram is that Amaram will realize that he didn't have to murder his men in the first place.  Assuming that Amaram has any semblance of honor I would think that the realization that he, unnecessarily, murdered and enslaved the men who saved his life would have significant negative emotional and psychological impact.  Especially with the only living victim of his crime staring at him on a semi-regular basis.  I think that could arguably be considered justice enough.(barely)  I doubt Kaladin would agree though.

 

On the other hand if he ends up not feeling any more remorse over this and is only concerned with trying to maintain the cover up then he is just an honorless bastard who deserves any ill fate that comes to him.

 

In regards to the original topic there are enough reasonably perceptive people around them, including Dalinar, that I can't believe the tension between the two of them won't be noticed.   Even if both Kaladin and Amaram refuse to explain it people will be digging into this which probably won't make Amaram any happier.  Dalinar, Bridge Four, Navani, Renarin, maybe Adolin, are perceptive enough to likely pickup on the tension if both of them are present at the same time.  Probably not Elhokar though.     Even if Kaladin doesn't say anything I suspect Amaram's coverup will begin to fray around the edges and perhaps collapse completely.

[makromag]

Something I don't understand about Amaram's decision is why exactly he thinks his choice will save lives. What is that the shards enable him to do, that he could not do without? Shards are essentially mass slaughter machines that come with a bandwagon of honor, prestige and the like.

 

That he uses the shards to physically protect a thousand people is absurd (at least in my opinion, though I am not quite as sure as I make myself out to be. Blame it on the assuredness movement). So that leaves the reputation. However we know, that Amaram is already a very high-standing military general, is well regarded among his own army and has connections to the royal family. That begs the question: was the advice he got given honestly? Or did they simply want someone they have connections to to have the shards? Or perhaps he saw it as a convenient opportunity.

 

I just honestly and completely doubt his ability to "save thousands of people" could only be accomplished with these shards. Plus, these "thousands" are a number he simply pulled out of his a*s

[Arondell]

Something I don't understand about Amaram's decision is why exactly he thinks his choice will save lives. What is that the shards enable him to do, that he could not do without? Shards are essentially mass slaughter machines that come with a bandwagon of honor, prestige and the like.

 

That he uses the shards to physically protect a thousand people is absurd (at least in my opinion, though I am not quite as sure as I make myself out to be. Blame it on the assuredness movement). So that leaves the reputation. However we know, that Amaram is already a very high-standing military general, is well regarded among his own army and has connections to the royal family. That begs the question: was the advice he got given honestly? Or did they simply want someone they have connections to to have the shards? Or perhaps he saw it as a convenient opportunity.

 

I just honestly and completely doubt his ability to "save thousands of people" could only be accomplished with these shards. Plus, these "thousands" are a number he simply pulled out of his a*s

 

I think the idea is that any enemies that might attack territory he protects would be less likely to attack knowing they would face a well trained full shard bearer.  Even if attacked having a full unopposed shardbearer would enhance the chances of ending a battle quickly in Amaram's favor.

 

Given the description of the battles Kaladin participated in he could probably save as many or more lives if the soldiers under his control got better training.  It was fairly apparent that whatever training regimen Amaram's troops used wasn't very good.

[Moogle]

Something I don't understand about Amaram's decision is why exactly he thinks his choice will save lives. What is that the shards enable him to do, that he could not do without? Shards are essentially mass slaughter machines that come with a bandwagon of honor, prestige and the like.

 

Consider: Amaram is part of a group that opposes the Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods were trying to put an abusive psychopath (Shallan's father) on the throne of Jah Keved, a move which would have resulted in a lot of death. That is not the only plot the Ghostbloods have going on, they're also trying to kill Jasnah and do a bunch of other things.

 

Amaram is opposing them. They tried to kill him. By taking their Shards he can act as an assassin to kill Ghostblood members, and the very fact that he has Shards will be enough to deter a lot of attacks on him.

 

Shards also bring prestige and power. Amaram could very well make a play for Highprince and replace Sadeas. Getting rid of Sadeas' bridge crews would save tens of thousands of lives, easily.

 

There's a lot you can do with Shards. I don't find the claim that Amaram could have saved thousands of lives ridiculous at all. The question is whether he managed to do anything in the months Kaladin was a slave.

[Humph]

Kaladin wouldn't like use a shardplate or blade, this was the root of the problem fist place, and Sly wound't like either.

 

Is it possible that certain shardblades are "attuned" to specific orders of the Radiants, and this the particular blade that Kaladin won in combat was not meant for a Windrunner, but for some other Order?  I'm not sure we've seen enough to say that all particular sets of blades/plates would be abhorrent to Kal and Syl, just that those they've run across so far haven't fit the bill. 

 

It does appear that his aversion to them is affected by, but runs deeper than, his bias against lighteyes and their possessions.  But I hold out the possiblity that he could obtain (or develop!) a set in the future.  If so I would bet against a shardplate and put my vote on a shardspear.

[StormLight_Luc]

Dunno if this has been considered, but is there a thread talking about Syl's reaction to Amaram, his presence in the Shattered Plains or his acts towards Kaladin?

As discerning as Honorspren are I am curious to see what Syl will do... will she give him a chance or will she condemn Amaram?

And as for Amaram... to little info, all here is speculation but personaly I think that the whole gig is fishy. This is the guy that took Restares' advice.

Restares.

The second guy Gavilar immediatly suspected to be behind his murder while he was agonizing.

That doesn't make me feel safe, or even think that Amaram and his reasonings can be trusted.

And as far as we do know, for four years Amaram was in Althkar fighting to keep other alethi from claiming parts of Sadeas territory, that doesn't sound like fighting against a secret group (or not so secret) that we know little about.

To me, all this "for the good of Alethkar" is nothing more than a lie he came up to convince himself that what was basically a murder was the right thing to do.

People that *saved* him when all the rest ran for their lives, without looking back.

Btw can some tell me how I can quote?

Thanks

[Moogle]

And as for Amaram... to little info, all here is speculation but personaly I think that the whole gig is fishy. This is the guy that took Restares' advice.

Restares.

The second guy Gavilar immediatly suspected to be behind his murder while he was agonizing.

That doesn't make me feel safe, or even think that Amaram and his reasonings can be trusted.

 

To be fair to Restares, Gavilar appears to be single-handedly responsible for the upcoming Desolation, and of course Restares is the one opposing the Ghostbloods, which are a group who tried putting a psychopathic abusive monster (Shallan's father) on the throne of Jah Keved. I am not convinced Restares is a good guy, but Restares just does not seem like an overtly evil guy. I'm thinking he could be Taravangian.

 

To me, all this "for the good of Alethkar" is nothing more than a lie he came up to convince himself that what was basically a murder was the right thing to do.

 

Why do you think that?

 

Btw can some tell me how I can quote?

 

Click on the button that says "Quote" at the bottom right of the post you want to quote.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle

[StormLight_Luc]

Why do you think that

Well, so far as I have seen, both in fantasy as in real life, when someone uses a large unknonw entity, this time "Alethkar", as a justification for acts that are as best morally ambigous or even down right evil they all say that it's for the common good... While it's mostly for their own good.

Mankind has always been creative when it comes to justify actions even when they are downright monstrous. More so when they are monstrous.

Call it a gut feeling but my take in this is due to two reasons:

One: When Kaladin said that this wasn't for Alethkar, but for him (Amaram) this one did look like he was guilty.

(Of course we will never know unless we have Amaram flashbacks sometime in future books or somone can challenge Amaram to explain or defend himself & his actions.)

Second: was the murder of Kaladin's men and Kaladin's fate unavoidable? There was no other option?

I think not. Hell, I can think of a dozen ways that things could have been managed differently and none of them demand that the guys that went to save your life have to be killed and the one that did save your life you show him gratitude sending him to a fate that could be even worse than death.

For most of Amaram's reason to do what he did, folowing the advice of his adviseres, Restares chief amongst them, we can find a counter argument.Making in simple I'm of those that think that the easiest answer is sometimes to good one, in other words; Occam's razor.

To be fair to Restares, Gavilar appears to be single-handedly responsible for the upcoming Desolation

We don't know that.We know that the Listeners told Jasnah that he was about to do something that was "dangerous". We don't know that it had to do with the coming Desolation. They could also be lying. By what we do know the Listeners and their research for new forms are quite possibliy the reason for it.

And of course Odium comes.

and of course Restares is the one opposing the Ghostbloods,

Seriously? Where did you find that intel? And btw, I wouldn't trust this guy over those guys. After all Restares just told Amaram to kill some guys just to look good and keep his reputation while telling him to lie to everybody about Shards that he didn't win.

Restares, what an upstanding fellow

Still and as I said before, not enough information... in this case ahout a guy that has been named twice so far.

which are a group who tried putting a psychopathic abusive monster (Shallan's father) on the throne of Jah Keved.

Honestly man, lol, before pulling out the big guns and calling Shallan's father a "psychopatic abusive monster" let's wait to read WoR. I'm sure that not everything is what it seems... after all it's Brandon we are talking about here!

I wouldn't be surprised if at the end it's Shallan the high funtional psycopath here

Kidding, I love her

I am not convinced Restares is a good guy, but Restares just does not seem like an overtly evil guy. I'm thinking he could be Taravangian .

Everything is possible my friend and that's what makes Brandon work so great! After all we all know how Marsh started... and how he ended.

[Moogle]

Well, so far as I have seen, both in fantasy as in real life, when someone uses a large unknonw entity, this time "Alethkar", as a justification for acts that are as best morally ambigous or even down right evil they all say that it's for the common good... While it's mostly for their own good.

 

Can you give an example of this happening in real life?

 

 

One: When Kaladin said that this wasn't for Alethkar, but for him (Amaram) this one did look like he was guilty.

 

I interpreted the quote to mean that Amaram was guilty because he just caused Kaladin to start crying, not that it wasn't for Alethkar. Here's the quote:

 

“It’s not about Alethkar! It’s about you! Storm it, you’re supposed to be better than the others!” Tears dripped from Kaladin’s chin. Amaram looked guilty suddenly, as if he knew what Kaladin had said was true.

 

Amaram doesn't have to be guilty because he isn't doing it for Alethkar. I'm sure destroying someone's life and causing them to start crying is enough for most people to feel guilty, no matter if the reasons are good or not. We can't know for sure, of course, but I suspect we'll see that scene from Amaram's point of view for some reason.

 

Second: was the murder of Kaladin's men and Kaladin's fate unavoidable? There was no other option?

I think not. Hell, I can think of a dozen ways that things could have been managed differently and none of them demand that the guys that went to save your life have to be killed and the one that did save your life you show him gratitude sending him to a fate that could be even worse than death.

 

Well, assuming the goal was for Amaram to get the Shards and look as if he won them... yes, I can't think of many other options. Kaladin or one of his soldiers would have started blabbing and ruined Amaram's plans, whatever they were. Amaram claims that the entire plan relies on people believing he won them:

 

“I couldn’t risk them telling what they saw. This is what must be, soldier. It’s for the good of the army. They’re going to be told that your squad helped the Shardbearer. You see, the men must believe that I killed him.”

 

Why people have to believe that Amaram killed him, I don't know. It could be a ploy to scare off the Ghostbloods from attempting another assassination, or it could be a way to get into Dalinar's trust and save Alethkar before Dalinar can destroy it, there's plenty of reasons I can think of.

 

I think you could make a case that Amaram could take Kal under his confidence and tell him about all his secret plans and then command him to give him the Shards and not speak of it... but this is uncertain. Restares' men are dealing with a life and death fight with a world-spanning organization that can casually provide Soulcasters and other priceless artifacts to people in the course of accomplishing its goals. Uncertainty is a very good reason to kill Kaladin's men so as to fight the Ghostbloods better. They can't take risks.

 

There's lot of things Amaram could have done. I'm not sure if what he did was the optimal course of action. We don't have enough information.

 

 

We don't know that.We know that the Listeners told Jasnah that he was about to do something that was "dangerous". We don't know that it had to do with the coming Desolation. They could also be lying. By what we do know the Listeners and their research for new forms are quite possibliy the reason for it.

 

Whatever Gavilar did caused the spren to start bonding with people again, which Darkness believes will bring about a Desolation. It is doubtful the listeners were lying, as Darkness backs up their story about Gavilar doing something dangerous.

 

It's possible the listeners are responsible for the Desolation, but it's also quite likely they're just responsible for the "Everstorm", a never ending highstorm that completely destroys the Alethi. Again, we don't have enough information here. I am, however, going to believe Gavilar was responsible for all of this until we find information contradicting it, as it seems the simplest solution to things which explains the actions of the Parshendi and Darkness.

 

 

Seriously? Where did you find that intel? And btw, I wouldn't trust this guy over those guys. After all Restares just told Amaram to kill some guys just to look good and keep his reputation while telling him to lie to everybody about Shards that he didn't win.

 

The assassin who attempted to kill Amaram was a Ghostblood. A Ghostblood tried to kill Jasnah. Amaram is quite clearly fighting against the Ghostbloods, considering they're trying to kill him, and has extensive knowledge of the Ghostbloods, to the point where he noted that they were "growing bolder".

 

 

Honestly man, lol, before pulling out the big guns and calling Shallan's father a "psychopatic abusive monster" let's wait to read WoR. I'm sure that not everything is what it seems... after all it's Brandon we are talking about here!

 

Both Nan Balat and Shallan confirm that their father was not a saint. Balat even notes "Years of suffering their father’s brutal temper had driven Asha Jushu to vice and Tet Wikim to despair." Shallan's father's temper caused her tutors to quit. I think things are exactly what they seem here: Shallan's father was abusive, and the Ghostbloods wanted him on the throne. He alienated all the house's allies in the course of these plans... I'm just not seeing where these hidden secrets are. There's a lot of things we don't know about House Davar, but her father's temperament is not one of those things.

[Swimmingly]

On your first point... Yes. First, read tvtropes page on Knight Templar. Second, consider the arguments made by Marx, Lenin, and Stalin that communism was the best for everybody involved. Even Hitler (yes I know I just lost automatically) used the good of the Aryan race to justify much of what he did.

[Gloom]

So, you basically blame Kaladin for what Amaram did, because it was all a big misunderstanding? 

 

Amaram saw an opportunity to steal Shards and seized it. It's that simple. Not because Koreb would leave with the Shards, in Kal's and Dalinar's chapters is said that all Shardbearers were required on the Plains. So, the main question is: how and why hasn't Amaram go there in WoK?  

 

So did you actually read my post? I'm pretty sure that I said nothing of the kind.

[Moogle]

On your first point... Yes. First, read tvtropes page on Knight Templar. Second, consider the arguments made by Marx, Lenin, and Stalin that communism was the best for everybody involved. Even Hitler (yes I know I just lost automatically) used the good of the Aryan race to justify much of what he did.

 

I would not use Hitler as an example in this case. Hitler didn't use the persecution of the Jews as "justification for acts that are as best morally ambigous or even down right evil they all say that it's for the common good... While it's mostly for their own good." Germany did prosper under him (at least, until the war started), and it didn't seem like it was for Hitler's own good. Hitler lived a fairly spartan life, so far as I can find. He didn't drink, he didn't smoke, and he was a vegetarian.

 

Nor would I use Marx. Marx so far as I can tell never benefited from communism or was corrupt. He seemed to live a crappy life, always on the run from authorities so far as I can tell.

 

As to Lenin, "among his comrades, Lenin was notable for working almost ceaselessly, fourteen to sixteen hours daily, occupied with minor, major, and routine matters" according to Wikipedia. I do not think Lenin personally benefited from what he did.

 

Stalin might be an example. I'm not sure whether he honestly believed what he was doing was right or not, and he certainly benefited from his rule - he killed people he didn't like, watched foreign films, and drank quite often.

 

I'm asking for examples where the people in question justify what they do as for the greater good and are doing it "mostly for their own good". So far as I can tell, only Stalin might fit the bill there. The rest of your examples seem to be people who believed in what they were doing, and weren't doing it for selfish reasons.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Moogle

[AerionBFII]

WOW thought this was a thread on the stormlight archive turns out it's on Nazi Germany.....I'll come back later

[Lorna]

WOW thought this was a thread on the stormlight archive turns out it's on Nazi Germany.....I'll come back later

My thoughts exactly. I know its a hot subject, but can we stop flying off topic at every opportunity to discuss Amaram's ethic and moral values or lack thereof? I don't mean to sound rude, but its becoming rather tiresome. Personally, I came looking for juicy ideas and speculations about The Stormlight Archive, and would rather avoid page after pages of moral debates. Suffice it to say, there is a vast deal going on behind the scenes that we are unaware of.

 

Thank you for keeping it friendly, though. that is a relief.

 

Of this we can be sure: all is not as it seems. And the reveals will be, respectively: surprising, intriguing, infuriating, mind-blowing, jaw-dropping, and totally awesome!

 

This is, after all, Brandon Sanderson.